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4/1/2020 6:58:51 AM
Posted: 11/14/2004 8:05:32 PM EDT
Gentlemen, I am a new member to this discussion group and after reading several hundred posts would like to say that you are among the best informed, best mannered groups I have had the honor to come in contact with. I may be a little light on the computer skills but have a lifetime of shooting and reloading (just entering into the 55+ club) behind me. This summer I built my first Beowulf (Entry Model 16 inch) and am on my way to building the 24”. Handloading this round is a must for full enjoyment but we have not been presented bullets for this cartridge that gives much satisfaction. The Entry model needs a 600 grain flatbase mold with the correct nose shape and length along with a small crimp groove and slight bevel at the base to get the bullet started right.

Anyone out there done anything along those lines? Right now I am working with Dan's (at Mountain Molds mountainmolds@mcleodusa.net) bullet design program to come up with the right combination. If anyone else has done some work on this line please let me know.

Again thanks a lot for doing this remarkable work on this excellent discussion group.

Steve Davis
Link Posted: 11/14/2004 8:56:59 PM EDT
Hi Steve,
Welcome to the board !
There is plenty of info here that's for sure.
Sent you an email earlier your site IM was turned off.
Link Posted: 11/15/2004 2:57:18 PM EDT
Got the email, thanks.  That IM was probably attacked by a relentless iron curtain (firewall I think they call it). I say if the computer geeks really want to get in, us old powder burned users will never know they are there. Speaking of computer wizards, I hear that there are some programs that will let you closely approximate an untested combination of powders and bullets. I know enough to approach that carefully but it would be interesting to test the theory against some known loads. Anyone used any of those programs?
Link Posted: 11/15/2004 5:36:44 PM EDT
I had a good time time with the Beowulf this afternoon. Unfortunately I had a box of Alexander Arms 400 Gr JFP Hawks with me which I shared five precious rounds with the local game warden. He scored a less than 1.5 inch group at the local 100 yd range and was hooked. Wisely I turned down his firstborn and his wifes ragged out 65 Mustang, but promised to help him construct his own. I used a AA Entry Upper, DPMS AR-15 Lower, Ace ARFX Entry Skeletonized stock with .5 inch sissy pad, and Sameco G27 Gripper to build mine. (not sexy but enormously useful) I do not hear much mention of the DPMS lower but my favorite Class III dealer said it was among the best work he had seen. Him being the sourpuss he is was a fine recommendation.

Any recommendation of subsonic heavyweight Beowulf loads will be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 11/17/2004 6:25:02 AM EDT
I founf that after a MGI buffer and Wolff 10+ spring you're rounds need a little more muscle to cycle, don't know about subs?????
Link Posted: 11/19/2004 5:30:09 AM EDT
Well, I am off to the camp till the 29th, I will take the Beowulf and 400 gr Hawks plus my Rem 7600 35 Whelen (my small bore in case I feel sporting). For the Christmas hunt I want to be shooting my home brew subsonics so bring on the ideas, I will answer the mail when I get back. Maybe have a good yarn to tell.

Cheers
Steve
Link Posted: 11/19/2004 9:41:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By smdavis1020:
Well, I am off to the camp till the 29th, I will take the Beowulf and 400 gr Hawks plus my Rem 7600 35 Whelen (my small bore in case I feel sporting). For the Christmas hunt I want to be shooting my home brew subsonics so bring on the ideas, I will answer the mail when I get back. Maybe have a good yarn to tell.

Cheers
Steve



I use Sierra 350 grainers as well as the Ranier 335's on wild hogs (locally, we call'em walking bullet traps) in Florida with good results. Hodgdon L'il Gun is the powder of choice, with CCI primers. No clue on velocity as a -former- shooting buddy shot a hole in my chrono.
Link Posted: 12/2/2004 3:04:09 PM EDT
Yep, cronographs and projectiles of any caliber do not mix. I am hot to trot to get something going in the 600 gr division. I did use 400 gr Hawks for this last trip, bad weather, no deer, one wild hog (they are considered varmits here - better leave the .17 Firepopper at home Cuz.....) and an armadillo under a magnolia tree. In my own defense, it was not me that put a water pipe size hole through a foot and a half of magnolia tree (but I did shoot the armadillo though) it musta been the guy with the .17 Firepopper.

