Buying tomorrow but can't decide between DPMS and RRA (308).

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Buying tomorrow but can't decide between DPMS and RRA (308).

Posted: 5/13/2008 6:24:50 AM EDT

Local shop has a DPMS AP4 LR308 with free float aluminum hand guard and a RRA LAR-8 mid-length A4 for sale. However, the RRA has a standard glacier hand guard. Which one should I go with? DPMS $1100(+ tax) and RRA $1060 (+ tax). Your opinions today will decide my purchase tomorrow. Thanks!

Posted: 5/13/2008 6:41:10 AM EDT

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Standard deviation of one, square root of the variance (while controlling for degrees of freedom) of the other.

I have two 308 DPMS and really like them. The people with the RRAs (although still relativley new to the field) seem to enjoy theirs.

Flip a coin?

Posted: 5/13/2008 6:46:37 AM EDT

rra

Posted: 5/13/2008 6:49:29 AM EDT

RRA

Posted: 5/13/2008 7:29:21 AM EDT

If you already have a stash of FAL mags, I'd say the RRA makes sense. I'm also partial to the midlength gas system over the carbine gas system. Both are about the same size and I assume would perform similarly, so see how each one shoulders and buy the one you prefer.

Posted: 5/13/2008 11:42:50 AM EDT

I would think FAL mags are a huge advantage. I have like 20 of those, and they can still be found relatively cheap.

Posted: 5/13/2008 12:29:50 PM EDT

Quoted:
I would think FAL mags are a huge advantage. I have like 20 of those, and they can still be found relatively cheap.

Yes and thats why between the two Id go RRA because of FAL mag selection.

Posted: 5/13/2008 3:06:34 PM EDT

I bought a DPMS. I have no mags from any other manufacturer. Hell I don't even use the DPMS mags that came with the gun. They are still brand new. I use a 5 shot magazine at the range. The long/high capicity mags are almost unuseable if shooting off a bench with bags. The little 5 shot mag has plenty of room to remove and install without upsetting or moving the gun on the rests. You only shoot 5 shot groups anyway, right?

Posted: 6/2/2008 4:16:11 PM EDT

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
I would think FAL mags are a huge advantage. I have like 20 of those, and they can still be found relatively cheap.

Yes and thats why between the two Id go RRA because of FAL mag selection.

This is going to be a dumb question but what does FAL stand for and what makes it different from the DPMS system? In fact, when you buy a RRA unit and get a new mag with it, who makes that mag? RRA isn't making any at the moment I think.

Posted: 6/2/2008 4:27:00 PM EDT

Does anyone know the thread size for the RRA barrel nut? If it is different than Armalite or DPMS, it would make it difficult to fit a free-float rail.

Posted: 6/2/2008 4:33:55 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would think FAL mags are a huge advantage. I have like 20 of those, and they can still be found relatively cheap.

Yes and thats why between the two Id go RRA because of FAL mag selection.

This is going to be a dumb question but what does FAL stand for and what makes it different from the DPMS system? In fact, when you buy a RRA unit and get a new mag with it, who makes that mag? RRA isn't making any at the moment I think.

FAL = Fusil Automatique Léger or Light Automatic Rifle in English
It was Dieudonne Saive's 1950s follow-on to the FN-49 and served as the main battle rifle to about 2 dozen countries.

Posted: 6/3/2008 5:45:21 AM EDT

Thanks. I didn't know that. What is the difference between this and what DPMS is using? I still don't understand why the magazines are not interchangeable between the RRA's and the Panthers?

Posted: 6/3/2008 6:13:26 AM EDT

FAL Magazines are rock/lock magazines (like an AK or M14). They are not designed to insert straight up into the magwell; also the FAL is a tilting bolt action, and there is no bolt lugs on the bottom of the bolt, so the dimensions of the FAL magazine feed lips are different than an AR mag. The DPMS mag uses the SR25 pattern, which is designed for the AR bolt. Originally the RRA gun was marketed by Bushmaster, and got a lot of bad press because the bolt lugs were breaking, and the consensus was that they were breaking because of the FAL mags. RRA brought the design back in house to fix it, and is now marketing it themselves.

