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Posted: 10/3/2004 7:05:14 AM EST
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 1:50:09 PM
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While there are plenty of reputable dealers that wouldn't commit fraud, my experience involves one who was less than ethical, advertising for sale a gun (AR-15 6920) which he apparently did not even have in stock. He even posted pictures of the gun and box, which I confirmed was the one (with a desirable low serial number) I would be getting if I won the auction. I won the auction, sent my money, and was later told the gun was on backorder. I requested an immediate refund, but now for over two weeks, have been told by the dealer that "Colt will soon be shipping". The dealer is now running a new auction with the same picture again, and is advertising the gun which I thought I won, on multiple sites!

I contacted Colt and advised my situation. The Colt rep I talked to said they would not approve of Colt Authorized Dealers selling LE guns to the general public, regardless of the ban sunsetting, and as far as introducing any new product for the civilian market: if at all, probably not until current AR-15 stock had been "significantly reduced". The Colt rep actually seemed to have more of an issue with me attempting to purchase a (former)LE gun, and made no comment on the actions of the dealer!

My greatest concern is all the dealers "selling" LE AR-15's that they may not have. Some dealers are taking advantage of the feeding frenzy resulting from the AWB expiration, and taking FULL deposits for guns that they don't have and don't know if they ever will!

If Colt says no civilian sales, are these dealers planning to jeopardize their Authorized Dealer status, or refund people's money in order to be in compliance with Colt's policy?

Or maybe hold onto people's money until they get sufficiently motivated, if at all, to return it???????????????????

No matter how you slice it, taking full price for a gun you don't have is not good business, especially when you intentionally or not, fail to mention this. Mad at Colt? Yes! But madder still at a Dealer willing to lie and misrepresent in order to profit!




Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:20:23 AM EST
If you paid by credit card, you can call your company and have them take care of it. Also, if the dealer did not state in the auction that the rifle would be on backorder, contact the auction site and see if they can assist in any way.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:25:25 AM EST
Gunbroker?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:25:53 AM EST
Thanks for the advice but I stupidly sent certified funds! Also the auction site dumped me after he reported me for sending rude and threatening e-mails. I was a newbie to the site and he was a "reputable member", so it didn't take long for them to decide who to side with!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:28:44 AM EST
Not good. Looks like all you can do is wait, or maybe threaten them, with a call from thier states attorney generals office? What auction site? Do you have the link to the auction?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:32:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 8:12:08 AM EST by icantdance]
Hey Fuzzy W ...

If you have all the paperwork pertaining to the purchase, I'd pursue it till kingdom come. I'd talk to any known suppliers this person uses, I'd call, fax, email this person constanly, talk to anyone in his company (if he has any employees, etc.) Tell them what he did and make trouble for him. Be a BiG pain in his you know what ... be relentless, but respectful. This person has
commited "ethical fraud" and it's your money. Read all the clauses on the paperwork on the said purchase, leave no stone unturned.

Colt Manufactoring can sour a glass of fresh milk at a free breakfast. They are into selling cleaning kits to the "common people" .... otherwise, until we get a change in the socialist government there, forget about any help from them. he
I have a source near me in West Palm Beach, Florida that I've delt with and am very satisfied with all my AR purchases


http://www.hdps.org


Hope you get your money back, and if not money, a resolvement.

Be willing to forgive no matter what happens.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:10:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 8:26:18 AM EST by _DR]
If it gets uglier (if that is possible) here are a few thing you can let him know you will do:

1. File a complaint with the FTC: FTC Complaint form

2. File a complaint with the BBB for his area (although IMHO the BBB is worthless)

3. Write a letter to the BATF eps@atf.gov

If that fails you could try pursueing a fraud complaint for attempting to sell the same firearm twice to more than one individual with the FTC and BATF. Probably won't get results but the dealer might raise an eyebrow and refund your money as no dealer likes a BATF audit and numerous complaints may trigger one. You could also call the local BATF office in his immediate area and let them know he is auctioning the same weapon to multiple individuals, if you have an address for him.

Search the boards, see if you can others who have been scammed by him and band together with your actions.

But above all, keep it all legal, professional, and don't make any threats you don't intend to carry out. Give him time to respond before each attempt to contact to request a refund. You may want to consult a fraud lawyer to see what your rights are, initial consultation usually about $40.

Hope you get you money back.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:17:53 AM EST
Thanks for all the advice.

I'll post the outcome.

