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Posted: 8/15/2004 7:32:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 7:37:10 PM EST by odumatt]


I can't decide.........


Bushmaster
Colt
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 7:39:15 PM EST
go with the BM just as good of quality for less.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 7:42:51 PM EST
We're buying them through the department and I think they will be pretty close in cost. I don't think there is any advantage to one over the other.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:06:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 8:07:19 PM EST by knightone]
Uh oh. Here it goes again.

What is your department looking for? 20", carbine, M4 type?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:38:38 PM EST
Easy choice...

Colt has oddball trigger/hammer pins, sear block so you can't use some after market triggers. And that weird front pivot.

Bushmaster uses parts which interchange with all other brands (but Colt). So you can buy an upper and swap around easily without mickey mouse adapters.

Of these two, Bushmaster is your best bet here.

I have nothing against Colt, just dislike the lack of standardization (and really dislike the political reasons for it). If Colt made standard pushpin front pivot and FCG pins, and dropped the unnecessary sear block, they would be just fine.

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:45:33 PM EST
Colt.......end of disscussion
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:48:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 8:51:52 PM EST by knightone]

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Easy choice...

Colt has oddball trigger/hammer pins, sear block so you can't use some after market triggers. And that weird front pivot.

Bushmaster uses parts which interchange with all other brands (but Colt). So you can buy an upper and swap around easily without mickey mouse adapters.

Of these two, Bushmaster is your best bet here.

I have nothing against Colt, just dislike the lack of standardization (and really dislike the political reasons for it). If Colt made standard pushpin front pivot and FCG pins, and dropped the unnecessary sear block, they would be just fine.




LEO Colts hould have a push pin instead of the screw type front pivot (so does the civilian MT6400C). These should be standard size as well, Colt hasn't made the larger pivot pin in over a decade.

The trigger pins are not a big deal as the parts can be found in a lot of places and many aftermarket triggers are made in large pin format as well. But yeah, the reason behind doing it is not cool.

Colt M4s/carbines have extended feed ramps and come with extra power extraction springs and heavy buffers as standard. That would be incentive to get them. If it is a 20" patrol model, I say get the Bushhmaster as there would be no noticeable difference. Colt does take some extra steps in QC, but I have never had a problem with Bushmaster rifles or components.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:52:51 PM EST
Colt.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:57:57 PM EST
Ahhhh...............I have one of each. Like them both.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 1:54:03 AM EST
Buying them with your funds (individual officer), or buying them to be department weapons? Big difference. I have carried both, and have seen plenty of each. They both stand up well.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 3:34:28 AM EST
My personal choice would be the Bushy, I'm up to three of them now and working on a fourth...However, I think either or would serve you well...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:01:04 AM EST
Look where you are located. Now think about service and parts being readily available the same day.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:08:47 AM EST
More law enforcement agencies use Colt. Sounds like a clue to me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:54:36 AM EST
The order for the Bushys was going to go in today, but someone threw Colt into the mix and now everyone is confused. Whatever we order it is going to be the M4 type with the 16" barrel. We are buying the these with our funds, but getting reimbursed by the department from our clothing allotment. The rifle's will be our own and no one elses.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:09:22 AM EST
Re-read Knightone's post. With what you want (16" M4 versions) the Colt is a better weapon.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:24:26 PM EST
Better how? Isn't the heavy buffer for full auto fire? I've got both, fired both extensively, and see no difference other than the fact that the Colt is a couple hundred dollars more and has those idiot oversized proprietary fire control pins. Why? So Colt can pander to the gun grabbers AND jack us on the purchase of spare parts at the same time. Phooey on Colt. They don't have anything I need that isn't supplied by someone else cheaper, and as good or better quality. This goes for their overpriced M1911 type pistols as well. My Series '70 is my baby, but it was the last from Colt.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:41:03 PM EST
There are several differences between those two that have been gone over many times in the past.
Not only that, but several well respected people have chimed in before and have stated that the Colt has less problems. Period. Your sample of 1 to 1 would not show this.