Posted: 6/3/2008 6:43:36 AM EDT

Quoted:
Local shop has a DPMS AP4 LR308 with free float aluminum hand guard and a RRA LAR-8 mid-length A4 for sale. However, the RRA has a standard glacier hand guard. Which one should I go with? DPMS $1100(+ tax) and RRA $1060 (+ tax). Your opinions today will decide my purchase tomorrow. Thanks!

Freefloat tube gets my vote. Freefloating barrels tend to be more accurate.

I think the DPMS looks cooler than the RRA, too, but thats too subjective to matter.
Almost bought the AP4 myself but went with a DPMS TAC20 cuz I wanted a longer barrel and standard stock.

Posted: 6/3/2008 7:18:33 AM EDT

The primary reason that some people are confused about mags is that they are used to AR-15 style rifles, which DO all use the same mags. These rifles all share a fairly common anscestory and as such, share parts compatibility, mag compatibility, accessory compatibility with each other (for the most part).
When the larger ".308" platforms evolved, each manufacturer, lacking a common base platform, pursued their own designs. Which magazine to use was one of the design decisions that had to be made. Different companies went different ways and ended up with designs that are not made to mirror one another, have parts compatibility between brands, etc....Some ended up using existing .308 mags from other platforms (such as the FAL or G3)mags, some using modifications of existing mags (such as the M14), and some even use(d) proprietary new mags.
Directly to BB's comments, the BAR-10 had its bolt breakage on the bolt's tail, not the lugs. Neither the BAR-10 nor the LAR-8 have ever been lacking lugs on the bolt (bottom or otherwise) as their common basic design allows for a full AR-style bolt face with all lugs in place. The only agreement on the incompatibility of an AR-style bolt and FAL magazines was between a market competitor (who rightly stated that his rifle's design was incompatible with the FAL mag) and himself. With a rifle designed for the use of the FAL mag in mind, it is not, and hasn't been, an issue.
Thanks for allowing me to clarify these points within this thread.
Steve/RRA

Posted: 6/3/2008 9:37:11 AM EDT

the rra also uses higher quality aluminum that is forged into shape rather than being forged into a block and then milled into shape. this results in a slightly stronger receiver in both material and manufacturing method.

you will likely not notice the difference though, as the receiver is not a stress point.

Posted: 6/3/2008 1:26:31 PM EDT

I went with the DPMS as well. It has had a little more time to work out the bugs. That being said I own a RRA Entry Tac and am happy with it. It seemed to me the 308 RRA was built around the FAL mags instead of the other way around.

Posted: 6/3/2008 2:47:04 PM EDT

Quoted:
The primary reason that some people are confused about mags is that they are used to AR-15 style rifles, which DO all use the same mags. These rifles all share a fairly common anscestory and as such, share parts compatibility, mag compatibility, accessory compatibility with each other (for the most part).
When the larger ".308" platforms evolved, each manufacturer, lacking a common base platform, pursued their own designs. Which magazine to use was one of the design decisions that had to be made. Different companies went different ways and ended up with designs that are not made to mirror one another, have parts compatibility between brands, etc....Some ended up using existing .308 mags from other platforms (such as the FAL or G3)mags, some using modifications of existing mags (such as the M14), and some even use(d) proprietary new mags.
Directly to BB's comments, the BAR-10 had its bolt breakage on the bolt's tail, not the lugs. Neither the BAR-10 nor the LAR-8 have ever been lacking lugs on the bolt (bottom or otherwise) as their common basic design allows for a full AR-style bolt face with all lugs in place. The only agreement on the incompatibility of an AR-style bolt and FAL magazines was between a market competitor (who rightly stated that his rifle's design was incompatible with the FAL mag) and himself. With a rifle designed for the use of the FAL mag in mind, it is not, and hasn't been, an issue.
Thanks for allowing me to clarify these points within this thread.
Steve/RRA

Thanks for the clarification; so it was the back of the bolt? Weird. What was causing that, and how did you fix it, if you don't mind my asking?