I hope my post allows others not to repeat my same mistake!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:19:16 AM EST
You verified the serial number as the one you paid for? BATF, DEA, FCC, WTF, SHTF and any other alphabet agency I could dream up would be getting the complaint.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:32:19 AM EST
Tagged
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:48:54 AM EST
Did you mail him your payment? If you did, couldn't you get the USPS involved on a charge of mail fraud? From what I hear the Post Office takes a dim view to mail fraud.



Vulcan94
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:14:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 9:15:27 AM EST by SHIPSNIPE1]

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:
Did you mail him your payment? If you did, couldn't you get the USPS involved on a charge of mail fraud? From what I hear the Post Office takes a dim view to mail fraud.



Vulcan94


That is a fact! They helped me a while back when some dude was trying to rip me off over some R/C equipment I sold..... and he received! Just think of a Fed. Govt. Agency actually protecting the good guys. Usually, it starts off with a visit from a postal inspector. Just get all your duckies in a row and go visit the Post Office.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:24:17 AM EST
More reasons to work with local FFL and Gunshops.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:25:18 AM EST
Thats a good idea! I think it is considered mail fraud. But I really think you should post the auction of this guy, if he is claiming he has something he does not! It can stop other people here from falling in the same trap.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:28:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:
Did you mail him your payment? If you did, couldn't you get the USPS involved on a charge of mail fraud? From what I hear the Post Office takes a dim view to mail fraud.



Vulcan94

This is a huge myth going round on the net. The PO won't do shit unless the seller contacted you via the mail. Even then, don't hold your breath.

You need to contact the police and ATF field office in his city, work with them.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:46:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By die-tryin:
More reasons to work with local FFL and Gunshops.



Or reputable dealers here on AR15.com
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:53:58 AM EST


If Colt says no civilian sales, are these dealers planning to jeopardize their Authorized Dealer status, or refund people's money in order to be in compliance with Colt's policy?



Colt cannot force dealers to sell only to Law Enforcement. Their "policy" means nothing.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:56:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By die-tryin:
More reasons to work with local FFL and Gunshops.



+1
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:58:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By ToddMarek:


If Colt says no civilian sales, are these dealers planning to jeopardize their Authorized Dealer status, or refund people's money in order to be in compliance with Colt's policy?



Colt cannot force dealers to sell only to Law Enforcement. Their "policy" means nothing.



Sure they can. They can do whatever they want. There is no law that says that they have to sell any product to anyone. It wouldn't be terribly difficult for Colt to find out who's selling to non-LE, and simply not send that dealer any more rifles.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:09:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 10:10:42 AM EST by GoGo]

Originally Posted By die-tryin:
More reasons to work with local FFL and Gunshops.



Yeah, the most complete store within 100 miles of me (quite some selection too) will not sell lowers only due to customers being able to build illegal things and it "comes back to them". This said after the AWB expired. Also, they are not willing to order LEO stuff without department letterhead. These responses came in the friendliest of friendliest conversations between a former good customer (me)- the kind that walks in and says I'll take it without haggling- and the counter guy. On a bright note I have a local guy who is just interesed in a transfer fee. At $35 it's a little steep, but I can order any rifle and pay for it direct at dealer cost. He does not care to mark it up and is not interested in chasing FFL's all over kingdom come. He charges for the copy of his which is de-facto the transfer fee. Oh yeah- when I picked up my stuff last week celebrating the sunset the call to my voice mail said- "your toys are here". Way cool guy. I have finally found my go-to guy. I have had it with three previous shops who continually take $ for product at sticker, $ for range time from a person who always obeys the rules, $ from buying my range ammo there- then charging me $60 at the time of pick-up on a transfer. There was an initial price, then it went up by phone in telling me it was there, then it went up when I picked it up. Then I had to listen to how they couldn't beleive how much I paid for "a piece of chit". Just for the guy who was so damn loyal to his local shop. F'em! USA mags for $50 on the shelf?!?!?!? The vendors here are good people. Give them your business. Just my .223 cents. YMMV- and I'm sure it does.

GoGo
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:00:05 AM EST
Gee, 1 post. Lighten up, do you want the Colt's LEO rifle or not. Just wait for him to fill the backorder , or get in line with the rest of those that want an LEO marked Colt for their safe queen collection. At least you are ahead of me. Getting the alphabet folks and Colt involved is like crapping in your own nest. Now if he does not come through with the rifle, in say 30 days, then I would begin legal action.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:16:39 AM EST
Not the point M-Forgery! If he bid for an item and was not informed he was bidding to be put on a WAITING LIST for a rifle, he was lied to, plain and simple. If you let people lie and push you around, they will do it!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:27:17 AM EST
If this is factual info I would like to know who the dealer is.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:34:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By M-Forgery:
Gee, 1 post. Lighten up, do you want the Colt's LEO rifle or not.



