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Posted: 8/11/2005 4:31:16 PM EDT
I'm confused as to the real neccessity of of it, and why is it not on pistol caliber AR's?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:01:19 PM EDT
It's one of those just-in-case things.
Seems like it would be a life-saver when using your AR in crappy conditions, where there's mud,
dirt, carbon build-up etc... or your charging handle got hung up on something while loading a round.
If you're having to use it a lot at the range, something is definitlely wrong with your AR.

I wouldn't think the ammo on pistol cal. AR's has quite as much drag on it when the bolt is trying to
strip a round from the mag, but that's just my guess.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:05:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:17:35 PM EDT
If memory seves me well, which it might not, the original M16 came out in Vietnam without the FA. There was a lot of jamming and not fully seated rounds in the field, so the military made Colt and its subs go back and add the FA so the rounds could be fully seated by pushing on the FA.

Years later it was discovered that the problem was with the ammo case dimenisions and not with the rifle. Regardless the FA still is an integral part of the weapon platform.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:21:49 PM EDT
The FA is still used in training and many soldiers hit it reflexively when loading a mag or after a misfire.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:34:10 PM EDT
Damn and I thought that thing was the ON STAR button.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:39:06 PM EDT
It's not ON STAR????
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:42:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 5:42:46 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
A useless addition created by the military for no real purpose, that the AR manufacturers have continued to add to their guns just to rip us off for an extra $40 or so bucks.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:42:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMurphy:
Damn and I thought that thing was the ON STAR button.



OnStar What is you emergency, how can i be of assistance?

Holy shit help im gettting shot at

Yes sir i will Phone the police for you. Have a nice day!

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:47:55 PM EDT
Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

Yes, it has helped multiple times. There was a toipic awhile back about a soldier in Iraq whos M16 was fouled beyond operation. He eliminated a large number of threats by using his rifle like a bolt gun and slamming them home with the FA.

With that said, I use it instinctively.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:08:53 PM EDT
When you chambered a round, you are not supposed to pull the charging handle and just let it go. It's better that you ride the charging handle and set it back. When you do that, there will be some times that your round is not chambered properly or the bolt is not locked. If you pull the trigger, you will hear a click, but it won't fire.

I have a habit that every time I chamber a round, I push that FA.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

Search for word "ride"
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:19:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
A useless addition created by the military for no real purpose, that the AR manufacturers have continued to add to their guns just to rip us off for an extra $40 or so bucks.



Kinda like those Iron Sights, eh?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:19:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:22:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 6:26:47 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]

Originally Posted By TheStupid:
When you chambered a round, you are not supposed to pull the charging handle and just let it go. It's better that you ride the charging handle and set it back.





ETA: I've always been taught to never ride the charging handle. When ever I've seen it done, the bolt did not fully lock.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:38:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheStupid:
When you chambered a round, you are not supposed to pull the charging handle and just let it go. It's better that you ride the charging handle and set it back. When you do that, there will be some times that your round is not chambered properly or the bolt is not locked. If you pull the trigger, you will hear a click, but it won't fire.



No wonder you need the FA.

Here's a hint: the Army's field manual for the M16 is a better source of information on how to operate the rifle than the "ammo-oracle".
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:49:16 PM EDT
I have never heard anyone recommend riding the bolt on any auto-loading rifle before.
It better be designed to take the 'abuse' of you just letting it slam home otherwise it damn sure
won't stand up to doing its job when being used as a repeater.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:54:39 PM EDT
Now you have.


Originally Posted By SHIPSNIPE1:
I have never heard anyone recommend riding the bolt on any auto-loading rifle before.
It better be designed to take the 'abuse' of you just letting it slam home otherwise it damn sure
won't stand up to doing its job when being used as a repeater.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:56:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 6:57:05 PM EDT by scottryan]
Time to dispell all the bullshit again.

On a traditional gun, say M14, you can force the bolt shut by hitting the handle on the op rod.

On an AR-15, there is no handle directly linked to the Bolt/carrier assembly to force it foward so the foward assist is there.

People who use the arguement that an AR15 is an unreliable POS because it needs a foward assist have obviously not engaged their brain to realize the above.

