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Posted: 9/6/2005 2:36:43 PM EDT
Last minute call for help, I order my rifle tomorrow and am wondering about to weaknesses I've heard about Bushmasters....

First, the FCG... I've never pulled a trigger on one, or for that matter the RRA 2 stage trigger either. I've been told the trigger pulls are horrible, heavy, and gritty... but I'm used to AKs, how bad could it be? Next is that the FCGs are inferior to RRAs... there again, I've searched for info on this website but don't see it.

Second, the bolt... I've read that Bushmasters bolts are weak. I don't know how or if they do go bad but anyone here care to help me out?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 2:49:04 PM EDT
My personal opinion: I'd choose a Bushmaster over everything but a Colt.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:00:29 PM EDT

I don't know of any "weaknesses" in stock Bushmasters that are a particular problem.

Because they are one of the really large manufacturers, you are going to hear more about "problems" with Bushmasters than with other manufacturers that produce far fewer units each year. Even if Bushmaster had problems with 1% of their rifles, and RRA had problems with 3% of their rifles, you'd still hear about more Bushmasters with problems, simply because they manufacture more. (For example, in 2002, Bushmaster made 45,000 ARs, and RRA made about 2500, and no other manufacturer even makes HALF as many as Bushmaster do).

So definitely take reports of "problems" with Bushmasters with a grain of salt.

In terms of their quality - there is no real difference in function and appearance between Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite, RRA (and others). On the margin, Armalite might sometimes have slightly nicer finish, and Colt might be a little more anal about some testing that will likely never make a difference in real life. I've owned Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA, CMMG and shot a bunch of Colt ARs, and I can't tell the difference. I've certainly not heard anything about Bushmaster's bolts being "weak" - any part will eventually wear down in used a lot - and I don't know of any difference between Bushmaster and other quality manufacturers. However, if you are incredibly anal, and plan to shoot tens of thousands of rounds, and really abuse your rifle, then you might want to think about the fact that Colt apparently does slightly more quality control testing on their bolts than anyone else. However, without knowing the reject rate, that doesn't really tell me that Colt's bolts are better, just that they test them more (and brag about it ).

Personally, I don't believe there are any quality differences in terms of the basic functioning and reliability between Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite/Eagle, RRA, CMMG, etc.

That said, I have heard that the Bushmaster competition trigger is not really that great - and you'd probably be better off with a RRA 2-stage trigger.


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:11:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 3:15:16 PM EDT by ManiacRat461]
The only quality control type problem I had out of mine was a problem with the FCG, it was firing what started as a 2 rnd and eventually got to 4 rnds. Bushmaster fixed it no questions asked, leaning towards shotty machining on the hammer as the problem. Now with well over 2k rounds and to be honest only two good cleanings it has presented no problems. One FTE which was due to it having several hundred (over 800 my guesstimation) through it without any cleaning at all and using trash Olympic ammo. The trigger is pretty smooth to me, considering it is a combat/service rifle, it is not gonna have match style trigger unless you replace it with one. No bolt problems so far.

There was one time, I accidentally set it down on the bolt side with the dust cover open, got sand in it and did not know, the rifle itself still functioned fine. The rounds were sticking in the magazine due to sand getting in it. Out of curiosity I shot it a few more times. When it would hang up I pulled the charging handle back again let it slam home tapped the forward assist and let er rip again. It was jammin sure(only every 5th or 6th round though), but it was still useable and firing even with the dreaded sand. So my opinon is Bushy's are extremely dependable, I frequently dump 5 or 6 mags non stop and it keeps eating every magazine, every time. I get it so hot, its smoking and I cannot hang onto it and it still is firing. Bushmaster makes excellent weapons, and I would completely trust my life and others with my A2/20".

But Colt, Armalite and RRA and others also make quality weapons.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:11:49 PM EDT
I've heard Bushies 2 stage trigger complained about allthough the one I had was great. Their stock FCG is as good as you can get. Their bolt is also as good as it gets. That is unless of course you believe that because a rifle has a pony on the side all the parts must be better Seriously though Colts bolts are all MP tested while Bushy only tests random bolts. Truth is you dont see many bolts breaking. Colt or Bushy.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:13:57 PM EDT
BM make fine weapons and parts. The triggers are stiff, because it's a battle rifle. Meant to be tough.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:50:17 PM EDT
Thanks guys, I really like the Bushy M4A3 but feel like I'd miss out if I didn't buy an RRA. Still having a hard time choosing. I know the only solution is to buy both, but I can only afford one.