Please note when you re-read the thread that it was already stated the weapons will cost him about the same.

Please cite your source or other information for stating that the fire control pins are an attempt to get people to spend more money. As was stated before, in this same thread, even Bushmaster makes the parts to fit in a Colt.
BTW- how many times have you replaced the fire control pins in your weapons? I will bet thast you have not. Kind of a the wrong thing to hang your opinion on....

So...we have data in from the field the Colts are more reliable.
We have no established reason to complain about fire control pin sizes.
We have no real price difference.

Mr WaA135 - please tell me why he should go with Bushmaster other than your opinion. I will give you the benifit of the doubt, as you are very new here, and assume you do not know about the previous threads or have searched for them.
If you do have data saying something else- Lets have it! Seriously!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:44:43 PM EST
If it's not a Colt, it's a copy
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 1:06:06 PM EST
Well, the State of CT has made my decision for me. CT, MA and NJ have their own assault weapons ban and do not allow individual officer's to own such weapons. I get to buy a run of the mill rifle I guess. I will prolly buy a Bushy and make some changes to it for now. Thanks for the input everyone.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:43:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 5:22:47 PM EST by WaA135]
Mike T, you are offering your opinion as well. Do you have data? What about results from side by side destructive testing or fire until failure? Why did Colt go to non-milspec fire control pins? Because they're cooler? Because they work better? For some time the only (real) internal parts you could get were cost efficient USGI contract and high priced Colt. Do you keep spare fire control parts? Why? I've replaced mine several times to improve trigger pull, modify trigger pull, swap out triggers/sears, and replace a worn sear, etc. Why did Colt lose the M16A2 contract to FN?

I own two Colts. One is for sale. As far as reliability and accuracy, I have found absolutely no difference between Colt and Bushmaster, although few of us are good enough to shoot to the potential of any Bushmaster or Colt. As far as workmanship, perhaps the old Colts of the 1980's were a little better finished vs. Oly or early Bushmaster, but I see zero to little difference in the new black Colt stuff and Bushmaster. In a police department I would go to something with milspec compatability. That ain't Colt unless it is a true M4. Someone correct me, but is Colt offering milspec to LEO's? I see no difference in the two other than logo's. Factor in Colt's sellout and the silly pin thing (again Colt did that for a reason, and it wasn't product improvement). I buy Bushmaster now. Also, while I am giving opinions, Let me add that comparatively speaking (price and quality) Colt M1911 style pistols are not the equal of SA or Kimber. Fortunately, I am not price sensative between Colt, Bushmaster, and RRA. But I don't buy Colt anymore, I buy Bushmaster and am trying RRA. I'm not going to pay $800 for an upper that I cannot differentiate from a $500 upper in appearance and performance. Please post a thread providing testing and evidence, not anecdote, as to why Colt is better. If there is destructive testing and mean time failure comparison over thousands and thousands of rounds I'd love to see it. I'll change my position. However, if nothing more than anecdote is offered, I'm trusting my first hand experience over your as yet unsupported opinion.


Originally Posted By Mike_T:
There are several differences between those two that have been gone over many times in the past.
Not only that, but several well respected people have chimed in before and have stated that the Colt has less problems. Period. Your sample of 1 to 1 would not show this.

Please note when you re-read the thread that it was already stated the weapons will cost him about the same.

Please cite your source or other information for stating that the fire control pins are an attempt to get people to spend more money. As was stated before, in this same thread, even Bushmaster makes the parts to fit in a Colt.
BTW- how many times have you replaced the fire control pins in your weapons? I will bet thast you have not. Kind of a the wrong thing to hang your opinion on....

So...we have data in from the field the Colts are more reliable.
We have no established reason to complain about fire control pin sizes.
We have no real price difference.

Mr WaA135 - please tell me why he should go with Bushmaster other than your opinion. I will give you the benifit of the doubt, as you are very new here, and assume you do not know about the previous threads or have searched for them.
If you do have data saying something else- Lets have it! Seriously!