Posted: 6/3/2008 3:19:13 PM EDT

height=8

Quoted:
The primary reason that some people are confused about mags is that they are used to AR-15 style rifles, which DO all use the same mags. These rifles all share a fairly common anscestory and as such, share parts compatibility, mag compatibility, accessory compatibility with each other (for the most part).
When the larger ".308" platforms evolved, each manufacturer, lacking a common base platform, pursued their own designs. Which magazine to use was one of the design decisions that had to be made. Different companies went different ways and ended up with designs that are not made to mirror one another, have parts compatibility between brands, etc....Some ended up using existing .308 mags from other platforms (such as the FAL or G3)mags, some using modifications of existing mags (such as the M14), and some even use(d) proprietary new mags.
Directly to BB's comments, the BAR-10 had its bolt breakage on the bolt's tail, not the lugs. Neither the BAR-10 nor the LAR-8 have ever been lacking lugs on the bolt (bottom or otherwise) as their common basic design allows for a full AR-style bolt face with all lugs in place. The only agreement on the incompatibility of an AR-style bolt and FAL magazines was between a market competitor (who rightly stated that his rifle's design was incompatible with the FAL mag) and himself. With a rifle designed for the use of the FAL mag in mind, it is not, and hasn't been, an issue.
Thanks for allowing me to clarify these points within this thread.
Steve/RRA

Thanks for the info. So where does RRA get the mags it ships with the LAR-8's?

Posted: 6/3/2008 5:24:15 PM EDT

height=8

Quoted:
the rra also uses higher quality aluminum that is forged into shape rather than being forged into a block and then milled into shape. this results in a slightly stronger receiver in both material and manufacturing method.

you will likely not notice the difference though, as the receiver is not a stress point.

The popular consensus is that forging into shape is the stronger of the two.

I did catch something somewhere that mentioned that a forging could potentially develop an air pocket yielding a weak spot. So CNC from a forged block is better.

I am not making and argument for either method....just throwing out something I heard or read.

Posted: 6/3/2008 8:41:03 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
the rra also uses higher quality aluminum that is forged into shape rather than being forged into a block and then milled into shape. this results in a slightly stronger receiver in both material and manufacturing method.

you will likely not notice the difference though, as the receiver is not a stress point.

The popular consensus is that forging into shape is the stronger of the two.

I did catch something somewhere that mentioned that a forging could potentially develop an air pocket yielding a weak spot. So CNC from a forged block is better.

I am not making and argument for either method....just throwing out something I heard or read.

Forging on a component that is not highly stressed is not done for strength. It is done to reduce manufacturing cost. Forging provides a near net shape that doesn't require a lot of expensive machine time. If you are going to produce thousands of identical units, the cost of forging dies is much, much cheaper than the cumulative cost of the machine time to finish the exterior of a receiver made from billet.

Posted: 6/4/2008 4:53:25 AM EDT

To answer a couple of the questions:
Tails on a couple hundred of the several thousand rifles built had what BM identified as a heat treat issue. We've completely redesigned the bolt and carrier (along with the extractor since we were already in the neighborhood).
As for mags...there are literally millions of FAL mags out there. We've picked up thousands of them. We had one young guy working in the assembly shop who spent several months doing nothing but sorting FAL mags and then diassembling, cleaning, and prepping them for rephos, then reassembling and rechecking them. We had a running joke with him (he wasn't in on the joke angle of it) that the next shipment of twenty thousand mags was going to be hitting our receiving dock any day.
Steve/RRA

Posted: 6/4/2008 6:25:33 AM EDT

Quoted:
We had a running joke with him (he wasn't in on the joke angle of it) that the next shipment of twenty thousand mags was going to be hitting our receiving dock any day.
Steve/RRA

Did you tell him that the new shipment was going to have dickfors that he was going to have to contend with as well????

:)

Posted: 6/4/2008 12:38:11 PM EDT

No...he was near to both tears and homicide at the same time. We didn't make it worse. And I know what it is, too!

Steve/RRA

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Buying tomorrow but can't decide between DPMS and RRA (308).

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