Steve
Link Posted: 12/2/2004 8:27:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2004 8:28:04 PM EDT by 444slayer]
Are there not issues with using lead bullets in the gas operated AR?

If not, great. I already have a 600 gr. mold from MM for 500 S&W.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 4:16:48 AM EDT
444Slayer,

It has always been my understanding that lead bullets will eventually clog the gas operating system of the AR-15 action.  I don't have first hand experience with that, but many others have written about it.   I suspect that a small number of rounds fired (as in a typical hunting trip) might not be a problem but that's just a WAG on my part.  I notice some slight lead buildup in the muzzle brake holes on my .45-70 Guide Gun when I shoot 440 grain LBT LFN's.John
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 4:26:14 AM EDT
I was hoping to stir up the troops on the subject of gas operated semi-auto and lead bullets. The opinions vary from minor concideration to "don't do it". I have been told that if the velocities are around 1040 fps that even plain base cast bullets are OK. I would like to generate some discussion about the issue.

With the various SOCOM shooters this has bound to have come up and been significantly worked on.

Steve
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 7:33:12 PM EDT
Steve, I was kind of thinking along the same lines. Especially after seeing the bullet fragmentation that Anthony got with the 334 AA...and it didn't hit anything real hard in that doe he got. It would be interesting to find out what kind of real world bullet performance some of the jacketed stuff coming out for the 500 S&W is going to be like.

I have several big bore handguns-454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh,  500 Linebaugh, and 500 S&W-and I'm here to tell you, the finest hunting bullets you can put through these things are are cast lead LBTs. My personal favorites are WFNGCs from Kelly Brost at Cast Performance Bullets. Not only does he have the finest heat-treated LBTs money can buy, he is a hell of a nice guy and so are the whole bunch that work there. These things will go through both shoulders of a Cape Buffalo-from a handgun. Quite frankly, I'd much rather put a big hole all the way through whatever critter I'm after and let air in on both sides, as Elmer Keith would say, Than to worry about expending all the "energy" in the animal and risk insufficient penetration.

With that said, I'd love to know if anyone has actually done any testing as to what effects lead bullets would have on the AR15 gas system. My wulf should be here next Monday or Tuesday(thanks Alan) and I am seriously considering shooting a quantity of lead bullets through it to see if there are any serious side effects to their use. Worst case scenario would be to clean out the gas port and change the gas tube, Best case scenario would be no significant detrimental effects and the possibility of using some of the finest big bore hunting bullets made.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 8:48:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HACK:
I have several big bore handguns-454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh,  500 Linebaugh, and 500 S&W-



What a coinkydink! Me, too! Please tell me about your .500 Linebaugh.....I have been waiting over 2 years for mine from Mr. Linebaugh himself.

I have Freedom Arms' in .475, .454, and .50AE', and a 8 3/8" 500 S&W.

My .500 Linebaugh is being built on a Super Blackhawk, and is paid for, just waiting. There were 80 people in front of me when I paid up, , and last time I called there were 8.

I have bought some bullets from Cast Performance, but I cast all my own now.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 9:41:02 PM EDT
There you have it Hack, I have some 460 grain WFNGC plinkers to start the process with and work up to the ideal weight velocity ratio in the Beowulf case. I will take your advice and check out the good folks at Cast Performance Bullets, looks like they are only going up to 440 grains right now but I am sure that will change. Dan over at Mountain Molds likes straight wheelweights for raw material but that stuff is getting harder to get.

I told the guys over at the “loose primer pocket” post to read an article from Jan 2004

Guns magazine on the 500 S&W by Charles E Petty,

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470554



It will make your end stand on hair!!!

Here is a pic of the 460 grain WFNGC and Beowulf case.