I appreciate the help, on all of my threads
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:54:57 PM EDT
Colt
Noveske/CMT
LMT


Bushmaster


A­nd in that order.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:56:19 PM EDT
Ive never had a problem with anything Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:59:20 PM EDT
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo


This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:14:03 PM EDT
the only real weakness I have found...and you cant deny it...they go thru ammo like no tomorrow.but that could be me?who knows.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:47:44 PM EDT
Lousy, gritty, creepy first stage factory triggers.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:52:42 PM EDT
If it matters, Bushmaster uses plastic trigger guards.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:53:26 PM EDT
Weaknesses? Well, I'm picking up Bushy #2 tomorrow. Who knows if I'll succumb to my weaknesses and get #3, but that's my weakness, not Bushy's.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:41:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KingC:
If it matters, Bushmaster uses plastic trigger guards.



Well hell!! Thats it!! Im not EVER buying one!!!




Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:46:46 PM EDT
Make sure you're comparing apples to apples (2 stage to 2 stage, etc). I have two Bushies: The DCM that came with a crappy two-stage trigger which I replaced with a Jewell. I've seen many a bad Bushy 2-stage.
My M4A3 Bushie has a fabulous factory single stage trigger. No creep, and very crisp.
Bushy or Colt, IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:53:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KingC:
If it matters, Bushmaster uses plastic trigger guards.



thats why I got the magpul one.aluminuminum
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:55:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:04:00 PM EDT
BUSHMASTER all the way

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:17:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=33935

This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!



10k? Is this without cleaning?

This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer and a car salesman try to drive a car as far as they can on an empty tank.

Anyways, my Bushmaster rifle was used, but solid. No failures, no problems. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's the best out there, but so far, it has been absolutely wonderful.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:18:17 PM EDT
My company buys nothing but Bushmaster for the "staff" and they get dragged everywhere and eat 30K rounds a year in carbine classes, company training and casual blasting. We have an armorer, he changes the bolts and barrels when he needs to.

How many ruptered barrels have I seen? 0
How many broken bolts? 0
Problematic weapons? 1 or 2 in three years and they were serviced by bushmaster and returned in tip top shape

I opted for an approved personal weapon and got an RRA but I will say without a doubt that Bushy will handle anything you throw at it. My co-workers lives and the clients that hire us are protected by Bushmaster products...along with Glocks and FN PDW's here


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:23:32 PM EDT
It is a mass produced weapon. If you accept that...it has no weaknesses.

Tack
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:28:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JeffCsr:
Second, the bolt... I've read that Bushmasters bolts are weak. I don't know how or if they do go bad but anyone here care to help me out?



That's a new one on me... but then again, I can't read .

Seriously, I have Colts, RRA's, Bushmasters, and MEGA's built with both RRA and Bushmaster LPK's. I have Bushmaster supplied BCG's and RRA BCG's, never a problem with either one.

Buy with confidence !!
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo


This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!



WOW !!!! Hey, Mr. Clean, what do you use to keep that puppy so clean ?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:41:22 PM EDT
I have 3 Bushy's. If you are going for a long range tactical rifle, then possibly plan to swap out the trigger ( I use 2 stage Jewells). If you are building a carbine.....stick with stock, they work great and as stated, are battle rifles. Customer service has been great for me and so have the products.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:49:25 PM EDT
Being in CT mine are all "post ban" configured....

Colt: I've owned three. Had the MOST problems with Colt.

All three were standard 20" models "Match Target"

None could group better than 2" @ 100 yds even from a rest.

One broke within 400 rounds. "J" pin causing the hammer pin to walk during SINGLE shot drills
at Chuck Taylor's three day practical rifle seminar. Had to pull the Bushy shorty from the car trunk to finish the course....My instructor at the seminar told me Colt has worn out tooling and actually makes better 16" models than 20" - I believe it. I sold all three Colts and never looked
back.

One was throwing literally "shotgun" patterns on the target with all ammo (the same ammo shot through other ARs yielded 1" groups or LESS)

Bushmaster: Currently have three. Two work with everything. One possibly has a gas problem because it malfunctions with Wolf but works with XM-193.

One of the three Bushies is a "DCM" match gun. It's incredible. It shoots ONE HALF MOA
with stock sights and South African battle pack surplus. (this is with the naked muzzled, 1:8" twist non-chrome lined bbl)

The only thing I don't like about Bushmaster as others have commented, is their "competition" trigger. Get the RRA unit. It's $25 cheaper in retail and a better quality set up with crisp, "grit free" pulls.

I have seen one Bushy varmint special with a disconnector problem new from the factory resulting in doubling.

The only good thing about Colt is they work with Thermold mags better than Bushmaster.