BUZZ!! Wrong answer. He paid for a product with the understanding that the item was in stock. Since the dealer didn't have the product, its considered fraud. I would suggest that he contact the ATF and file a report with them and see what the delaer sayd then. You NEVER sell a product without having stock UNLESS you give the potencial buyer notice of such fact.

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:53:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:
Did you mail him your payment? If you did, couldn't you get the USPS involved on a charge of mail fraud? From what I hear the Post Office takes a dim view to mail fraud.



Vulcan94

This is a huge myth going round on the net. The PO won't do shit unless the seller contacted you via the mail. Even then, don't hold your breath.

You need to contact the police and ATF field office in his city, work with them.



The USPS WILL help you on this one. When it comes down to it the mail will be used in some way. How do you suppose the guy will get a copy of an FFL so he can ship is the first thing that comes to mind. I had a long drawn out battle with a guy that was selling M14 mags here on the EE and over on Battlerifle. It involved myself and a few others. I didn't mail the guy anything. I paid with Paypal and the USPS still was the first one to send him a letting informing him of a pending investigation. I filed complaints with Paypal, USPS, and the Attorney General of the state in which he lived. After being contacted by the above mentioned he was more than willing to get my money back to me. The more waves you make, the more wet the guys pants will become Terry
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:35:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 12:43:19 PM EST by XM777]

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By ToddMarek:


If Colt says no civilian sales, are these dealers planning to jeopardize their Authorized Dealer status, or refund people's money in order to be in compliance with Colt's policy?



Colt cannot force dealers to sell only to Law Enforcement. Their "policy" means nothing.



Sure they can. They can do whatever they want. There is no law that says that they have to sell any product to anyone. It wouldn't be terribly difficult for Colt to find out who's selling to non-LE, and simply not send that dealer any more rifles.



Actually easier than that and what both Colt and Beta has done in the past. If you are a Dealer and you want x number of guns or magazines for LE/Military sales then you must produce a valid LE/Military Purchase Order for x number of guns or magazines. The Dealer will be supplied with exactly that number, no more, no less.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:13:19 PM EST


Gee, 1 post. Lighten up, do you want the Colt's LEO rifle or not. Just wait for him to fill the backorder , or get in line with the rest of those that want an LEO marked Colt for their safe queen collection. At least you are ahead of me. Getting the alphabet folks and Colt involved is like crapping in your own nest. Now if he does not come through with the rifle, in say 30 days, then I would begin legal action.


.......Gee, I guess you missed the part about the lies and deception! I don't mind having my order taken and getting in line with everyone else. I DO MIND being told I am buying a specific item when that is a bold face lie.

If it was your $900, how patient and understanding would you be? BTW, it's quite apparent that my order will probably be the last to be filled, just prior to hell freezing over, since the going price on 9/23 when I won the auction is vastly different from what the dealer can get now!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:36:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/28/2004 5:47:42 PM EST by niceguymr]
.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:38:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By fuzzywuz:
Thanks for all the advice.

I'll post the outcome.

I hope my post allows others not to repeat my same mistake!



If this is inded your intent, then you should post the name of the dealer, the auction site, and the username of the dealer.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:46:10 PM EST
Like Maddogkiller, TNRonin and myself have asked, WHAT DEALER??????
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:58:52 PM EST
Fuzzywuz I am sorry to hear that I hope it all works our for you very shortly.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:07:33 PM EST
As far as posting the name of the dealer - SORRY -NOT GOING THERE!!!!

I'm not going to risk the time, cost and inconvenience of defending against a libel suit, even though he has no standing and I would win. Nothing prevents him from filing and inconveniencing me and I don't need any more headaches than I already have.

I've provided a public service of warning people to be sure of who they are dealing with before instead of after, and that should suffice.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:45:25 PM EST
Fuzz, then I have to say this, I'm calling BS on this story. If all the facts that you are stating are true you will face absolutely NO consequences. In fact he wouldn't/couldn't find a lawyer to take the case against a private individual over something that is truely stated.

So, if you don't want to "go there", then this story is BS. And this is not a flame, nor intended to start one.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:53:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/28/2004 5:47:59 PM EST by niceguymr]
.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:59:54 PM EST
Fuzz, then I have to say this, I'm calling BS on this story. If all the facts that you are stating are true you will face absolutely NO consequences. In fact he wouldn't/couldn't find a lawyer to take the case against a private individual over something that is truely stated.

