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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/11/2005 5:43:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 5:46:04 AM EDT by jackal2001]
OK sometimes I see ammo in brown boxes that are packed 10 rounds on stripper clips. The guy says they are new manufacture from Winchester 2005 stamped.

Now my question is if it is green tip it should be M855 but would it be a higher quality or GRADE A ammo compared to something like XM193 which is GRADE B ammo?
I guess what I am asking is this strait grade A military ammo, and does it differ from the White Box Ammo that is made by Winchester?
Thanks
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:47:01 AM EDT
It's just USGI ammo. The non training ammo is issued in bandoleers with 7 cardboard boxes, each of the 7 boxes contains 30 rounds on 10 rnd stripper clips.

There is also "for training use only ammo" which doesn't come in bandoleers, but normally in cardboard boxes in shrink rap, occasional it is on stripper clips.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:54:39 AM EDT
OK so if the 30 round boxes of stipper clip ammo is USGI, does it differ any in quality than the white box m855 (winchester)?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:16:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 7:18:13 AM EDT by P-245]
The commercial market cannot get "GRADE A" ammo - that's what the government purchases on contract from Lake City, Winchester, etc. All we can get is the "Grade B" and -PD (bulk) stuff which are the QC rejects. They are probably "new manufacturer" as compared to reloaded ammunition (like Black Hills and GA Arms Canned Heat).
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:43:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 7:46:05 AM EDT by jackal2001]
Now I am getting confused.
1. Winchester Brown Box 10rnd stripper clips (30 rounds to a box) green tip M855 5.56 > grade A or B

2. Winchester White Box green tip M855 5.56, 20rnd box > grade A or B
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:40:42 AM EDT
Now I'm confused too. How do they determine what ammo is "training ammo"? Is it a reject lot from the regular ammo production or is it made to be training ammo with different specs?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:00:31 AM EDT
Too fill some of the requirements for ammo sine the GWOT, the military now buys FTO ammo. Which is not required to meet all the specs, water proofness being a big one. It also doesn't come package in the same dunnage, so its may not be as shippable as service ammo. Because of the less stringent standards and low amounts of packing material its cheaper.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:45:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 6:28:43 PM EDT by tangeant]
Never seen M193-M855 ammo labeled " training ammo " in anyway . The different packaging has different NSN's. So if there is "different " M855 in the system the only way to tell it apart is by NSN and Lot #. I'am not the ammo account custodian but I did stay in a Holiday in Express last night .

This is some of the repacked LC 94 M 855 repacked or whatever ammo we sometimes get for our Marksmanship ammo account. Sometimes in baggies sometimes in reused blanks boxes. It has a diff NSN than M855 that comes in Bandos & strippers NSN 1305-01-155-5459.

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:03:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 6:16:59 PM EDT by STLRN]

SUBJ/NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AMMO INFO NOTICE 078-04. REPALLETIZATION OF COMMERCIALLY PACKAGED SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION
/(1305-AA33,AA48,AA49)//

REF/A/DOC/NAVSUP P-801/01APR2004//
AMPN/TW024-AA-ORD-010 1 APRIL 2004//
THIS AIN PROVIDES GUIDANCE FOR THE MOVEMENT, STORAGE,AND REPACKAGING OF COMMERCIALLY PACKAGED 5.56MM AND 9MM CARTRIDGES AT ASP'S AND USERS LOCATIONS.

(A) COMMERCIAL PACKS CONSIST OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION PACKED IN FIBERBOARD BOXES AND PALLETIZED WITH COMMERCIAL STRETCH WRAP. THE APPLICABLE DODIC'S ARE AA33 (M855 5.56MM 10 RD CLIP OR LOOSE 1800 ROUNDS PER PACK), AA48 (LEAD FREE "GREEN" VERSION OF THE AA33), AND AA49 (M882, 9MM 50 RD CARTON/500 ROUNDS PER PACK).