Just my experience...... (and $$ money spent) Avoid Colt. Get Bushmaster
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:57:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 7:58:14 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By JeffCsr:
Last minute call for help, I order my rifle tomorrow and am wondering about to weaknesses I've heard about Bushmasters....



I know of a weakness with Bushmaster...

I buy 'WAY' to many of their lowers, LPK's and barrels...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 9:13:14 PM EDT
All that being said, I'd never give up my Stag. Not even if you traded your Bushy to me for it. ....and I thought I was the only one having problems with going through too many rounds.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:37:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:38:12 PM EDT by MisterPX]

Originally Posted By MEGR:

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=33935
This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!


10k? Is this without cleaning?
This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer and a car salesman try to drive a car as far as they can on an empty tank.
Anyways, my Bushmaster rifle was used, but solid. No failures, no problems. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's the best out there, but so far, it has been absolutely wonderful.



Seen these posts, and had to reply. This is 7K+ of WOlf with no cleaings. Finally broke 2 lugs next to ejector after 9K= no clean, and 12K+ rounds total. Not a Bushy BG, but aren't they all made from the same supplier anyways.

Can you tell I don't like shiny stuff
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:44:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:

Originally Posted By MEGR:

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=33935
This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!


10k? Is this without cleaning?
This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer and a car salesman try to drive a car as far as they can on an empty tank.
Anyways, my Bushmaster rifle was used, but solid. No failures, no problems. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's the best out there, but so far, it has been absolutely wonderful.



Seen these posts, and had to reply. This is 7K+ of WOlf with no cleaings. Finally broke 2 lugs next to ejector after 9K= no clean, and 12K+ rounds total. Not a Bushy BG, but aren't they all made from the same supplier anyways.
www.hunt101.com/img/311678.jpg
Can you tell I don't like shiny stuff



Jesus...now I have a better perspective on what dirty truly means. Dude, what does you car look like?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:58:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:

Originally Posted By MEGR:

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=33935
This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!


10k? Is this without cleaning?
This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer and a car salesman try to drive a car as far as they can on an empty tank.
Anyways, my Bushmaster rifle was used, but solid. No failures, no problems. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's the best out there, but so far, it has been absolutely wonderful.




Seen these posts, and had to reply. This is 7K+ of WOlf with no cleaings. Finally broke 2 lugs next to ejector after 9K= no clean, and 12K+ rounds total. Not a Bushy BG, but aren't they all made from the same supplier anyways.
www.hunt101.com/img/311678.jpg
Can you tell I don't like shiny stuff



Good Gracious, that bolt is hideous. Clean that bad boy!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:16:09 AM EDT
OMG -- I bet you have a bad case of dingle berries and dread locks don't you? That's child abuse.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:21:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 1:37:34 AM EDT by twonami]

Originally Posted By KingC:
If it matters, Bushmaster uses plastic trigger guards.


and a allen bolt instead of a slotted machine screw in the pistol grip.
damn non mil-spec
ETA: the occasional purple gun
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:31:45 AM EDT
That convinces me, I will shoot more Wolf ammo.


Also the weakness is Bushmaster products is that they are overly mass produced. In a good way that means they are well known and on the bad side is, mass-produced products seem to lose quality.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:34:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:

Originally Posted By MEGR:

Originally Posted By CB1:
Weak Bolts?
here is my bolt after 10k worth of Wolf Ammo
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=33935
This bolt now has close to 10.7k worth of Wolf Ammo through it.
Buy the Bushy and enjoy it!!
Buy what you really want, lots of good info here but a lot of it is biased. so choose wisely!


10k? Is this without cleaning?
This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer and a car salesman try to drive a car as far as they can on an empty tank.
Anyways, my Bushmaster rifle was used, but solid. No failures, no problems. I'm not going to go as far as to say it's the best out there, but so far, it has been absolutely wonderful.



Seen these posts, and had to reply. This is 7K+ of WOlf with no cleaings. Finally broke 2 lugs next to ejector after 9K= no clean, and 12K+ rounds total. Not a Bushy BG, but aren't they all made from the same supplier anyways.
www.hunt101.com/img/311678.jpg
Can you tell I don't like shiny stuff


I couldn't get to sleep knowing my gun looked like that, friggen OCD
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:34:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
That convinces me, I will shoot more Wolf ammo.


Also the weakness is Bushmaster products is that they are overly mass produced. In a good way that means they are well known and on the bad side is, mass-produced products seem to lose quality.



Uh... reference please to BM and what the quality is that has been lost?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 3:59:56 AM EDT
That is one dirty bolt. I hope to achieve that type of filth very soon he
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:40:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 5:47:14 AM EDT by donovan007007]

Originally Posted By 4get_No1:

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
That convinces me, I will shoot more Wolf ammo.