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:55:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By WaA135:
I've been here for four years and under my previous name had as many posts as you Mike.




IT'S 3RDTK... BAN HIM!!!


Stainless



ps. i REALLY hope you get that joke.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:59:30 PM EST
Good grief, please don't call me that Stokes banned me for three days for replying to someone openly on my WTS ad. BTW, Stokes was also selling a 6601 at the same time, but I did apparently post one too many times with a reply re pics in technical violation of a rule. I felt that yanking my ad and banning me without warning was harsh so I chose not to grovel to keep my old name.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:42:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By WaA135:
Mike T, you are offering your opinion as well. Do you have data? What about results from side by side destructive testing or fire until failure? Why did Colt go to non-milspec fire control pins? Because they're cooler? Because they work better? For some time the only (real) internal parts you could get were cost efficient USGI contract and high priced Colt. Do you keep spare fire control parts? Why? I've replaced mine several times to improve trigger pull, modify trigger pull, swap out triggers/sears, and replace a worn sear, etc. Why did Colt lose the M16A2 contract to FN?

I own two Colts. One is for sale. As far as reliability and accuracy, I have found absolutely no difference between Colt and Bushmaster, although few of us are good enough to shoot to the potential of any Bushmaster or Colt. As far as workmanship, perhaps the old Colts of the 1980's were a little better finished vs. Oly or early Bushmaster, but I see zero to little difference in the new black Colt stuff and Bushmaster. In a police department I would go to something with milspec compatability. That ain't Colt unless it is a true M4. Someone correct me, but is Colt offering milspec to LEO's? I see no difference in the two other than logo's. Factor in Colt's sellout and the silly pin thing (again Colt did that for a reason, and it wasn't product improvement). I buy Bushmaster now. Also, while I am giving opinions, Let me add that comparatively speaking (price and quality) Colt M1911 style pistols are not the equal of SA or Kimber. Fortunately, I am not price sensative between Colt, Bushmaster, and RRA. But I don't buy Colt anymore, I buy Bushmaster and am trying RRA. I'm not going to pay $800 for an upper that I cannot differentiate from a $500 upper in appearance and performance. Please post a thread providing testing and evidence, not anecdote, as to why Colt is better. If there is destructive testing and mean time failure comparison over thousands and thousands of rounds I'd love to see it. I'll change my position. However, if nothing more than anecdote is offered, I'm trusting my first hand experience over your as yet unsupported opinion.





Actually, there is data on this posted on this very website, that is available to you. I submit that you should do a search for similar topics like this. In one, a very credible authority, Pat Rogers, stated exactly what you are looking for. In thousands of weapons going through clasees, he stated that Colt was the most reliable and that Bushmaster was a distant second. Other well respected people chimed in also.
Make of that what you will, but the data sample was very large and corresponds to my own more limited data as well. I do see differences in the performance between the M4 style Colts and others. My sample is much more than 2 or 3 also.

You have the unsupported opinion here. ..unless you can provide date otherwise.

Do you really believe Colt went to the different pins/etc so they could screw the consumer? I would say that you really don't know why it is so if you believe that. As to the M-16 contract, are you aware of the FN government subsidy that reduces their price? Do you think that did not play a part in their selection? (No knock at FN they are a very good product also)

You Sir, are entitled to your opinion. Others with much more experience state their data is different than yours. I have provided you with the starting point to gather your own facts.

BTW- I happen to think the Bushmaster A2's and A3's are the best weapon BM makes. These are better than the comperabel full size weapon from Colt and others. Just to let you know this is not a BM bash.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:44:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 6:45:26 PM EST by Mike_T]

Originally Posted By Stainless:

Originally Posted By WaA135:
I've been here for four years and under my previous name had as many posts as you Mike.




IT'S 3RDTK... BAN HIM!!!


Stainless



ps. i REALLY hope you get that joke.



WAA135, I don't use post counts as an indicator of a person's knowledge. I was referring to your account startup date as of this month.

