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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:33:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Because if you buy a complete rifle you pay an 11% excise tax.
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:36:58 PM EDT
[#2]
buy a complete rifle.. it makes NO SENSE to buy lowers....
you can buy a bazillion lowers and then find out IF a law passes it ma ban the most common features you want on a AR.. collapsable stocks, high cap mags, etc... you'll have lowers to build a nuetered AR... doesn't make sense..... |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:38:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
buy a complete rifle.. it makes NO SENSE to buy lowers.... you can buy a bazillion lowers and then find out IF a law passes it ma ban the most common features you want on a AR.. collapsable stocks, high cap mags, etc... you'll have lowers to build a nuetered AR... doesn't make sense..... He's not talking about that. He asked why people are building lowers into rifles instead of buying them complete. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:39:39 PM EDT
[#4]
The next assault rifle ban will probably not have any loopholes for "post-ban" rifles.
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:39:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Buy 10 lowers and install a LPK in each. If you have just one other complete rifle, at this point, technically, you can build all 10 lowers into a complete rifles...
The thing is that no one knows what the future ban may include or if there will be another ban. Everyone is guessing at this point. I'm more worried about ammo if anythign. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:55:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Why are people buying Lowers? I can think of a few reasons but they don't really make sense.
1) They want to buy a lot at a cheap price then sell them if and when a AWB is passed. This makes no sense for several reasons. No one knows what the a potential AWB will contain. It may restrict the transfer of many things. This means your stuck with all those Lowers with no legal buyers. The same could apply for high cap mags and most anything else. 2) They want recievers so they can build their AW post-ban. Makes no sense for reasons I posted earlier. You might be able to build one but a AWB may restrict features of the AW that we as a community have come to take for granted. 3) They want a spare reciever for their curernt AR. I can kinda see the logic but again who knows a AWB may legally prevent you from using the lower on a AW that may have AW features that are now banned. So what is the best course of action? Take care of yourself. Buy complete rifles or build complete rifles with all the features you want. The key is buy what you personally need (or your frends and family needs) as you might not be able to legally transfer the components or complete rifles after a ban takes place. It is highly unlikely that a AWB will not have a grandfather clause on complete rifles or components. It is unlikely the gov. will require citizens to turn in their weapons or even take off newly banned features from pre-ban complete rifles. Keep your documentation on every rifle and component you purchase. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 12:59:28 PM EDT
[#7]
<Spam Removed. -NorCal>
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Posted: 11/17/2008 1:00:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
New Hunting and Shooting Forum!!! Get out. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 3:38:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Why is everybody buying lowers vs. complete rifles? I know there is no way of knowing what a future AWB might look like if it does happen but in '94 all lowers had to be completed in order to be grandfathered in. So are the people who are buying 10 or more lowers finishing them all? If so why not just buy a complete rifle? I can build what I want off of a stripped lower vs. being pretty much stuck with what you get in a complete rifle. I don't buy lowers to hoard them though. When I buy a lower it's because I'm building into something once I get it. Some folks buy to store & some buy for the same reasons I've described. ...And it doesn't hurt to have a spare lower in case you end up destroying one that's already built. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 4:38:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Now hang on a second....