Thanks

Steve
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 9:47:50 PM EDT
My 500L was built by Gary Reeder at Reeder custom guns. It was built on a stainless Ruger Blackhawk frame. I wanted the most practical power in the smallest package possible for traipsing around in the woods. If you get on Reeder's web site click on custom revolvers, then look for ultimate back up II at the bottom of the right hand column of listed models and click on it and there will be a pic of what I have. It says it has a 3 1/2 inch barrel , but it is closer to 3 3/4 inch.  I did mine with a gold bead front sight and express rear. I love the gun and the six month wait is about what I waited. If I had to nit pick, the lockup is not quite as tight as my Freedom Arms guns, but it is close. FYI-Kelly Brost talked Hornady into doing a run of 500Linebaugh brass and last batch I bought was 40% cheaper than the brass at Buffalo Bore. Might want to give him a call and get some. Probably won't be all he ever gets since he fronted the funds to purchase the tooling to make the brass...but who knows. I managed to acquire two more Rugers, a blued 45 colt blackhawk and a stainless Super blackhawk that will be perfect candidates for conversion. Just haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. Thought about selling one or trading it to Kelly for bullets, he has several of Gary's guns, then have Gary build something with the other one.  I've been kind of waiting to see where the short 500 S&W standardizes. Currently COR BON is producing a short 500 S&W, which would be a sweet caliber to convert a standard Ruger to since it would be basically a 500 Linebaugh, except using .500 bullets instead of .510. It looks like there will soon be a plethora of .500 jacketed bullets to choose from. I believe the COR BON short 500 is the same length as the 44 mag though and I prefer the 500 Linebaugh length...probably doesn't make much diference-just a penis envy thing I guess.

Truth is, to me,  a 435 WFNGC at 1250 FPS out of this little gun gets your attention more so than a 500 S&W with 400 Gr bullets or lighter out of either the 8 3/8 or 4 inch 'smiths.  The 4 inch smith gets the "most heat felt and biggest fireball "award hands down tho.

What kind of cast setup do you have? I'm doing a garage addition and I'm going to do a setup for casting bullets when it is done. Thinking about getting LBT molds, star lubrisizer, and hand ladling in a cast iron pot for these bigger bullets.


It seems to me that the 'wulf should be in the same league as the 500 S&W. It should make up in barrel length what it lacks in pressure when compared to the smith. So with a bullet that won't fragment or tumble, the 'wulf could live up to its fullest potential and be one serious hammer.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 9:55:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2004 9:57:59 PM EDT by HACK]
I type slow as hell, so it takes me a while to get a post up. Cast performance does a 525gr .510 bullet and will do .500s on a custom basis, but they are more spendy.

I've been kind'a putting away some lead for when I get my casting setup done and it just so happens that I have managed to acquire about a dozen bars of linotype. They are triangular shaped bars and I think they weigh around twenty pounds each.
I also have a couple a hundred pounds of wheel weights that I have scrounged.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 10:05:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2004 10:14:31 PM EDT by 444slayer]
I am using 2 Lee Pro 4 furnaces (bottom pour). I had to get the second one when I got my 600 gr. 500 S&W mold. After buying several mols from Ballisticast (That's who makes the molds for CPBC) including the same 440 Hardcast S&W that went into the Corbon ammo, I have switched to Mountain Molds.
Mountain Molds

I put an ad in the paper for Linotype, and ended up buying 1100 pounds of it. I will not bee running out any time soon. I have to find pure lead to mix it with. I can also get wheel weights here locally.
I am using the Lyman 4500 sizer, but a Star would sure be nice to have.

Starline is now selling .475 & .500 Linebaugh brass
Starline Price List

I have the gold bead and v notch setup that Freedom Arms calls "express" sites on my .475. I would like to change all the rest of mt Freedom Arms guns over to that configuration. You can see the gold bead against both light or dark backgrounds, and I just like aiming better with a small round bead.

I have been to Gary Reeder's site and drooled over his guns many times.

Thanks for sharing the info.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 10:22:42 PM EDT
444slayer, I just realized that you are in the same state as Gary Reeder. I think he is in the north end of the state.
How much did that linotype cost you? There is one source of lead that is overlooked. Nuclear medicines are delivered to hospitals in lead pigs and I would love to know if they are pure lead. The radiopharmacutical companies sell them for scrap after they have decayed...at least around here.
I have a couple of these pigs and if I had a hardness tester I could find out...guess I'll have to get one someday.

Why did you go to a 600gr bullet for the 500 S&W? What kind of velocity are you getting? What kind of powder? I use Win 296 in all the big bores. Thinking about checking out surplus wc820.

That is interesting on the brass. Buffalo Bore had exclusive rights to 500L brass from Starline. That is why they thought they could rape you on the price. Must have changed in the last few weeks.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 10:30:24 PM EDT
444slayer
You ever use lead bullets in a Desert Eagle?
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 10:47:54 PM EDT
Hack--Isn't Gary Reeder in AZ? I'm in Arkansas.