So, if you don't want to "go there", then this story is BS. And this is not a flame, nor intended to start one.


Call it what you want. I posted to vent, and in the process if I help someone think before sending money on a "deal too good to be true", so be it.

BTW, are you a lawyer? Sounds like you know a lot more about the law than I do. This is not a flame, nor intended to start one.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:06:18 PM EST
No probs, I'm an ex-LEO and probation officer that WAS going to be a lawyer (wifey was pissed when I told her). I preped for it in college, did the usual papers for senior studies, but after I got to working with the turds I couldn't stand the thought of being one of the people the jokes are made about. I was also afraid I would slit my own throat when shaving if I became a lawyer.

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:28:27 PM EST
Fuzzy,

How about posting what state the dealer is from.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:03:34 PM EST
[Mr. Rogers]

Can you say, "Only use a credit card when buying something on-line"?

I knew you could.

[/Mr. Rogers]


Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:10:40 PM EST
I will only use a credit card when buying on line, despite having to pay 3% more.

I'd rather people be honest, but so much for idealism.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:29:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By DOA:

Originally Posted By die-tryin:
More reasons to work with local FFL and Gunshops.



Or reputable dealers here on AR15.com



Amen to that bro!
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:29:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:
Did you mail him your payment? If you did, couldn't you get the USPS involved on a charge of mail fraud? From what I hear the Post Office takes a dim view to mail fraud.



Vulcan94

This is a huge myth going round on the net. The PO won't do shit unless the seller contacted you via the mail. Even then, don't hold your breath.

You need to contact the police and ATF field office in his city, work with them.



I agree. I had a problem with a seller awhile back, and talked to the Post office, and nope, they didn't want anything to do with it. Even the Postmaster of the local office said no, no case. Not unless he solitcited you by mail.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:37:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 10:33:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By fuzzywuz:
As far as posting the name of the dealer - SORRY -NOT GOING THERE!!!!

I'm not going to risk the time, cost and inconvenience of defending against a libel suit, even though he has no standing and I would win. Nothing prevents him from filing and inconveniencing me and I don't need any more headaches than I already have.

I've provided a public service of warning people to be sure of who they are dealing with before instead of after, and that should suffice.




Until you tell us what site you bid on the gun and what dealer you were dealing with, someone else may fall into the same trap as you did. Your post is helping no one without this information. Your irrational fears are preventing others from making the same mistake. There is no liable case if all you do is state the facts of the situation.



Link Posted: 10/5/2004 1:39:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 2:38:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By fuzzywuz:
I will only use a credit card when buying on line, despite having to pay 3% more.

I'd rather people be honest, but so much for idealism.

How do sellers get away with this? The CC companies clearly have a policy that prohibits this AND PayPal prohibits it in their TOS. Sellers can usually get around it by offering a discount for cash or MO but they cannot up the price.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 3:37:00 AM EST
This thread was usless.

fuzzywuz: Hey guys don't let this happen to you, this guy is bad! Stay away from him, run! I just don't want this to happen to you guys.

AR15: Who? Who should we stay away from?

fuzzywuz: Won't tell ya.





Dude go away.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:06:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
This thread was usless.

fuzzywuz: Hey guys don't let this happen to you, this guy is bad! Stay away from him, run! I just don't want this to happen to you guys.

AR15: Who? Who should we stay away from?

fuzzywuz: Won't tell ya.


hinking.gif


Dude go away.





+1
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:13:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 4:14:06 AM EST by TNRonin]
Guys, until I hear more Troll behavior from this guy I will reserve judgement. Please do the same, people make mistakes in etiquette, maybe he needs to just learn the waters on here.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:24:41 AM EST
I'm calling bull s**t on this one to. (I smell a big fat RAT )The truth is not considered slander ask any attorney.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:42:32 AM EST
Hey fuzz, I wonder if you have another sign on name here? I see you are a recent member, with 4 posts. Hmmmmmm........

Selling Colt LEO rifles perhaps? Limiting the competition perhaps?

Link Posted: 10/5/2004 4:48:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
This thread was usless.

fuzzywuz: Hey guys don't let this happen to you, this guy is bad! Stay away from him, run! I just don't want this to happen to you guys.

AR15: Who? Who should we stay away from?

fuzzywuz: Won't tell ya.




Dude go away.



My EXACT thoughts when I read this dilwads post for the 1st time a couple days ago.

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