The last AWB the "finished rifle" clause really only affected dealers and manufacturers as I observed it at the time. If an individual had a stripped lower transfered into his possession before the AWB took effect it was zero problem to build up a pre-ban gun. If anyone checked, the serial numbers checked out in the correct date-range for a pre-ban gun. I never heard anyone ever getting hassled about it, but if they had built up a pre-ban lower way after the ban actually took effect when they were asked "When did you build this into a complete rifle?" The answer could and would be "Oh goodness, the day after I purchased it of course..." Since there is no legal documentation necessary, and the BATF is only tracking the lower, the gov is SOL (and not going to waste the time) trying to prove that you actually installed the parts kit way after the ban took effect. Where exactly are they going to obtain the proof that you DIDN'T install the parts kit before the ban? It makes plenty of sense at this exact second to grab stripped lowers. As the ban is going to go into effect you can choose then whether you want to finish the gun up or not prior to the ban. For instance I could (according to the letter of the law guys above) pull all the parts off a couple of my rifles I bought complete years ago, and install them into my stripped lowers. Voila. I have now created an all new stripped lower that was purchased as a pre-ban gun, and put those parts into a stripped lower purchased as a stripped lower last week. All silly gyrations, but if you think the BATF has a camera in my light fixture recording my every move it would satisfy the letter of the law. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 5:06:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Now hang on a second.... The last AWB the "finished rifle" clause really only affected dealers and manufacturers as I observed it at the time. If an individual had a stripped lower transfered into his possession before the AWB took effect it was zero problem to build up a pre-ban gun. If anyone checked, the serial numbers checked out in the correct date-range for a pre-ban gun. I never heard anyone ever getting hassled about it, but if they had built up a pre-ban lower way after the ban actually took effect when they were asked "When did you build this into a complete rifle?" The answer could and would be "Oh goodness, the day after I purchased it of course..." Since there is no legal documentation necessary, and the BATF is only tracking the lower, the gov is SOL (and not going to waste the time) trying to prove that you actually installed the parts kit way after the ban took effect. Where exactly are they going to obtain the proof that you DIDN'T install the parts kit before the ban? It makes plenty of sense at this exact second to grab stripped lowers. As the ban is going to go into effect you can choose then whether you want to finish the gun up or not prior to the ban. For instance I could (according to the letter of the law guys above) pull all the parts off a couple of my rifles I bought complete years ago, and install them into my stripped lowers. Voila. I have now created an all new stripped lower that was purchased as a pre-ban gun, and put those parts into a stripped lower purchased as a stripped lower last week. All silly gyrations, but if you think the BATF has a camera in my light fixture recording my every move it would satisfy the letter of the law. +1 I bought two sundevil receivers from Rainerarms. One is being built with a Stag kit from Pete and the other is in the safe. By the time I'm done with the Stag build I'll have a complete M4 rifle on a billet receiver for under $750 bones. Not bad given the current economic situation with firearms. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 5:29:38 PM EDT
[#12]
and how will "they" know how far your rifle was built or not built after the ban unless you tell them.
and what makes you think anyone, ANYONE will ever get around to checking "your" rifle. there are 80+ million gun owners by now in America. and double that, no, triple that in the amount of guns in the hands of gun owners. yeah, "they" are going straight to your door the minute the boogie ban happens and check all your shit out. you could have 10 lowers and build them into whatever you want after whatever Obammy has planned and no one will ever know. stop thinking your on some sort of radar screen, list, microscope, whatever. if you have it, it's yours. now selling after might get a bit dicey if you cross some new laws, but for now, do what ever you want, stop being so paranoid. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 5:34:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
buy a complete rifle.. it makes NO SENSE to buy lowers.... you can buy a bazillion lowers and then find out IF a law passes it ma ban the most common features you want on a AR.. collapsable stocks, high cap mags, etc... you'll have lowers to build a nuetered AR... doesn't make sense..... This is what I was kind of thinking as well. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 5:35:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Because if you buy a complete rifle you pay an 11% excise tax. Really. I didn't know that. |
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Posted: 11/17/2008 5:36:13 PM EDT
[#15]
By building up a stripped receiver I will have a complete M4A2 for about $200 less than buying the rifle complete. I just wish I would have ordered it three weeks ago.....
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:20:29 AM EDT
[#16]
buying ONE lower=~$100
buying a complete rifle=~$1000 simple concept of how much funds you have NOW and how many you can get NOW the next AWB, if it comes, will probably ban EVERYTHING...the toughest part to get would be the part considered the firearm, therefore, stock up on the firearm part (the lower) |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:58:24 AM EDT
[#17]
Essentially my thought as well. I have 4 kids... 4 rifles...4 thousand...