Scott
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:01:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Here's a hint: the Army's field manual for the M16 is a better source of information on how to operate the rifle than the "ammo-oracle".



Are you suggesting the Mil knows more about military rifles than Internut Commandouches?

BLASPHEME!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:02:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 7:03:36 PM EDT by FUZ1ON]
The way I heard it was like this...

I had a inspector bud at a aerospace machine shop I worked in years ago...he was a vietnam era vet...but not a field hand grunt...he was a paper pusher for the army purchasing dept.....and the way he tells it is like this...

He said he had a file as thick as a phone book of letters from Colt Mfg absolutely begging the fact that if uncle sam would just use the correct burn rate powder that the M-16's would stop jamming and start functioning properly...however...uncle sam still had truck loads of powder that had a burnrate suitable for 7.62 that he insisted on using in his 5.56 loadings...and the slower burn rate powder just didn't yield/build-up enough punch/chamber pessure "quickly enough" to cycle the M16s action in a reliable fashion...but unc being unc used it despite colts most profuse insistance NOT to do so.

My bud seemed to have somewhat of a guilt-trip thing going on regarding the fact that he was at the time...not privilaged to discuss such goings on but...it was like he was cleansing his soul by disclosing such to me years later for him and years ago for me and according to him???...colts application of the "Forward Assist" was Colts answer to a non-responsive unc...

what a conversation that was.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:10:03 PM EDT
The way it was explained to me is that it is for a "systems check." Before you go into action you there is a point at which you pull back the charging handle, and LET IT GO, stripping a round from the magazine and slamming it into the chamber. So far so good.

Now, just before you kick in a door you pull back the charging handle about a half inch and look through the ejection port to see if you "see brass," to MAKE SURE a round has been chambered. You then ease the charging handle forward the half inch. NOW you use the forward assist to MAKE SURE the round and the bolt are seated.

What you DO NOT use the forward assist for is to "fix" a jam, to forcibly chamber a round that doesn't seem to want to go into the chamber. This will almost always result in a more severe jam.

This use of the forward assist for a "systems check" was explained to me by the trainer who runs www.riflesonly.com.

John
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:15:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:17:56 PM EDT
To put it short, the FA is neccessary under certain circumstances. Riding the CH is not a practical method of chambering an AR.

There.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:18:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 7:23:38 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
A useless addition created by the military for no real purpose, that the AR manufacturers have continued to add to their guns just to rip us off for an extra $40 or so bucks.



Kinda like those Iron Sights, eh?




Exactly
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIPSNIPE1:
I have never heard anyone recommend riding the bolt on any auto-loading rifle before.
It better be designed to take the 'abuse' of you just letting it slam home otherwise it damn sure
won't stand up to doing its job when being used as a repeater.



That makes sense. A self loading rifle is designed to work at high speed to eject the empty case and then, load a fresh round. Pulling the bolt back and letting it go is how a self loading firearm is designed to work.

I have a fairly low round count for the AR15 rifle: maybe 4K total, all range or match. I never had a need for the FA. I prefer the feel of the A1 slap side: no FA, no brass deflector. Now, if someone would make a slab side with A2 sights, I'd have something.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:26:51 PM EDT

TheStupid------->


Nice try.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:58:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
The way I heard it was like this...

I had a inspector bud at a aerospace machine shop I worked in years ago...he was a vietnam era vet...but not a field hand grunt...he was a paper pusher for the army purchasing dept.....and the way he tells it is like this...

He said he had a file as thick as a phone book of letters from Colt Mfg absolutely begging the fact that if uncle sam would just use the correct burn rate powder that the M-16's would stop jamming and start functioning properly...however...uncle sam still had truck loads of powder that had a burnrate suitable for 7.62 that he insisted on using in his 5.56 loadings...and the slower burn rate powder just didn't yield/build-up enough punch/chamber pessure "quickly enough" to cycle the M16s action in a reliable fashion...but unc being unc used it despite colts most profuse insistance NOT to do so.

My bud seemed to have somewhat of a guilt-trip thing going on regarding the fact that he was at the time...not privilaged to discuss such goings on but...it was like he was cleansing his soul by disclosing such to me years later for him and years ago for me and according to him???...colts application of the "Forward Assist" was Colts answer to a non-responsive unc...

what a conversation that was.




