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Posted: 12/30/2006 8:44:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Out of all that, you never mentioned which scopes were used.
If you ruled out everything, like making sure it's mounted securely, etc. it may be the scopes themselves. The first one, if it went from shooting great to immediately going to hell sounds like your scope might have gone tits up. If you're using low-quality scopes, it's not uncommon. If you replaced it with another low-quality scope it may already have gone to crap before you even mounted it. What kind of scopes were they and what mount? |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 8:56:37 AM EDT
[#2]
First scope was a pretty low end Barska scope, with Barska rings. Riser was a pretty cheap one I got off ebay. Second scope is an NcSTAR model #SEFS3950R. The new NcSTAR came with rings, but I am still using the Barska rings. Should I try the new ones?
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Posted: 12/30/2006 9:02:46 AM EDT
[#3]
Cheap scopes and rings are yer problem
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Posted: 12/30/2006 9:05:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Defintely....you could also try some good reputation scopes like: Zeiss, swarowsky, Nickel Supras, leupolds, Trijicons, etc etc etc. If it's german it's good, if it's american there are a lot of chances that you are talking about acceptable optics and the best mechanics throughout the world, on the other hand, if it's chinese, it is most definitely, well, cheap. I hope that helps. HUNTER. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 9:05:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Is your barrel / barrel nut tight?
Take the scope off and shoot at 50 yds with iron sights and see what happens. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 9:28:18 AM EDT
[#6]
Where do I check my barrel nut? My friend in the marines said one of their guys had a simalar problem and they found it due to a loose barrel.
I have taken off the scope riser and the barska rings, and have installed just the new rings, which are just high enough to see over the front post so the riser is not needed. I will try shooting with the new rings, and also with just the open sights to make sure it is not the gun, and just something with the scope mount. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 9:35:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Unless the rings you had had obvious weak points or fractures, replacing your rings isn't going to do anything as long as they remain tight. You're using POS scopes, try them on an another rifle (a .22 or something) and see if you have similar issues. You said your rifle has always shot accurately and then stopped shooting accurately. As long as you haven't been messing with your barrel nut barrel, it's fine. A quick way to check would be to see if the gas tube is pressed one way or another against the hole in the upper receiver. Your barrel isn't the problem, your rings most likely aren't the problem-the problem is most likely the POS scopes you've been using. Like someone mentioned, shoot it with irons and then try the scopes on another rifle. I'd be willing to bet money that the scopes are the problems. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 1:56:58 PM EDT
[#8]
I talked with my friend that was in the special forces, he said he suspects the barrel nut if both scopes were doing the same thing. But he did give me a very nice one piece scope mount and scope to try. I will get up to the range and try that out in the next couple days. If that's not it, it's probably the barrel nut, and hopefully not something worse. Let me know if anyone has any other ideas at what this could be
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Posted: 12/30/2006 4:38:17 PM EDT
[#9]
it's not the barrel nut you nut....it's the shitty scopes you keep using. Neither of those scopes have a good track record for durability. Sounds like you just ran them into the ground with your ar. Ever see a loose barrel nut? Did it just magically loosen with the gas tube in the way? Gimme break..
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Posted: 12/31/2006 3:56:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Kind of doubt its the scopes especially if you used tow different types. Don't know about the barrel nut but its probably a good place to start along with the rings, and riser etc.
Not likely two different scopes from different companies are bad. JR |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 9:48:22 AM EDT
[#11]
I had this happen a few times, once because I broke a scope mount (It was on a .50 so I wasn't surprised) and the other time was the mount had worked loose. Retightening the base fixed it right away.
If your rings are good then my money is one a bad scope. One other thing. Make sure your flash suppressor isn't loose or (in extreme cases) actualling hitting the bullet as it exits. |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 10:02:16 AM EDT
[#12]
I agree, I would really be surprised if it were both scopes that were bad. Especially with the brand new one. Bases rings and everything is plenty tight, I had my friend in the special forces inspect it and he says the mount is very legitimate and should have no problems. I am going to go shoot it with his scope and mount on it, and if it's still not working, I'll have to take it in and make sure the barrel nut and flash surpressor are on tight. I just kind of doubt it would be the barrel nut or the flash surpressor because it's such a new gun, and has been very well taken care of, and used very lightly.
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Posted: 12/31/2006 11:43:34 AM EDT
[#13]
If you are in denial that it is quite possibly going to be your scopes, then try them on another rig. The track records on both scopes are abysmal and it's not unheard of to have a problematic one straight from the box.
Once again, how is the barrel nut going to magically work loose with the gas tube in the way? How is your flash suppressor going to "work loose" unless you've been cranking on it? Can you turn it with your hand? If you can't then it's on there tight enough. I know your "Special Forces" friend told you it's the barrel nut, but most Spec Ops guys I know (I stay in touch with more than a few over the course of classes over the years) are trigger pullers-they're not armorers. |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 11:59:04 AM EDT
[#14]
<---Not surprised that two scopes are bad if they are Barska and NcStar!