:) |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:04:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Why is everybody buying lowers vs. complete rifles? I know there is no way of knowing what a future AWB might look like if it does happen but in '94 all lowers had to be completed in order to be grandfathered in. So are the people who are buying 10 or more lowers finishing them all? If so why not just buy a complete rifle? I could really care less about the fine points of what is grandfathered or not; I'm more concerned with having access to functional weapons. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:06:06 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Because if you buy a complete rifle you pay an 11% excise tax. Do you pay the excise tax on the stripped lower? I presumed you did, since according to the law, for an AR anyway, the stripped lower is the "firearm". Regardless, even if you do, the excise tax on a stripped lower is certainly less than that on a complete rifle. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:10:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Because if you buy a complete rifle you pay an 11% excise tax. Do you pay the excise tax on the stripped lower? I presumed you did, since according to the law, for an AR anyway, the stripped lower is the "firearm". Regardless, even if you do, the excise tax on a stripped lower is certainly less than that on a complete rifle. ftwm explained that you pay FET on a complete rifle. No, you do not pay FET on the stripped (or complete lower) when you receive it without a complete upper attached. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:13:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Now hang on a second.... The last AWB the "finished rifle" clause really only affected dealers and manufacturers as I observed it at the time. If an individual had a stripped lower transfered into his possession before the AWB took effect it was zero problem to build up a pre-ban gun. If anyone checked, the serial numbers checked out in the correct date-range for a pre-ban gun. I never heard anyone ever getting hassled about it, but if they had built up a pre-ban lower way after the ban actually took effect when they were asked "When did you build this into a complete rifle?" The answer could and would be "Oh goodness, the day after I purchased it of course..." Since there is no legal documentation necessary, and the BATF is only tracking the lower, the gov is SOL . . . I agree with this. Another angle on this is the likelihood of enforcement. Yeah, I know you can hear anything in a gun shop, but I heard something interesting recently. A gun dealer (former highway patrolman and National Guard pilot) said that a BATF guy told him that they make no attempt to enforce the rules about foreign vs. USA parts on AK type rifles in the possession of private individuals. Why? Because, he said, they were getting 80 percent compliance without enforcing it. I could see the same situation with another AR law. They're going to watch the manufacturers and the dealers, but they're not going to check out every Tom, Dick and Harry's rifle to make sure the threaded barrel was purchased before the law's enactment. The only wrinkle I see is that post-ban, the prices of the good stuff will go through the roof. Seems like if you buy the evil parts now (the threaded barrel, magazines, collapsible stocks) you could pick up the benign parts like upper receivers, sights and handguards later. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:28:40 AM EDT
[#22]
I have a stripped lower and an lpk on the way. I just put together a whole rifle and thought starting to stack up some parts for another might be a good idea while while the prices are still low. I am getting the Doublestar lower for $100 and the DPMS lpk for $42. I may not get such a good deal on the rest.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:34:48 AM EDT
[#23]
About a month before the election I bought a lower just how I wanted it for $230. Then later I bought an upper just the way I wanted it for $430. After shipping & FFL transfer I had exactly what I wanted for under $700. I could probably sell that rifle today online for at least twice what I bought it for. I should have built two of them!
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:38:34 PM EDT
[#24]
It's cheaper that way. Plus, I can build exactly what I need. I still by the uppers and lowers from the same manufacturer (LMT in my case), it's just less expensive to piece them together.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:49:50 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm lazy...I buy lower and upper halves, pop the pins together and save on the FET.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:52:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
buying ONE lower=~$100 buying a complete rifle=~$1000 simple concept of how much funds you have NOW and how many you can get NOW the next AWB, if it comes, will probably ban EVERYTHING...the toughest part to get would be the part considered the firearm, therefore, stock up on the firearm part (the lower) This. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:45:00 PM EDT
[#27]
I guess I am the first to say it...IT IS FUN!!!!
I enjoy putting the rifles together! 
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:25:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Becase it is easier to get it by the wife, first you buy five Lowers then five LPKs then five stock kits and finally five uppers and you have five new ARs:-) and all five are just the way you want them.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:36:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Becase it is easier to get it by the wife, first you buy five uppers then five LPKs then five stock kits and finally five uppers and you have five new ARs:-) and all five are just the way you want them. You are a very bad man 
How can you sleep at night
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:36:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Becase it is easier to get it by the wife, first you buy five uppers then five LPKs then five stock kits and finally five uppers and you have five new ARs:-) and all five are just the way you want them. +1 ain't that the truth. Smaller boxes are definitely easier to get swallowed up by my gun area. It's like a black hole.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 1:33:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Every time I price the parts need to build an AR it comes out to about to only $100 less than buying a complete one. With a complete rifle you often times get a longer warranty usually lifetime, you have a completed rifle on record before the ban, and various other little extras that come with a complete rifle like a storage case. Plus you have a complete rifle on delivery and don't have to asemble it.
The parts needed to make the rifle have a mark up and it cuts into your savings. It's kind of like how it's not really cost effective to assemble your own computer or car from parts. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 3:24:19 AM EDT
[#32]
If you want to goet technical you can buy 10 lowers and 1 upper. Place the upper on one lower, then another, then another, and so on... in minutes you have 10 legally completed rifles.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 5:06:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Becase it is easier to get it by the wife, first you buy five uppers then five LPKs then five stock kits and finally five uppers and you have five new ARs:-) and all five are just the way you want them. G=30 your theory was correct, but the math is off. By you statement, you now have five rifles with two uppers each and no lowers. 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:09:01 AM EDT
[#34]
I don't know about you all, but my FFL recorded both of my lowers as "rifles". There was no mention as to them being stripped. I don't know what everyone is worried about.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:18:40 AM EDT
[#35]
Can you prove that a stripped lowere was never built. When a dealer enters a stripped lowere in his book he/she does not enter it as a stripped lower ( Well some might and that is just not needed) they will enter what is on the mag well. Again some basic law. The burden of proof is on the state or the US Gov to show that the lower was not built by you they day you took possesion of it and there is some AWB charge they are trying to prove. Guys this is not somthing to worry about. What you need not be worried about is making sure you have purchased what you think you will need/want for the next 4 years. Buy your stuff lock it up or go play with it.
