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Page AR-15 » AR Discussions
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 4/19/2007 12:11:52 PM EDT
If the "best/ideal," i.e. most functional, system of a DI AR is the original design of a 20" barrel, rifle length gas system, M16 BC and standard rifle buffer (5.2 oz IIRC), then why would it be problem to run an up to 5.2oz buffer in any gas system shorter than rifle length?

There have been many threads about what buffers in middys, carbines, shorties, etc...and in these threads, it is recommended that one uses standard carbine or H buffer in middys, at least H in carbines, and H up to 9mm or MGI RRB in shorties.  

Now, if the gas port pressure is higher in shorter than rifle length gas systems (it is) why would it not be recommended to use a buffer that is as close to rifle buffer weight as possible period, regardless of gas system or dwell time (barrel length post gas port)?

In other words, how would function be inhibited in a middy for example, if one was to use a 9mm buffer?  I know there some who do this and it works, but most say it causes short stroking; how can this be if the gas impulse to the carrier is higher due to the shorter gas system when compared to a rifle gas system?

I remember during the “ban” days when everyone was using rifle length stocks with of course rifle weight buffers, and there were no problems running a middy with one. So why would some say DO NOT use a H2 buffer b/c it will induce a short stroke when the rifle weight buffer is heavier than the H2?

I hope I am communicating my point of confusion adequately.


ETA:  I am only using a middy as an example, but it is the concept I am looking to have answered.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:13:04 PM EDT
[#1]
My guess would be a lack of standardisation of the gas port size on middies.  Use too heavy of a buffer with a smaller gas port and you will get short strokes.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:44:29 AM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
My guess would be a lack of standardisation of the gas port size on middies.  Use too heavy of a buffer with a smaller gas port and you will get short strokes.


Understood if the gas port is too small, that would be applicable to any gas system, and is indicative to poor engineering.  But what about the concept of the question in general?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:31:37 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Now, if the gas port pressure is higher in shorter than rifle length gas systems (it is) why would it not be recommended to use a buffer that is as close to rifle buffer weight as possible period, regardless of gas system or dwell time (barrel length post gas port)?


It's funny you say this.  I've found that here on ARFCOM it's ENCOURAGED that you run a heavier buffer.  We talk about gas pressures and dwell times at nauseam here.

The "trick" if I may, has always been to get a Carbine to run as nice as the good ole standard 20" A2 Rifle.

That's why we have all these H buffers, the introduction of the Middy, LMT Enhanced carrier, MGI Rate-Reducing and Endine buffers, not to mention Crane O Rings, D-Fenders, enhanced Bolts, the Black Bumber.  And people wonder why their build with a friggin' 0.093" gas port is short stroking.

So Chewie, why all the posts today about this stuff?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 8:41:26 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:12:37 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
Increase the gas system pressure, the action will cycle faster and harder, if you are using the same buffer and carrier mass.

Increasing the buffer and carrier mass, will decrease the cyclic rate.

So, if you've bumped-up the gas pressure, it would be advised to adjust the buffer/carrier masses to suit the change, so that the gun cycles in its normal range.
Or else, find some way to re-meter the gas system.


Right, I understand this, which is why I am asking (I guess in a wierd way) why even bother with standard Car, H, H2, etc, and just get a carbine length buffer that is the same wieght as the rifle length (5.2oz) regardless of gas system?

Why was the Car buffer so light from the get-go?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:15:24 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

So Chewie, why all the posts today about this stuff?


what do you mean?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:18:30 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Increase the gas system pressure, the action will cycle faster and harder, if you are using the same buffer and carrier mass.

Increasing the buffer and carrier mass, will decrease the cyclic rate.

So, if you've bumped-up the gas pressure, it would be advised to adjust the buffer/carrier masses to suit the change, so that the gun cycles in its normal range.
Or else, find some way to re-meter the gas system.


Right, I understand this, which is why I am asking (I guess in a wierd way) why even bother with standard Car, H, H2, etc, and just get a carbine length buffer that is the same wieght as the file length regardless of gas system?

Why was the Car buffer so light from the get-go?


Less reciprocating weight = higher rate of fire.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:27:39 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Why was the Car buffer so light from the get-go?


Less reciprocating weight = higher rate of fire.


So you are saying it was a goal of the Carbine to have higher rate of fire?  What about the malfunction potential being increased exponentially when compared to a rifle system???
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 1:44:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:09:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Twl, why was the 3oz carbine buffer engineered from the get-go?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:31:00 PM EDT
[#11]
An LMT Enhanced Carrier works nicely for 14.5 and 16 inch carbine gas systems. No need to mess with buffers.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:15:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Page AR-15 » AR Discussions
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