I paid .75/# for 1400#, not 1100...$1050.00 for a lifetime supply.......Crazy, huh?
Still, ,much cheaper that it can be bought from Midway, etc.

I wanted a 600 gr. bullet for long rangem because I had read that they shot well. I didn't get a gas check on that mold, becasue I thought the velocity would be low enough I wouldn't need it. That is the only mold out of 10 or so I didn't have made in a gas check design, and I redret it. I am having problems with leading, so the accuracy is not great yet. I think I can get things worked out by messing with the powder type, and possibly the sizing. I just really haven't messed with it in a while. I have not had good luck with Titegoup for low velocity loads with plain base lead bullets (gas cutting). It is fantastic powder for light jacketed or gas check loads. Very consistent, and not case position sensitive.

I have used about 20 lbs. of WC820 so far. It is great powder. Particularly consistent in .454. I clocked some 300 gr. jacketed loads at an honest 1700 fps. They may have been a little over the edge. I just lost a bunch of my load data, or I would give you the load.

I have stayed away from lead bullets in the Desert Eagle. While you might be able to take an AR apart and clean the gas system, there are passages in the DE that would be impossible to clean. I even stay away from plated bullets in it.

I think there was litigation over the .475 & .500 Linebaugh trademarks. I believe the guy at Buffalo Bore bought them,  or thought he did. I know Mr. Linebaugh does not care for him too much. He told me a year or so ago that the brass would be cheaper and more plentiful in the future, and here it is.
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 10:58:30 PM EDT
UUUHH...can I blame the Arkansaw/Arizona thing one the time of night?

Link Posted: 12/3/2004 11:08:08 PM EDT
As long as I can blame my typing on it also.....
Link Posted: 12/3/2004 11:10:13 PM EDT
I don't think you are crazy for buying the lead. I buy stuff all the time if it is a good deal and I know I will use it someday.

Too bad about the bullet your using, I hope it comes together

I have some 525 LBTs, but I think I'll stick to the 435 LBTs in the 500 L. My thought is the 435 shoots through anything that walks, so I couldn't justify the heavier bullet. The long range thing makes sense though for a heavier bullet.

I'm glad to hear you have had good luck with the surplus powder. I'm going to order some Monday I think.

Looks like there is a surplus aa1680, called wc680. I think I will get some of that too since it looks like it is usable in the Wulf. I wish the data I seen in one of the threads showed velocity. I'm getting 30 rds of AA 400gr hawk loaded ammo with my upper, so I guess I'll chronograph it to get some sort of baseline.
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 5:15:36 PM EDT




Steve are you going to try any of those 460 WFNGCs in your 'Wulf? I just ordered 100 440s from cast performance that i am going to try
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 6:28:54 PM EDT
Yes, I am going 30 miles south to pick up some Reloader 7, Friday, I will start out with 39 grains and let the chronograph tell me what to do. (not to mention a hundred other things)  My real goal is to keep moving up in weight and adjusting load until I get to the sweet spot that achieves the trade off at about 1050 fps that does not exceed the normal bolt thrust / impulse values that would create problems in the system. Good old Reloader 7 just might get me there.

I have written Alexander Arms several times with no reply. Theoretically the Beowulf Entry upper (16” 1:19 twist) will stabilize 650+ gr bullets but there is not enough boiler-room left for powder to generate enough horsepower.

The good folks up at Dry Creek Bullets are sending the DC 500-400-K to experiment with. Lynn Halstead makes some of the finest heavyweight 45 Colt bullets known to man(355 grain WFN that flies true), Maybe we can generate another excellent source of .50 fodder.

Last but not least, I have spent 8 plus hours on Dan's bullet design program over at Mountain Molds  ( www,mountainmolds.com ) and that is a fascinating and time consuming experience. It is worth the effort and educational to boot.

I will give the lowdown on the loads. BYW I posted some results of case length measurements of new Beowulf brass on Iceman's forum on “enlarged primer pockets”. Might be of interest.