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:29:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Wait time can also be an issue. I bought a RRA 7" pistol and had a 12 week wait. I'm currently working on a pair of 11.5" builds. The CMMG lowers and Bushy uppers were ready in less than a week! Add to that the fact that some manufactures don't sell certain configurations so you HAVE to build it.
Oh and.... Post # 556!!! |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:57:19 AM EDT
[#37]
Bingo. I believe that when I bought my stripped lowers they listed them as rifles.
It's simple math. You can buy one 1000 dollar AR rifle or 5-10 lowers depending on the price. I highly doubt they will ban the uppers. They will grandfather the older rifles, and there will still have to be parts available to repair your old rifle. Or accessories. Who will truly know whether you are buying an upper to put on your already existing AR or are building a new one. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 6:58:17 AM EDT
[#38]
Another huge thing going for us is that the uppers, and all the little parts have NO SERIAL NUMBERS. How are they gonna track all that?
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Posted: 11/20/2008 7:43:21 AM EDT
[#39]
Every time I price the parts need to build an AR it comes out to about to only $100 less than buying a complete one. With a complete rifle you often times get a longer warranty usually lifetime, you have a completed rifle on record before the ban, and various other little extras that come with a complete rifle like a storage case. Plus you have a complete rifle on delivery and don't have to asemble it.
The parts needed to make the rifle have a mark up and it cuts into your savings. It's kind of like how it's not really cost effective to assemble your own computer or car from parts.  I'm sorry but that is wrong on both accounts.
When building a computer, it is almost always cheaper depending on where you buy your parts and if you shop around. You can save hundreds of dollars easy getting the performance you want and skimping out on parts that are not needed. The hardware will be higher quality in the long run instead of paying for cheap OEM shit. www.newegg.com www.tigerdirect.com Same goes with an AR15. In a way, you are wasting money by buying a high quality complete rifle. There are parts of the rifle where you are essentially paying for precieved quality that is not needed. There are used parts that are marked down considerably on these types of forums that are practically brand new. You can shop around for special deals or closeout prices as well. Last of all, you can choose any part as you see fit, instead of getting iffy OEM stuff too. Building a car is not a good analogy. It requires alot of tools and skills which make it uneconomical to build your own car. However, if you have those it will always be cheaper than paying some doof depending on how valuable your time is. On the other hand, ar15's (and computers) snap together like legos. I guess the warranty arguement is valid; yet, almost all parts I've owned had a warranty of 1 year-lifetime and even then, in some cases it is cheaper to buy and replace the part yourself than have to pay for shipping the product back. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 7:49:45 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Can you prove that a stripped lowere was never built. When a dealer enters a stripped lowere in his book he/she does not enter it as a stripped lower ( Well some might and that is just not needed) they will enter what is on the mag well. Again some basic law. The burden of proof is on the state or the US Gov to show that the lower was not built by you they day you took possesion of it and there is some AWB charge they are trying to prove. Guys this is not somthing to worry about. What you need not be worried about is making sure you have purchased what you think you will need/want for the next 4 years. Buy your stuff lock it up or go play with it. That USE to be correct. The new ATF form and it states, "handgun, rifle, shotgun, RECEIVER". It is now being recorded as a receiver not a rifle. |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 8:44:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Becase it is easier to get it by the wife, first you buy five Lowers then five LPKs then five stock kits and finally five uppers and you have five new ARs:-) and all five are just the way you want them. G=30 your theory was correct, but the math is off. By you statement, you now have five rifles with two uppers each and no lowers. ETA: Sorry ment five lowers as well 
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Posted: 11/20/2008 8:55:42 AM EDT
[#42]
It looks like I will be doing 4 types of builds:
1st. Bought a STAG 2H complete from Whittaker Guns for $786 + shipping. This made my complete rifle about $100 higher than buying the stripped lower and the 2H build kit from Legal Transfer. With that I got a complete rifle, case and lifetime warranty. Came ready to shoot. 2nd. Bought a RRA complete lower with NM trigger for $278 from Whittakers. Bought a BCM Middy upper and BCM auto BCG from G&R Tactical. Pinned them together, added an Aimpoint from the SWFA deal in EE and started shooting. 3rd. Bought a stripped lower for a member on EE. Bought LPK and stock from Legal Transfer. Waiting on RRA Varmint upper. I will build the lower and pin the upper into place when it arrives. 4th. I have a 4th stripped lower that I will build using a LPK. I will probably build the upper from scratch. I think I've got the process pretty much covered with these 4 builds (3 builds and 1 complete gun actually). WDEagle |
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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:02:00 AM EDT
[#43]
I have bought three stipped lowers in the last year and built 3 totaly different AR'S just for fun. A new ban could make us all felons if we follow England and Australia's route. I hope we here in the USA stand up to what ever comes our way!
