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Posted: 10/7/2006 11:18:08 AM EDT
After a year and a half of no problemos, it starts to do the FTE thing. Read quite a bit about it, sounded like a dirty chamber. Shot mostly Wolf thru it (Polyformence and lacquer).

Rounds (fired) jammed in chamber, next round out of mag plows into the fired case. Cleaned several times, no joy. So.....

Sent off to Maine, they tell me the barrel had a "void" in it due to "underpressure round being fired"hout
I have been happy with Bushmaster for a long time (this was my 3rd one), but I kind of thought it was a crock that they wouldn't cover it.

hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 11:42:58 AM EDT
[#1]
I think bushmaster will only warranty guns if you shoot US manufactored ammo.  I believe it is written in their policy.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 11:54:14 AM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
the barrel had a "void" in it due to "underpressure round being fired




Link Posted: 10/7/2006 12:02:30 PM EDT
[#3]
a void?how wouldd an under pressured round do damage to a chamber designed to take 52,000 psi...can some one explain a "void"and what it is and can it do what bushmaster claims it did?a void,sounds like a manufacturing defect,any info on a void would be great.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 1:23:42 PM EDT
[#4]
yup yup, a "void"here
The rep added, without pausing "but we will be happy to sell you a new barrel"....

Should I go for the Bushy one, or get it elsewhere? Their price was $205.00, which wasn't bad compared to the retail prices on their website.

Im still P.O'ed at the "underpressure" explanation. ugh.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 2:26:09 PM EDT
[#5]
that's because they dont warranty stuff caused by shitty ammo.

Most, if not all companies have this policy.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 2:44:07 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
that's because they dont warranty stuff caused by shitty ammo.

Most, if not all companies have this policy.


Bushmaster doesn't seem to have a problem with wolf:

www.bushmaster.com/documents/ammoadvisory.pdf
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 2:53:11 PM EDT
[#7]
So an under powered rnd caused a void in your barrel now causing failure to extract. Sounds like BS to me. Unless accuarcy has dropped off buy yourself a wolf xp extracter spring or a #60 (?) o-ring. Check the primers of the stuck cases for over pressure signs, may just be your ammo especially if you were shooting on very hot days. Could be carbon build up in leade area of chamber.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 2:59:57 PM EDT
[#8]
All the Wolf primers were flattened out, but only some of the M855 (LC-1996 headstamp) flattened. I tried Guatemalin surp, Winchester 62gr. FMJ white box, and lots of others, but same stuck case problem.

Where would I find the #60 gas rings?
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 3:03:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Sounds like a BS answer.  I would be inclined to get it back, untouched, and then take it to a reputable gunsmith.  If the bbl needs replacing then take the old bbl and find what the defect is and where.  If it isn't in the chamber area, that would not cause FTE problems.  A machining mark, void (due to bad spot in the steel), or deliberate damage to the inside of the barrel would be relatively easy to determine which upon sectioning it.  (Cutting the bad part out to examine what the problem was.)  

Low pressure loads do not damage barrels, unless a bullet sticks part-way down.

Dave.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 3:06:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Do you have to use a rod to extract the round?  or just clear and cycle?
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 3:14:08 PM EDT
[#11]
No rounds ever got stuck in the barrel. Even the rep stated that such a thing would have cause major damage.

I did have to use a cleaning rod and some major force to get all the stuck cases out. They had the black streaks typical of a fouled chamber, but it was squeaky clean. I stripped it completley several times before several trips to the range to find out what was going on.

Link Posted: 10/7/2006 3:27:17 PM EDT
[#12]
I've had similar issues to that, case stuck in the chamber.  I found that a combo of ed's Red  and brake cleaner and I rarely have issues.  The only time I get issues is shooting wolf/monarch, after while the chamber gets dirty and gives me fits.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 6:00:52 PM EDT
[#13]
That Bushmaster add counting WOLF as a good ammo to use I would say means a new barrel at no cost and id contact them again and refer to their own add that wolf is among the ammo they used and in doing that are saying its good I think.So if they say its ok then they pay.Low pressure my ass,damn things strong enough to take 52000 psi then low pressure isnt gonna do it.I say manufacturing defect.After all they only MP test sample barrels from a complete lot of barrels made theres bound to be a defect from time to time.
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 6:14:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Sounds like to me. I could see if there was a bulged barrel or a round stuck in the barrel etc. But an underpowered one? Get it back take it to a good gunsmith in your area that know AR's. My experance with bushmaster and problems is if they dont know what it is. They 1 blame you or 2 send it back "fixed" and then you play cross country ping pong at $35 a bounce sending it back. That's what happened to me and the M17. Till you just give up. To bad
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 6:22:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Post this in their forum and start bashing them.
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 9:33:53 AM EDT
[#16]
they pay the shipping to send it back, right? even if they havent done any work on it?