(B) COMMERCIALLY PACKAGED SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION IS INTENDED FOR CONUS RANGE FIRE (QUALIFICATION)TRAINING ONLY. IT IS NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED FOR THE RIGORS OF TACTICAL USE OR TRAINING. AA33, AA48 AND AA49 ARE NOT AUTHORIZED FOR OCONUS SHIPMENT OR OCONUS TRAINING UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY MARCORPSYSCOM. AA33 AND AA48 HAVE BEEN ISSUED FOR TACTICAL TRAINING IN CONUS DUE TO SHORTAGE OF A059. THE FOLLOWING PROVIDES GUIDANCE FOR UNITS THAT MUST USE AA33 OR AA48 FOR RANGE QUALIFICATION OR TACTICAL TRAINING WHEN IN SHORT SUPPLYOF A059. SUBJECT PACK IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO DAMAGE IF EXPOSED TO WATER-- PARTICULARLY AFTER OPENING. DO NOT STORE THE FIBERBOARD PACK IN AN UNCOVERED AREA WHERE IT CAN BE EXPOSED TO RAIN OR LEAVE IT IN STANDING WATER. THE PLASTIC SHRINK-WRAP COVERING OF THE OUTER BOX OFFERS A MODERATE LEVEL OF WATER PROTECTION BUT DOES NOT PROTECT AGAINST HIGH LEVELS OR EXTENDED PERIODS OF RAIN. THE INNER BOX DOES NOT HAVE A PLASTIC COVERING AND OFFERS NO PROTECTION AGAINST WATER EXPOSURE. COVER BOXES WITH A TARP AT THE FIRING RANGE IF OVERHEAD SHELTER IS NOT AVAILABLE. SUBJECT PACKS ARE NOT EASY TO RESEAL AFTER OPENING. DO NOT OPEN BOXES UNNECESSARILY OR PREMATURELY. THIS WILL MINIMIZE AMMUNITION COUNTS REQUIRED FOR RETURNED OPEN BOXES AND PREVENT POSSIBLE RAIN DAMAGE. MCO 8020.10, PARAGRAPH 5.C.(6) STATES: "IN THE FIELD/ON THE FIRING RANGE, AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE REMOVED FROM ITS PACKING CONTAINERS UNTIL REQUIRED FOR USE. AMMUNITION SHALL BE HANDLED IN SUCH A MANNER AS TO PRECLUDE ASSIGNMENT TO AN UNSERVICEABLE CATEGORY (E.G., LOSS OF LOT NUMBER IDENTIFICATION), SHOULD IT BECOME NECESSARY TO TERMINATE THE EXERCISE AND RETURN THE AMMUNITION TO STORAGE." SEE PARAGRAPH 6 FOR LIGHT BOX INSTRUCTIONS.



According to web log that NSN and DODIC are for M193 not M855

009263970 Nomenclature CTG 5.56MM M193 1640B DODAC/SUMC A066 / LIN D34958


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:42:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 5:02:10 AM EDT by P-245]

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Too fill some of the requirements for ammo sine the GWOT, the military now buys FTO ammo. Which is not required to meet all the specs, water proofness being a big one. It also doesn't come package in the same dunnage, so its may not be as shippable as service ammo. Because of the less stringent standards and low amounts of packing material its cheaper.


This is wrong. All small caliber ammunition procured by the military is bought to MILSPEC requirements, whether procured from Lake City or other commercial manufacturers. The military has NOT relaxed the MILSPEC requirement. Small arms ammo packed in commercial packaging (e.g., DODIC AA33/M855) is still MILSPEC ammo.

"COMMERCIALLY PACKAGED SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION IS INTENDED FOR CONUS RANGE FIRE (QUALIFICATION)TRAINING ONLY. IT IS NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED FOR THE RIGORS OF TACTICAL USE OR TRAINING." The ammo is the same - the difference is the packaging (commercial vs metal ammo boxes in wire-bound wooden crates).

STLRN - since you made the claim, prove it. Show us the contract provision(s) (the legal documentation) relaxing the MILSPEC requirements.

Someone repacked the ammo in that picture above and mis-marked it. DODIC A066 is plain tip, M193 ammo - the picture shows green tip, M855 ammo.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:01:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By P-245:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Too fill some of the requirements for ammo sine the GWOT, the military now buys FTO ammo. Which is not required to meet all the specs, water proofness being a big one. It also doesn't come package in the same dunnage, so its may not be as shippable as service ammo. Because of the less stringent standards and low amounts of packing material its cheaper.


This is wrong. All small caliber ammunition procured by the military is bought to MILSPEC requirements, whether procured from Lake City or other commercial manufacturers. The military has NOT relaxed the MILSPEC requirement. Small arms ammo packed in commercial packaging (e.g., DODIC AA33/M855) is still MILSPEC ammo.