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Posted: 12/31/2006 12:56:14 PM EDT
[#15]
I just had a similar experience with the scope I bought. It turned out to be the mount and rings that came with the scope. Long story but I replaced the rings and mount with some quality units and the problem is gone. But that is the same thing everyone else told you too.
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Posted: 12/31/2006 1:31:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Well my Barska scope and rings worked wonderfully for months, and all of a sudden are not. So I do know that the rings will work. But I have tried another set of rings, both with the riser and without. I just wont know for sure until I get to the range tommorow and shoot it with my friends scope and mount. |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 2:04:18 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 12/31/2006 2:17:53 PM EDT
[#18]
He just got back from 8 months in Iraq, but again, i will not know until i shoot with his Scope and mount tomorrow. If his work on my gun, then I will have to invest in some serious optics.
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Posted: 12/31/2006 2:32:12 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 12/31/2006 5:43:15 PM EDT
[#20]
If your weapon is working correctly, I think you need a better scope. I know there are many optics out there for you to choose from but usually it comes down to the funds we have available. I have a 20" Rock River Varmint gun and I am using the super Sniper 10x42 scope.link It is a good scope for the money.About $299.link1 Sometimes you can find a slightly used Super Sniper scope a little cheaper here(@249):link2 |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 7:07:03 PM EDT
[#21]
It may not have magically loosened, perhaps it was like that from the factory. I had an upper from a 'good' manufacturer with a loose barrel. I fought it for a long time thinking it was my optic, the mount, me, etc. One day after being ready to chuck the entire rifle across the desert and leaving it I grabbed onto the FSB and the upper receiver and gave them a twist. To my suprise the barrel was indeed loose in the receiver. I suspect my upper was never torqued all the way down at the factory, could be a similar case here. |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 8:00:35 PM EDT
[#22]
The problem with the loose barrel nut theory is that the poster stated it had been working fine for a while then accuracy suddnley went to shit. If the barrel nut had been loose from the assembly line (whether factory or home) then the problem would have been from the start and not after X number of rounds fired. The problem lies else where as a barrel nut can not come loose with the gas tube installed. |
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Posted: 12/31/2006 8:02:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Reading is fundamental I guess. I stand corrected as far as the OP's problem is concerned. |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 5:36:18 AM EDT
[#24]
+1 In optics you always get what you pay for. |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 9:26:18 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 1/1/2007 12:56:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Okay, went to the range today, and shot my weapon with my friends scope and mount on it. He didn't want me adjusting it, but I just wanted to make sure it was shooting consistantly. I started at 25 yards, and was consistantly 2 1/2 inches high and left.
Then I shot at 100, and was about 14 inches high and left, but it was consistant. Is it normal to have that 12 inches of difference between 25 and 100 yards? I wasn't sure about that, but at least it was consistant. Then I put my NcSTAR scope in his mount. I quickly adjusted it to be dead on at 25 yards. However, when I shot at 100 yards with my scope in his mount I wasn't even on paper. But I only had a few shots at 100 before I ran out of ammo. But I don't understand how I can be consistantly dead on at 25 and not even on paper at 100. |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 12:58:52 PM EDT
[#27]
are you using one of those retarded rails that mounts into the carry handle of a a2 receiver that you then put a scope on top of? Or are you using a flattop riser combo? What's your set up ?
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Posted: 1/1/2007 1:07:55 PM EDT
[#28]
If you are off target by 2.5 inches at 25 yards you would be off 10 inches at 100 yards(mathmatically). It's because your bullet is angling away from your line of sight/ bullseye not moving parallel to it.
Another thought....What is your rifle's twist rate? What weight bullets are you shooting? Are the bullet holes at 25 and 100 tards round or keyholed? |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 1:24:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Two-and-a-half inches at 25 yards will certianly translate to 14 inches at 100. If the bullet path were straight with the line of sight, which it is not, the difference would be 10 inches. The bullet is on a rising path at 25 and still rising at 100. When you put your old scope back on and got it adjusted at 25 yards, how many rounds did you shoot at 25? It would take ten shots at least to verify that the scope was holding zero at 25 before moving to 100. I suspect that you only shot three rounds (or so) to verify that it was "dead on" at 25 before shooting at 100. Statistically speaking, there is a good chance that a malfunctioning scope could hold zero for three shots, but much less likey for ten. Thirty shots would certainly show if the scope were bad even one which has an occasional wander (assuming that the rifle holds zero with irons). From what it sounds like, your scopes are bad. Either you need to pony-up for better optics ($300 minimum though I would suggest spending ~$600) or use irons. I shoot mostly iron sights and have no trouble holding the 2 minute of angle that my AR-15 is currently capable of (I need better loads or a better barrel). I have on more than one occasion used irons (with a good rifle and bench) held less than 1 minute of angle at 100 meters for 10 shot groups. Also, what are you shooting at with an AR that requires optics? Unless you have a varmiter set-up and are shooting praire dogs at 200+ yards, I'm not sure you need a scope. (Just my opinion). Dave. |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 1:29:00 PM EDT
[#30]
It appears to be a scope (with good rings) problem in my opinion. You friends scope would have been in the center if you had adjusted it. Good luck How much did you pay for your scopes? |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 2:47:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Ya'all Amaze me... He has two Cheap Chinese made scopes and he lost his zero.... That should be the only clue needed to solve the mystery.....