Actually, when they subistuted ball powder for the original IMR powder, it along with the orginal lightweight buffer caused the early M-16's to OVERFUNCTION, not underfunction as you state and exascerbated many extraction issues and had a negative effect on parts longevity. The issue was too much and not too little port pressure as the gas port was sized for the faster burning/lower port presure IMR powder.



Overfunction/Underfunction whatever....Please understand I'm just parroting what was told to me and your correction for accuracy is welcome....hell...my mind is getting so old that may very well have been what he said as well but...my mind was too busy being appauled by the fact that unc refused to use the correct powder...leaving our boys in the bush hunt'in AK's with new "single shot" 16's...which resulted in colts application of...."the forward assist"...over a "wrong powder issue"???...I was like...wtf?

Our boys deserved better than that...and for a good long while they didn't get it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:02:00 PM EDT by Rollyman]
Ok so I went ahead and did the ammo-oracle search that TheStupid was refering to, here is the question and answer from the AO cut and pasted for all. I highlighted the comment in debate in red. What do you all think?


Q. I chambered a round in my AR and then unloaded it later. The primer has a small dent in it, apparently from the firing pin. Should I be worried about this? Won't that cause a slam-fire? Should I switch to a Titanium firing pin?
A gas-operated semiautomatic operates on gas bled from the barrel. This gas is channeled to the bolt operator, which blows the bolt open and ejects the spent shell casing. A heavy spring then returns to bolt carrier to the closed and locked position on the next round. In the case of weapons with free floated firing pins (SKS, AR-15, etc.), the inertia of the firing pin carries it forward and it strikes the primer as the bolt closes. (The "slam"). Generally this will dimple the primer and leave a small indent. This isn't anything to worry about as primers for centerfire .223 and 5.56mm are pretty "hard" and aren't likely to be set off by this impact.

Early M-16s had a problem with slamfiring because of the firing pin design. Eventually Colt redesigned the pin to be lighter and therefore carry less energy into the primer.

Slam-fires are pretty rare in modern ARs provided they are well maintained but they can be caused by a broken or protruding firing pin, foreign matter on the bolt face that is carried into the primer, foreign matter in the firing pin assembly that prevents it from retracting sufficiently, overly soft or poorly seated primers, or other malfunctions.

As for titanium firing pins, they are probably not worth the headache. Indeed they are lighter and may reduce the already small chance of slamfires, but titanium also does not handle impacts well and can be brittle. A broken or cracked titanium firing pin is a lot more likely to cause a slamfire than a regular pin.

It should be noted, however, that repeated chambering of the same round increases the likelyhood of a slamfire, or of a hangfire (slow to ignite) or misfire (failure to ignite) due to damage to the round's primer. If you chamber and clear your rifle on a regular basis, make sure you change out the top round so that you don't rechamber the same round more than once or twice.

Finally, always point your rifle in a safe direction when chambering live ammo. As with any machine, there is always the possibility that something will go wrong and the round will fire. If you are chambering your home-defense gun, ride the charging handle and use the forward assist to lock the bolt forward, always keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:18:26 PM EDT
The red high light is intended for rounds that have been repeatedly chambered. Or atleast that's what I get out of it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:18:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Here's a hint: the Army's field manual for the M16 is a better source of information on how to operate the rifle than the "ammo-oracle".



Are you suggesting the Mil knows more about military rifles than Internut Commandouches?

BLASPHEME!!



DO YOU EVER, EVER HAVE ANYTHING USEFUL TO SAY!?!?!?!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:54:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

DO YOU EVER, EVER HAVE ANYTHING USEFUL TO SAY!?!?!?!



Not the Crotch-Commando again!

TARD, The point is don't believe everything you read on the net. Just because I don't express myself in a SUCK - ASSED manner doesn't mean I'm not making a legit point!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:11:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

DO YOU EVER, EVER HAVE ANYTHING USEFUL TO SAY!?!?!?!



Not the Crotch-Commando again!

TARD, The point is don't believe everything you read on the net. Just because I don't express myself in a SUCK - ASSED manner doesn't mean I'm not making a legit point!