"COMMERCIALLY PACKAGED SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION IS INTENDED FOR CONUS RANGE FIRE (QUALIFICATION)TRAINING ONLY. IT IS NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED FOR THE RIGORS OF TACTICAL USE OR TRAINING." The ammo is the same - the difference is the packaging (commercial vs metal ammo boxes in wire-bound wooden crates).

STLRN - since you made the claim, prove it. Show us the contract provision(s) (the legal documentation) relaxing the MILSPEC requirements.

Someone repacked the ammo in that picture above and mis-marked it. DODIC A066 is plain tip, M193 ammo - the picture shows green tip, M855 ammo.



Honestly, it may very well be the exact same M855 as we get when we get A059 ammo, however as far as the military is concerned it is not allowed for OCONUS combat oror even training applications, because of as you can read in the message it has less abilities to stand the rigors of the environment that may occur outside of the US. Could be the military is being overly cautious or it could be that it’s not to the same spec, I don’t know all I know is I can only use it in the US for training.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:05:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 7:10:31 AM EDT by UnusSupra1]
This is what is used out at Stone Bay (Camp Lejeune rifle range).
Not sure how long they have been getting it packed like this, but I know the had it back in 2001.
I know it sure cuts down on dunnage.




picture borrowed from bigbores sale of M855 ammo
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:30:30 AM EDT
STLRN-

The ammo is exactly the same. We do not ship commercially packed ammunition overseas -- only that in the mil packing (metal ammo cans in wooden wire-bound crates). The commercial packaging was not designed to withstand overseas/in-theater handling. Commercial packaging is much, much cheaper than mil packaging but not as tough, especially if repacking the ammunition (i.e., the subject of the notice - "Repalletization of Commercially Packaged Small Caliber Ammunition"). However, the commercial packs are great for range/qual use.

Once ammunition is broken out, it is imperative to minimize water/rain damage, even if has a moisture sealant. ASP folks hate dealing with opened ammo.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:00:27 AM EDT
P245

Okay, all I know is I cannot draw the ammo for anything other than training.

I am not a 2311 (ammo tech) and never have even played on TV, however from the ones I have work for me before have always told me their biggest problem with “light cases/boxes” of ammo was not long term preservation or storage, but accountability especially when it comes to “wooden rounds” such as ball ammo. If it were a light case than it has to be inventoried, which can mean counting thousands of items when it comes to small arms ammo. Now with some explosives and artillery propellants which are hydroscopic, that was another issue since open containers could cause a lessening in effects of the munition.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:13:36 AM EDT
I think they are just taking the most cautious approach.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:20:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:
This is what is used out at Stone Bay (Camp Lejeune rifle range).
Not sure how long they have been getting it packed like this, but I know the had it back in 2001.
I know it sure cuts down on dunnage.

www.adcofirearms.com/sale/m855.jpg


picture borrowed from bigbores sale of M855 ammo

The Army gave an award to whichever loading plant it was that came up with the all-cardboard package exactly because it cuts down on dunnage, weight, and expense. (I saw a PR release on it several years ago.) That's because some quantity of the overall production of M855 is intended for CONUS, non-combat usage, so it doesn't need to be packed in steel boxes, wooden crates, etc.; it's just not going to go through what combat-destined ammo might have to.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:22:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 4:32:41 PM EDT by Cacique500]
Damn that's some purty ammo... got the link to the sale?

Nevermind...found it. Purty but DAMN expensive...

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:13:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cacique500:
Damn that's some purty ammo... got the link to the sale?

Nevermind...found it. Purty but DAMN expensive...


I'd still like to take a look at it. Where did you find the link?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:26:15 PM EDT

I'd still like to take a look at it. Where did you find the link?


ADCO Firearms - bigbore
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:43:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 6:45:57 PM EDT by brillo]
New Ammunition Packaging - 1998

" . . . Packaging alone accounts for approximately 24 percent of the price of the 5.56-millimeter 10-round clip."

Link Posted: 9/20/2005 7:15:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brillo:
New Ammunition Packaging - 1998

" . . . Packaging alone accounts for approximately 24 percent of the price of the 5.56-millimeter 10-round clip."

www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JulAug98/298p1.JPG


That's IT! That's the story I read obviously quite a while back.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 7:39:20 AM EDT

" . . . Packaging alone accounts for approximately 24 percent of the price of the 5.56-millimeter 10-round clip."


So if we show up at the factory with a 5 gallon paint bucket, we can save 24%? Oh yeah...there's the thing about getting shot for trespassing. Bad idea.
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