edit: just sent this...

height=8
I am going to request that my upper be sent back with the barrel not being replaced. I have given the situation some thought, and if " an underpressure round" was the cause, I do not think it is fair that a barrel designed for 52,000 psi would "fail" because of that. I shall simply rpelace the barrel with another from a different manufacturer for the time being and seriously re-think what manufacturer to purchase from when it comes time to purchase another AR-style weapon.
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 10:12:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Maybe i missed it, but what kinda ammo were you shooting? Bushmaster only lists 3 to avoid..(plus no reloads at all)(not even 3d????)

fred
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 10:20:04 AM EDT
[#18]
Lake City and Wolf. Wolf is listen on their website as ok
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 10:36:20 AM EDT
[#19]
From what I read some shooters have a problem with Wolf and their Bushy, others don't. My shooting buddy gets at least one out of 100 that won't extract everytime he shoots. Rifle is always well cleaned after every 200 round range session. A cleaning rod is always needed to push out the spent cartridge.

For this reason , I avoid Wolf .223 ammo in my AR's.
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 10:40:58 AM EDT
[#20]
it was every other round with LC, almost every round with Wolf. Every other with Black Hills. All were stuck so bad that I needed a cleaning rod to force them out.
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 10:49:17 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
For this reason , I avoid Wolf .223 ammo in my AR's.


+1!
Link Posted: 10/17/2006 11:17:03 AM EDT
[#22]



i've never had a problem with wolf in any of my guns *ever*, and i shoot tons of wolf. the only "problem" i've ever had was a bad round of brass-cased american made ammo that KB'd an entire rifle...


Link Posted: 10/21/2006 11:37:47 AM EDT
[#23]
height=8
Just wanted to provide you some information regarding the upper that was damaged.  You are correct in that the barrel is rated for 52,000 psi but what happens with an under pressure round can be the same result as an over pressure.  An under pressure round causes the bullet to move slow thus not getting to the gas port in time or exiting the barrel so that the pressure curve is not correct and the barrel goes to excessive pressure.  An over pressure round is just that too powerful but the under pressure round can cause the same effect due to time traveling down the barrel.  Even thought we are talking a very small amount of time it is still a factor.  Hope this alleviates some of your concerns with the barrels.  If you have any further questions please contact me either via e-mail or at 1-800-998-7928.

Thank you



hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/21/2006 11:45:18 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
All the Wolf primers were flattened out...


Steel case or M193 Wolf?

I would scrub the chamber really good, replece the extractor and use either the Colts copper colored extracter spring or a SAW or Wolf spring.

If that doesnt work go in with a couple friends and buy ned Christiansons chamber reamer.
Link Posted: 10/21/2006 11:54:54 AM EDT
[#25]
steel case (both Polyformence and lacquer)

Link Posted: 10/21/2006 12:05:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Whats the round count on the Brl?  Any chance its eroded gas port? Usualy not an issue until over 5,000 rounds, but full auto or lots of rapid fire can make it a problem sooner.
Link Posted: 10/21/2006 1:09:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.
Link Posted: 10/21/2006 3:59:32 PM EDT
[#28]
tough break on the barrel, hope Bushmaster dose the right thing and replaces barrel under warranty, stand your ground on this one with them, they need to replace for FREE. and stay away from wolf ammo if you can help it. good luck oscar. Stu
Link Posted: 10/21/2006 9:59:33 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.


Yes.

Per Dean Caputo (Colts factory armorer instructor)
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 1:05:37 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.

Yes, it will damage the chrome lining but chrome lining but chrome lining isn't necessary. Modern ammunition isn't corrosive and unless you're going to dunk your barrel in salt water for extended periods of time, I wouldn't worry about it. I'd rather have a non-chromed chamber that shoots than one that's chrome lined but doesn't extract.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 4:21:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Wow.  That kind of BS answer from Bushmaster is surprising.  You'd think they would be /embarassed/ to make a statement of that sort.  Ask to speak with a manager, tell them you were using quality ammunition with Wolf specifically listed on their website as okay to use, and let them know you expect the problem to be fixed under warranty.

If they still refuse, instruct them to send the item back to you unaltered.  Bushmaster was already "second tier" in my book, and your experience only reinforces my belief.  Any company that would spit out such a crap answer needs to shift their market focus to manufacturing $7 blenders for Wal-Mart.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 5:09:47 AM EDT
[#32]
Stop shooting garbage ammo. I own a businees myself. I'm a contractor. One we layed a ceramic kitchen floor and that night the homeowners walked all over it (after i told them to stay off of it) and polished it with automotive wax while the grout was curing causing it to crack and scale. They expected me to relay the floor for free.