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Posted: 11/20/2008 10:11:11 AM EDT
[#44]
It makes no sense to buy a complete rifle or complete lower.
It's cheaper to buy a good lower and good LPK. A monkey could assemble it. It's a non-stressed, no precision part of the AR. You'd have to TRY to screw it up. Uppers are another story. |
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Posted: 11/21/2008 8:03:34 AM EDT
[#45]
if it's logged as a receiver do you have to go back and tell them you built it? how is the government going to know you didn't have the upper and LPK at home before you got the stripped lower?
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Posted: 11/21/2008 8:44:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
if it's logged as a receiver do you have to go back and tell them you built it? how is the government going to know you didn't have the upper and LPK at home before you got the stripped lower? STOP STRESSING! The government isn't going to know unless you tell them. Everybody is just planning for the worst, but no one knows if or when we could see the next ban. It may never come who knows. Just put a stock on it and a LPK, use an existing upper or if you don't have one, use your friends, fire a couple rounds, now its been a completely assembled rifle! |
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Posted: 11/21/2008 8:49:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Now hang on a second.... The last AWB the "finished rifle" clause really only affected dealers and manufacturers as I observed it at the time. If an individual had a stripped lower transfered into his possession before the AWB took effect it was zero problem to build up a pre-ban gun. If anyone checked, the serial numbers checked out in the correct date-range for a pre-ban gun. I never heard anyone ever getting hassled about it, but if they had built up a pre-ban lower way after the ban actually took effect when they were asked "When did you build this into a complete rifle?" The answer could and would be "Oh goodness, the day after I purchased it of course..." Since there is no legal documentation necessary, and the BATF is only tracking the lower, the gov is SOL (and not going to waste the time) trying to prove that you actually installed the parts kit way after the ban took effect. Where exactly are they going to obtain the proof that you DIDN'T install the parts kit before the ban? It makes plenty of sense at this exact second to grab stripped lowers. As the ban is going to go into effect you can choose then whether you want to finish the gun up or not prior to the ban. For instance I could (according to the letter of the law guys above) pull all the parts off a couple of my rifles I bought complete years ago, and install them into my stripped lowers. Voila. I have now created an all new stripped lower that was purchased as a pre-ban gun, and put those parts into a stripped lower purchased as a stripped lower last week. All silly gyrations, but if you think the BATF has a camera in my light fixture recording my every move it would satisfy the letter of the law. I believe Snackycake is 100% correct. |
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Posted: 11/21/2008 10:35:01 AM EDT
[#48]
IMO, The time to buy and build AR’s from stripped lowers is over (at least for the time being). Complete AR’s are the only way to go right now. Why?…
1. Look at the prices of AR’s on the EE right now. With a few exceptions (Colt), most complete AR’s are not much more expensive now then they were 2 months ago. Stripped lowers on the other hand have gone up as much as 200-250% compared to what those same lowers sold for 2 months ago. From a financial view point, complete rifles are the better deal right now. 2. Assuming you found a stripped lower for a fair price, good luck trying to find a quality LPK or upper receiver group. I do think those items will become more available again after this current rush ends and before any new ban gets voted into law but who knows what the prices will be? 3. The new 4473 specifies a difference between a rifle and a stripped lower. This is not a coincidence IMO. I would be willing to bet $ that any new ban will take that into account and simply proving that your lower was made and bought before the ban won’t be good enough this time around. I admit I have nothing to back that one up with and don’t even know how they could legally word it but I personally will not be buying any new stripped lowers using the new 4473. 4. Even forgetting #3, The other assumption I’m working from is that any new AWB will be fashioned after Kali’s. What that means is you will have to register your AR for it to remain legal. If that becomes the case, I don’t know if they will let you register a stripped lower (if buying now and building later is your plan)? |
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