Also the weakness is Bushmaster products is that they are overly mass produced. In a good way that means they are well known and on the bad side is, mass-produced products seem to lose quality.



Uh... reference please to BM and what the quality is that has been lost?




I help my local PD and other LEO from around the surrounding areas, I currently have 2 bushies dropped off lastnight. one is not cycling at all and the other ones extractor is broken off entirely with a hot round casing still inside it. Most rifles I work on are over the counter bushies, the local gunsmith in Plano, Tx is currently returning or looking at peoples firearms in 6-8 weeks so nobody likes going to him. I guess I get the spill-over, having said that I will not ever buy bushie because of all the failures that walk in my door. generally I usually have to replace a spring or pin or clean it or over-haul it completely, I place DPMS parts in them and they never come back. they kid around and talk about their bushies saying this/that but I just stand there with my hands in my pockets rubbing on the money they just gave me for fixing their rifles.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:16:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
Also the weakness is Bushmaster products is that they are overly mass produced. In a good way that means they are well known and on the bad side is, mass-produced products seem to lose quality.




So, Bushmaster is "overly" mass-produced because they ake 45,000 rifles, but Colt, Armalite and RRA are not "overly" mass-produced because they only make around 15,000 ?? All of them represent mass production - and use the exact same assembly and manufacturing techniques.

And, btw - those numbers are small. You want to talk about "verly" mass-producing something, talk about M1 garands during the war.

But because there are greater numbers of Bushmasters in circulation, there are going to be more instances of broken Bushmasters. Not because they have a higher failure rate, but because there are simply more of them.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:27:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 7:27:39 AM EDT by donovan007007]
exactly my point, "more of them, more failures" I am very thankful of bushies failures because so far they have bought me two new carbines and other accessories i'm chillin like a villian because of bushmasters F-ups.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:35:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
exactly my point, "more of them, more failures" I am very thankful of bushies failures because so far they have bought me two new carbines and other accessories i'm chillin like a villian because of bushmasters F-ups.



Got it

My point (for people who might have misunderstood) is just that I don't know of any evidence that Bushmaster has a higher failure RATE than Colt, Armalite, etc - they are just as reliable and high quality. People just see more of their failures because of the greater numbers of the rifles.

So it's not really a Bushmater weakness, at all.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:41:57 AM EDT
i have found no weaknesses in my bushmaster's
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:48:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 7:49:37 AM EDT by sapper326]
+1 for Bushmaster. I have three and all have much ammo through them with no issues to date.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:10:16 AM EDT
The trigger on my Bushmaster was very rough out of the box but after about 1000 rounds it was fine.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:25:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
Seen these posts, and had to reply. This is 7K+ of WOlf with no cleaings. Finally broke 2 lugs next to ejector after 9K= no clean, and 12K+ rounds total. Not a Bushy BG, but aren't they all made from the same supplier anyways.
www.hunt101.com/img/311678.jpg
Can you tell I don't like shiny stuff



How bad was she running through all of that?

Also, I think the rumor of weak Bushy bolts was caused by the earlier run of BAR-10 bolts which did have weak points that ended up in a few cases of owners experiencing bolt failures. The last I heard, Bushmaster did fix it, but it still has nothing to do with their AR15 bolts.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 2:39:58 PM EDT
It was still hard to make the choice... When I got on the phone and started rattling my credit card number I was having second thoughts.... Thinking I should have ordered the other, or at least checked around some more....

But I couldn't take it anymore... I had to have an AR...

I even thought of running over to my favorite gunshop and laying down extra money just to have it right now!

But I didn't...

I shopped wisely... (I think)

I got the best price I could find...

I ordered the Bushmaster M4A3
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 2:46:07 PM EDT
Great choice and I think you will be very happy with your new rifle and thanks for supperting my local economy!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:20:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
How bad was she running through all of that?
.



Ran perfectly whn I wan't trying to bumpfire. Only problems were with occasional stickies.


You don't want to see my car

BOT, my only gripe with Bushies is the plastic trigger guard. During forcible mag extractions I have bent them into the trigger.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:40:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sapper326:
Great choice and I think you will be very happy with your new rifle and thanks for supperting my local economy!hr


Thank you and you're welcome hose
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:05:48 AM EDT



Originally Posted By JeffCsr:

Plastic trigger guard... good excuse to buy one of those winter trigger guards I've seen





Thats a damn good idea... Magpul makes a real nice one too...

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:19:46 AM EDT
I think you will be pleased. I have always found BFI uses great quality components, and their barrels are very accurate.
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