I would surmise the rep BS'd you and that the steel case of the wolf ammo has hashed your extractor and you have a filthy chamber. If the rounds are getting stuck in the chamber, the cases are expanding and getting stuck.

Stop shooting wolf ammo in your AR. I doubt your barrle needs replacement.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 5:12:11 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.


Yes.

Per Dean Caputo (Colts factory armorer instructor)


Really? Yet another reason not to buy Colt. This is the reason why M14 rifles were headspaced by lapping the bolt lugs. As to not ream the chamber as to not destroy the lining.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 6:21:55 AM EDT
[#34]
No offence intended here, but are you sure we know the whole story? If so, proceed to the next paragraph...

If you haven't done so already, I'd post this and their "approved" ammo list from their website for all to see on the Bushy industry forum. Maybe you just got some idiot on the phone and Jarrod can straighten this out. I'd think the cost of a barrel wouldn't be worth the bad publicity.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 6:52:36 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.


Yes.

Per Dean Caputo (Colts factory armorer instructor)


Really? Yet another reason not to buy Colt. This is the reason why M14 rifles were headspaced by lapping the bolt lugs. As to not ream the chamber as to not destroy the lining.


How is this a reason not to buy Colt specifically? Or do you mean the entire AR platform? Any chromed chamber will get damaged if you take a chamber reamer to it regardless of who makes it. Also, this guy is having problems with a BUSHMASTER barrel, not a Colt. Also, if he has a tight chamber, what would it help to adjust the headspacing? The chamber needs to be cut to the right dimensions. Just trying to get some clarification here...
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 11:31:26 AM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you use a chamber reamer on a chrome lined barrel?I would think that could damage the chrome lining.

Yes, it will damage the chrome lining...


the ned christianson chamber reamer only cuts the throat to correct 5.56mm dimensions. The chrome lining in the throat is already eroded from firing the weapon. So your not damaging anything by using the chamber reamer.

In Pat Rogers classes carbines from several manufacturers often have issues due to .223 chambers and Pat has no problem with using the chamber reamer. Go read some of his AAR's.
Link Posted: 10/22/2006 1:29:59 PM EDT
[#37]
AR15fan, you have to quote the rest of my comment. Yes, it will damage the chrome lining but it's not going to really cause any problems as a AR w/o a chrome chamber will be just fine.

I'm familiary with NC's 5.56 neck & throat reamer too. It's not a chamber reamer though, it only changes the neck & throat area from .223 to 5.56 spec. A "chamber reamer" is for the entire chamber. I'm thinking he might have a tight chamber as his failures are not consistant with a  5.56-in-a-223 chamber problem.

It sounds like it's some sort of "buildup" in the chamber from shooting Wolf (which is the filthiest ammo ever). I would have a gunsmith run a 5.56 chamber reamer just to make sure the entire chamber is in spec. I would ask someone like Randall (ar15barrels.com) as he does barrel finishing and maybe he could solve it...

Link Posted: 10/29/2006 9:53:03 AM EDT
[#38]
We will send back your upper to you and sorry you had a bad experience with our product.  It’s not that we don’t stand behind our product but when a barrel has been carefully inspected but experienced gunsmiths and they can determine it was definitely an ammo problem we offer to repair at very reasonable cost to the owner.  I would suggest you contact the ammo company as they will look at it and many times pay for the repair.  They have done this with us before.

Thank you and you should the upper next week.



"I would suggest you contact the ammo company as they will look at it and many times pay for the repair".

So, pay them (Bushmaster) the MONEY, then your on your own telling the ammo company "it was your round, I don't know exactly what round it is, I don't have it for proof, but it was your round, Bushmater told me so".

"We offer to repair at very reasonable cost to the owner"

I looked on the website, they offered to sell me the barrel at the SAME PRICE as one on the website......No discount for being a loyal AR owner. I have owned 4 Bushmasters since I was 16....NO MORE EVER.

BEFORE YOU BUY A BUSHY, THINK ABOUT THIS. GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:10:35 AM EDT
[#39]
I stopped with Bushy after I had a defective FSB.

To actually put the roll pin in to trap the gas tube, you had to maul the pin. Once you got it through, the pin was in a banana shape.

I sent the thing to bushmaster and they sent it right back with the roll pin installed and the gas tube in place. I took the new pin out and it was banana shaped! Did the same thing with mutliple gas tubes. It would be fine and dandy, but the banana shaped roll pin would work itself out of the FSB after two mags worth of Ammo.

F that S

No more bushmaster for me. CMMG, SABRE, or LMT barrels from now on.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:25:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Could it be a undersized gas port on the barrel? Bushy is known to have undersize gas port on some barrels.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:32:14 AM EDT
[#41]
A void in the barrle...are you sure they didnt say, You voided the warrenty on the barrle?