ETA- I would much rather hear information from a low count new person than an old blowhard with 10, 000 posts of "IBTL" or +1....
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:51:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 7:54:53 PM EST by BFIBri]
Just my 2 cents worth.... I just bought my first AR, a BM Realtree Grey Camo 20inch A2 target model.
I talked to many many dealers before I bought one and alot of them recommended Bushmaster.


Bri
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:13:55 PM EST
I am going to go with the civilian Bushmaster M4 with the Izzy brake and hat
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:14:00 PM EST
I actually have each of these exact weapons.....

Only differences between the two....

Colt has the larger trigger and hammer pins

Bushmaster has the smaller (standard) pins

Colt has the M4 feed ramps

Bushmaster has the regular feedramps

Colt has a slightly stronger extractor spring w/ black insert

Bushmaster has the regular spring with blue insert

Colt has an "H" buffer (105 grams)

Bushmaster has standard buffer (85 grams)

Colt has the larger M4 fore stock

Bushmaster has the smaller stock

Both have the standard take down pins (this model Colt does not have the screw)

No sear block on the Colt either

Colt costs about $809 (officer price)

Bushmaster about $750 (officer price)



Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:32:29 PM EST
That was the information I was lookng for Mike. I'll search the thread. As for fire control pins, I don't think Colt did it to screw the consumer any more than the silly block. I think making more money for awhile by having the only worthwhile spares and replacements (to include 2 stage) was an added bonus of trying to appease gun grabbers. I don't think their board and management didn't smirk a bit at that decision. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Colt, I've had six of them. I'm just saying for my purposes I don't see a difference. I went with a Bushmaster on my last purchase for the same reason Uncle Sugar went with an FN, Price difference, no real perceptible difference in quality. I'll always have at least one Colt around.
regards,
WaA
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:41:36 AM EST
Actually, IMHO you are spot on regarding their 1911's. Others have taken over as Colt expected their name to carry them in pistol sales when others that you mentioned before did a better job for less. Better products for less money.

FWIW- the fire control pin size differences as well as the sear blocks are restrictions placed upon Colt by ATF.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:54:57 AM EST
Yep, that is regrettable. The company that started the M1911 isn't competing. I lost interest in Colt with the Series 80. My oldest Colt is a Series 70 Clark customized 1970's vintage. This is not rhetoric, but an honest question: Why doesn't ATF place the same fire control restrictions on the other manufacturers? Why wouldn't Colt go back to milspec? If you have the link to the Colt v. Bushmaster thread, please post it.
tks.


Originally Posted By Mike_T:
Actually, IMHO you are spot on regarding their 1911's. Others have taken over as Colt expected their name to carry them in pistol sales when others that you mentioned before did a better job for less. Better products for less money.

FWIW- the fire control pin size differences as well as the sear blocks are restrictions placed upon Colt by ATF.

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:23:04 AM EST
I would post the link if I could, but I can not go back far enough in a search. I will email you a link from another source though.


The ATF does so because they can. Seriously. It is because Colt is the only US manufacturer with a military contract that can sell to the general public. FN has the A2/A3 contract but cannot sell to the public. The ATF makes them do that to ensure that full auto parts can not be readily adapted to their weapons. Basically the ATF is giving us and Colt an F. U.

BTW I am not talking about unit procurements with special funds (such as a few AR-10's etc in service) That is an authorized purchase but not a procurement contract.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:25:35 AM EST
Colt.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 1:27:41 PM EST
It's going to be the civilian verson for the M4 made by Bushmaster. Thanks everyone
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 2:37:13 PM EST
Here is the thread that I believe Mike_T is referring to.

Tactical Forums

Here is a thread here on the board.

Tweak's thread

I've argued in these threads many times so I'm just gonna sit this one out. Do the research and draw your own conclusions. BTW, my preference is to use only Colt parts if at all possible. I will also use RRA receivers with Colt barrels and internals.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:48:55 PM EST
Well Mike T, after all this I'm keeping my 6601. You win . The pin thing is a result of the mean ole ATF and not profiteering Colt. But their .45's are still overpriced and have sucked since the 70's...........
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:40:07 AM EST
Can't argue on the pistol quality with you...... I experienced some of the pistol "quality" myself and would go elsewhere for that.