Fair enough. Though seriously, you always seem to post for the sake of posting. Your post count certainly reflects that.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:55:04 PM EDT
I personally think the FA is a mandatory piece of equipment.

I've used mine before, and my brother's M16 clone (slab-side upper) is in need of one. It has put many rounds 8/10ths of the way into the chamber and it will stop. A FA would have solved this, but all we can do is eject the shell, and try again.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:00:41 PM EDT
The FA comes in handy for low-noise charging. In this situation, riding the charging handle lessens the noise.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:48:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
The way it was explained to me is that it is for a "systems check." Before you go into action you there is a point at which you pull back the charging handle, and LET IT GO, stripping a round from the magazine and slamming it into the chamber. So far so good.

Now, just before you kick in a door you pull back the charging handle about a half inch and look through the ejection port to see if you "see brass," to MAKE SURE a round has been chambered. You then ease the charging handle forward the half inch. NOW you use the forward assist to MAKE SURE the round and the bolt are seated.

What you DO NOT use the forward assist for is to "fix" a jam, to forcibly chamber a round that doesn't seem to want to go into the chamber. This will almost always result in a more severe jam.

This use of the forward assist for a "systems check" was explained to me by the trainer who runs www.riflesonly.com.

John



The way I was taught to do it, was to pull the mag and make sure the round on top is on the opposite side as it was before, meaning one has been stripped off.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:50:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
The FA comes in handy for low-noise charging. In this situation, riding the charging handle lessens the noise.




If you don't have one, you can ease a case in by pushing on the carrier with your thumb or smacking the muzzle. That tends to make the carrier pop forward.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:07:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:15:13 PM EDT
I know several knowelegeable shooters that say to NEVER use the FA. I kinda agree. It takes simply jammed to all FU**ed up. I cannot think of a time when it saved more trouble than it caused. FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:18:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By huck:
I know several knowelegeable shooters that say to NEVER use the FA. I kinda agree. It takes simply jammed to all FU**ed up. I cannot think of a time when it saved more trouble than it caused. FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!




They sound pretty knowledgable!

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:18:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By huck:
I know several knowelegeable shooters that say to NEVER use the FA. I kinda agree. It takes simply jammed to all FU**ed up. I cannot think of a time when it saved more trouble than it caused. FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!


huh?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:45:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
for the naysayers,

please explain why the final version of the AR-10 had a forward assist given that it was of a different calibre, tested by a different military(ies) and built by a different company?



Perhaps that was why when Colt was looking for a fix to a problem that is almost entirely cured, they went back to a previous design?

Does a current production AR10 have one? No, it doesn't.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:59:06 PM EDT
what is that dent in the right side of the bolt carrier used for?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:58:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 3:23:24 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:43:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Time to dispell all the bullshit again.

On a traditional gun, say M14, you can force the bolt shut by hitting the handle on the op rod.

On an AR-15, there is no handle directly linked to the Bolt/carrier assembly to force it foward so the foward assist is there.

People who use the arguement that an AR15 is an unreliable POS because it needs a foward assist have obviously not engaged their brain to realize the above.

Scott



Owning both an M1A and an AR15, I've had both fail to feed after shooting a lot. The FA on the AR and being able to slap the bolt forward on the M1A is a nice thing to have. It's just a different engineered answer to the same problem.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:51:14 AM EDT
Yay!!!! Seven more pages on why the FA is needed or not needed.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:48:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Yay!!!! Seven more pages on why the FA is needed or not needed.


Yeah but Lumpy's comments are always good for a chuckle.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:55:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 7:00:36 AM EDT by tweeter]
Forward assists are pretty useless unless you're doing an EIB (Expert Infantryman's Badge) competition, then it's just another necessary step.

I've never HAD to use it, I just do because it's the way I was taught.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:12:45 AM EDT
The forward assist is there to make sure the bolt is seated correctly, which leads to proper weapon operation and reduces the chance of failure
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:44:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:
The forward assist is there to make sure the bolt is seated correctly, which leads to proper weapon operation and reduces the chance of failure



The man only has 5 posts and got it 100% correct. My hat is off to you sir!
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