I saw a guy who blew up his Bushy using the exact ammo they told him not to...they fixed his weapon under warrenty....

Why arent they doing this for you......

Me thinks you are not giving us the full story here
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 12:07:25 PM EDT
[#42]
He didnt use un aproved ammo..the Bushmaster web site recomends wolf and any AR worth its salt should eat anything if its gonna be called and used as a combat rifle,and after this and 4 Bushmasters I wont be buying anything from them at all..its bad enough they inflate the prices of parts...but to not take care of this problem..fuck em.Ill spend the extra $100 to get a barrel from CMMG.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 7:22:39 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
No rounds ever got stuck in the barrel. Even the rep stated that such a thing would have cause major damage.

I did have to use a cleaning rod and some major force to get all the stuck cases out. They had the black streaks typical of a fouled chamber, but it was squeaky clean. I stripped it completley several times before several trips to the range to find out what was going on.



So how many stuck cases did you have?
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 7:34:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Thats a bummer. I wish that this had worked out better for you.
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 7:44:02 PM EDT
[#45]
I've had FTE issues using Wolf (ripped right through the rim), so I don't. My AK will eat any and all brands... but it was designed to do that. I use cheap ammo on cheap guns (at least less finicky ones).

I was a once Bushy proponent, but I have had the opportunity to compare their products with others... and found them lacking. They are no Oly, but a close second. Some have had no issues with Wolf of Bushmaster. But, hey, bad lots of parts can surface in any company... so can good ones.

IMHO

buckmeister
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:37:08 PM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Just wanted to provide you some information regarding the upper that was damaged.  You are correct in that the barrel is rated for 52,000 psi but what happens with an under pressure round can be the same result as an over pressure.  An under pressure round causes the bullet to move slow thus not getting to the gas port in time or exiting the barrel so that the pressure curve is not correct and the barrel goes to excessive pressure.  An over pressure round is just that too powerful but the under pressure round can cause the same effect due to time traveling down the barrel.  Even thought we are talking a very small amount of time it is still a factor.  Hope this alleviates some of your concerns with the barrels.  If you have any further questions please contact me either via e-mail or at 1-800-998-7928.

Thank you





This is a lame ass explanation if the rep is refering to detonation as being the culprit of your damaged chamber. However an underloaded cartridge (factory fuckup) will produce an extremely high pressure spike, enough to ring your chamber.

A 223 holds roughly 27gr of powder, normal ignition ignites the cylinder of powder at the base and uniformly burns it to the neck.

Now picture a cartridge with 14gr laying on its side. The primer flash jumps across the air space and ignites all of it at the same time......Detonation.

Its common practice for big bore shooters (45-70) to use small amounts of fast burning powder and lead bullets for practice, however they use a dacron filler to keep powder against the primer.


Link Posted: 10/29/2006 10:45:17 PM EDT
[#47]
I've got about 12,000 rounds of poly wolf through a Bushie 20" upper, there is no "void", it doesn't stick in the chamber, and runs great.

I have 7 AR's, all of them shoot Wolf, none have ever had any problems. I probably have 30k through all those guns put together. If Wolf was really the culprit, don't you think I would be sticking cases, having FTE's, etc?

It's not the ammo. Repeat until you believe.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 3:24:25 AM EDT
[#48]
If wolf was the problem their website wouldnt list it as aproved ammo to use wich it does.Sounds like they are trying to cover up a manufacturing defect.Shame on Bushmaster...yet another company with inflated ego from big sales that also translates to inflated prices for parts.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 4:35:03 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
If wolf was the problem their website wouldnt list it as aproved ammo to use wich it does.Sounds like they are trying to cover up a manufacturing defect.Shame on Bushmaster...yet another company with inflated ego from big sales that also translates to inflated prices for parts.


What a bunch of crap. Please explain the manufacturing 'defect' that allows the rifle to function correctly for a year and a half and thousands of rounds, then suddenly causes the rifle to FTE every shot with steel cased ammo.

The fact, as stated by the original poster, that the rifle ran problem free for more than a year proves the problem is not the fault of Bushmaster. Without inspecting the rifle I cannot say if the chaber is ringed or not, but if it is please explain how you figure Bushmaster is reponsible for a condition that obviously did not exist when the gun was manufactured by them?

Because Bushmaster approves of the use of Wolf ammo does not mean that they become responsible  for damage cause by an out of spec round.





Link Posted: 10/30/2006 5:32:47 AM EDT
[#50]
I'll bet a dollar that if you clean that chamber and replace the extractor and spring you will no longer have any problems.

put a Wolff XP extractor sping in a new extractor and report back to us.

All of my barrels are BM and all of them work super with Wolf ammo.
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