Beers on me WAA135


Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:24:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaA135:
Well Mike T, after all this I'm keeping my 6601. You win . The pin thing is a result of the mean ole ATF and not profiteering Colt. But their .45's are still overpriced and have sucked since the 70's...........



Quick note on Colt AR Price Parts: I think the problem here is that Colt doesn't actually sell the parts. The parts prices are artificially inflated by those that have them.

My Colt 6400C was 80$ more than my brothers BM M4, but had the side sling mount and true M4 handguards, which cost him 90$ to get in an attempt to copy me. :)

For 1911s: Colt's bad quality runs from about 75-95 IMO. The current guns are superbly made in general, and use higher quality parts than any of the other comparable manufacturers. Kimber's S2 (firing pin block ripped from the Schwartz safety) is retarded. S&W's is nicer, and SIG & Para use the S80 parts. Leaving Springfield (with Ti firing pin and oddball lock in MSH) and Dan Wesson as the last FPB-less 1911's.

Oh, except Colt now makes the 70 series again (has for a couple years now), including my Gunsite Pistol, which is pre-S80 action.

Colt also developed a new feed ramp (termed "dimple" on 1911forum) which greatly improves hollowpoint feeding without ramping & polishing. Check out the new 1991's for a great value (nicer polished blue than anything in it's price range, stainless barrel, though it is indeed a S80).

Sorry for the side track.
One thing I dislike with Colt AR's is the plastic buffer in some of them. Easy fix (as easy as replacing BM's plastic trigger guard, but a lot easier than replacing BM's shitty delta-springs IMO) but still a silly freaking way to save money. Never heard of a problem with them (like not having a problem with the plastic MSH on 1911's) but it's still an aberration.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:53:23 AM EST
COLT
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:26:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By NightOwl:

Quick note on Colt AR Price Parts: I think the problem here is that Colt doesn't actually sell the parts. The parts prices are artificially inflated by those that have them.



Actually, the parts prices are a reflection of what Colt charges the distributors. The distributors are not buying low and selling high. They are buying high and selling higher.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:06:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By NightOwl:

Quick note on Colt AR Price Parts: I think the problem here is that Colt doesn't actually sell the parts. The parts prices are artificially inflated by those that have them.



Actually, the parts prices are a reflection of what Colt charges the distributors. The distributors are not buying low and selling high. They are buying high and selling higher.



I'm sure to some extent, but a lot of the shotgun news folks are selling take-off parts by stripping LEO guns, so there's more to it than just Colt overcharging.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:12:24 PM EST
Go DPMS w/ACE skel stocks.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:33:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
If it's not a Colt Armalite, it's a copy



There I fixed that for you.....

Go with the Bushmaster. Colt is overpriced and overrated!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:54:08 AM EST
I just bought an RRA upper and lower. They seem to be getting ALOT of good press re workmanship, etc., and got that gubment contract. Is this just a passing fad or real? Anybody got ALOT of RRA trigger time so as to compare Colt v. RRA?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:03:30 AM EST
I'll be getting an M4-gery.
Colt is the way I'm going.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:34:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By WaA135:
I just bought an RRA upper and lower. They seem to be getting ALOT of good press re workmanship, etc., and got that gubment contract. Is this just a passing fad or real? Anybody got ALOT of RRA trigger time so as to compare Colt v. RRA?



I typically use Colt parts, but will gladly use RRA receivers if need be. Bushy has more QC issues than I'd care to deal with and I'm not really into scrutinizing every part before I use it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:36:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By GC456:

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
If it's not a Colt Armalite, it's a copy



There I fixed that for you.....

Go with the Bushmaster. Colt is overpriced and overrated!



You must have missed the thread I posted above. There are some pretty knowledgeable folks who don't share your point of view.
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