 I know. I know... no one wants to believe it's there scope.. cause that would not validate a persons choice that he/she made very well. Cheap optics are like cheap anything else... you may luck out and get one that works good for you, or you may not... the odds are more and more against you the cheaper the scope.. Just think how happy you would have been if you had used the money spent on the NCStar and Barska and bought something fairly descent...... |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 5:05:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Flat top riser. Ok well thanks guys for the trajectory info, it sounds like at least the rifle is shooting correctly. I will get more ammo and really figure out my scope in his mount. And then I will be able to determine if I need to buy just a new riser, or both a new riser and new (much better) scope. |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 5:58:08 PM EDT
[#33]
$60 for the NcSTAR, and much less for the Barska |
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Posted: 1/1/2007 5:59:17 PM EDT
[#34]
64 Gr. Winchester Power point rounds. Not sure what the twist rate of my barrel is and I did not look at the holes on the target closely
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Posted: 1/2/2007 6:23:11 AM EDT
[#35]
I wouldn't waste any more ammo trying to sight it in
Mike |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 7:12:26 AM EDT
[#36]
ok............what brand of AR are you shooting? |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 8:15:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Uh I change my vote to the scopes if thats all you paid for them. I wasn't familiar with the brands. I know in the 70's I had some cheap weaver and tasco scopes and even they would hold zero on my 30-06.
JR |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 8:47:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
ok............what brand of AR are you shooting? Rock River Entry Tactical |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 8:53:38 AM EDT
[#39]
well it shouldnt be the rifle in that case |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 9:00:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Here's another thought, I Did change out the stock R4 Handguards for some with a smaller diameter, about the same time I first noticed the accuracy problem. But I do think I did get some accuracy for a while after I put those on, AND, it seemed to be shooting fine yesterday with the other scope and mount. But would handguards that were too small cause a problem like this?
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Posted: 1/2/2007 11:09:40 AM EDT
[#41]
This must be a joke! No one spends @$900 for a Rock River Entry Tactical rifle and then $60 for a cheap offbrand scope to go on it. |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 11:29:37 AM EDT
[#42]
I have seen guys with 2,600 dollar rifles and Leapers scopes on them, you never know |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 12:13:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Well looks like I am in the market for a new scope, and new mount. Anyone know of any one piece riser mounts for a flat top rifle that looks cool and works very well? Also, I would like a silver scope, with ruby red lenses, and possibly illuminated reticle. Anyone know of any good quality scopes that fit that profile?
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Posted: 1/2/2007 12:18:45 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 1/2/2007 12:31:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Whats the problem? Do silver scopes not work well? Does the Black paint help stabilize it and make it a better scope...yeaaa? What are you talking about....
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Posted: 1/2/2007 12:49:37 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 1/2/2007 1:34:31 PM EDT
[#47]
just so you know optics coated with ruby red coatings are always cheap optics. The red coating is used to filter out the red tint cheap glass creates...this helps clear them up slightly and give you better depth perception. Basically just save you pennies and get a good to go scope and mount set up.
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Posted: 1/2/2007 2:24:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Ohhh I see. Alright thank you, appreciate it |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 2:32:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Whenever folks are haveing trouble with their scope (seems like this is your problem) I try to steer then onto a leupold. Yes you can spend thousands for one of their super duper wiz bang scopes and people pay that because they are worth that if you need all the wiz bang features.
If you go to Midway or SWFA(they are a site sponser) you can get a leupold Rifleman 2X7 for $175 or a 3X9 for $190. I know everybody wants lots of power but you would be surprised what you can see with a good clear 7 power. You can't see the fleas but you can see a groundhog out to 250 or possibly 300 yards. The truth of the matter is that a 2 power has a lot going for it on an AR for many uses.Midway has some decent one piece mounts for Flatop guns which include rings for $65. They have a couple but the one I use is the B-Square "Military". You can take the mount off and leave the scope on the mount (to use your carry handle or whatever) and if you mount it in the same grove it will return fairly close to zero .This one piece3 mount has some overhang so it gives you beter flexibility in where you can mount the scope vs regular rings clamping on the flatop. You need the mount anyhow . Get the rifleman leupold to hold you over untill you can put the cash together for a big time scope. Forget the lighted reticle, you can buy some cheepo for $99 (bsa?) which might hold together a little longer than the Bariska but a decent scope with a lighted reticle isn't going to be found untill you get up over $600- $900. If it is so dark that you need the reticle lit you have to spend lots to get a scope brite enough to see anything behind the reticule |
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Posted: 1/2/2007 2:34:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Are the screws/nuts staying tight on your rings? j/w
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