Steve
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 6:36:57 PM EDT
While I realize you guys are working on the 50 Beowulf, I wanted to just add this little tidbit.  For the .458 SOCOM with 500 gr Hornady RN bullets, we use 26.3 gr Reloder 7 to achieve about 980 fps.  While the Beowulf case is a hair larger, and the solid lead 600 gr bullet perhaps about the same as the 500 gr RN, your suggested load of 39 gr seems WWWAAAAYYY high.  I use 44 gr Re7 under a 300 gr bullet ....

Also, from experience, we use 18 twist and the 600 gr 458 bullets are BARELY stable at 980 fps with that combination.  If the Beowulf does indeed use the 19 twist, you will be on the edge of stability.  You have in your favor that the 600 gr .500 bullet is shorter than the 600 gr .458 bullet

Good luck and be safe.
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 7:02:22 PM EDT
Hi Marty, thanks for the info. I seen a 458 upper for sale and have been scratching my head to figure out how to buy it without creating any significant financial stress.
The load Steve was referring to I believe is with the 460 WFNGC that he spoke of a couple of replies back on this thread. Does that still seem excessive?

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 7:04:18 PM EDT
Steve, I'm going to try wc680, supposed to be similar to AA1680, with those 440s. I'll let you know how it works out.

Aaron
Link Posted: 12/8/2004 9:28:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By smdavis1020:
Yes, I am going 30 miles south to pick up some Reloader 7, Friday, I will start out with 39 grains and let the chronograph tell me what to do. (not to mention a hundred other things)  My real goal is to keep moving up in weight and adjusting load until I get to the sweet spot that achieves the trade off at about 1050 fps that does not exceed the normal bolt thrust / impulse values that would create problems in the system. Good old Reloader 7 just might get me there.

I have written Alexander Arms several times with no reply. Theoretically the Beowulf Entry upper (16” 1:19 twist) will stabilize 650+ gr bullets but there is not enough boiler-room left for powder to generate enough horsepower.

The good folks up at Dry Creek Bullets are sending the DC 500-400-K to experiment with. Lynn Halstead makes some of the finest heavyweight 45 Colt bullets known to man(355 grain WFN that flies true), Maybe we can generate another excellent source of .50 fodder.

Last but not least, I have spent 8 plus hours on Dan's bullet design program over at Mountain Molds  ( www,mountainmolds.com ) and that is a fascinating and time consuming experience. It is worth the effort and educational to boot.

I will give the lowdown on the loads. BYW I posted some results of case length measurements of new Beowulf brass on Iceman's forum on “enlarged primer pockets”. Might be of interest.

Steve



Try to call them....since that might be the best way to go!
Link Posted: 12/9/2004 8:06:57 AM EDT
MartyW,

Thanks for that input, I always appreciate a gut check, Hack was right, I was speaking of the 460 WFNGC's with 39 grains of Reloader 7. I am not sure where we will be at 600 because of a lack of data but the Powley indicators point to about 25 grains of Reloader 7. I can assure you that I will start well below that.

I also appreciate the SOCOM twist info. I will run it through my software for a sanity check. The 24" Beowulf barrel has a 1:24 twist pretty much dooming it to shorter bullets.

Hack,

I will look forward to your work with WC680, the more data points we have, the better for the mega-bore community.

Thanks
Steve
Link Posted: 1/3/2005 8:58:36 PM EDT
Steve, you ever try any of those lead bullets?

Aaron
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 2:37:23 AM EDT
I recently purchased a Beowulf .50. Needless to say it is expensive as hell to shoot at 1.00 per round.
For Yule I got a few reloading tools and have started rolling my own.'
I have run into a problem. I am unable to locate a Lee powder bushing chart showing the hodgdon lil'gun values. can anyone help?
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:58:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EX11B:
I recently purchased a Beowulf .50. Needless to say it is expensive as hell to shoot at 1.00 per round.
For Yule I got a few reloading tools and have started rolling my own.'
I have run into a problem. I am unable to locate a Lee powder bushing chart showing the hodgdon lil'gun values. can anyone help?



You'll need to get the double disk kit from Lee. The simplest way is to see what size dipper is with the die set and match it to the disk set. Failing that, you can drill out the cavities in the disk a little at a time until you get close to your desired powder charge.

Having said all that, the most efficient way is to use a Dillon powder measure with a .50AE charging die. That way, you have the ability to use virtually any charge weight of any powder, without the hassle of changing disks.
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