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Posted: 8/13/2005 7:36:56 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 8/13/2005 7:41:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Is that Duct tape remains that I see on there? Do you get a roll of that if you buy one of those mounts?
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Posted: 8/13/2005 7:51:39 AM EDT
[#3]
OH SNAP!!
  mcgrubbs, your bulldog is the shit! My wife and I like him a lot. |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 7:57:08 AM EDT
[#4]
...as a result of???????
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Posted: 8/13/2005 11:08:27 AM EDT
[#5]
From the link:
There is a great amount of discussion on the Internet regarding the quality of certain mounts, and what is sufficient for use on a fighting gun. The fact of the matter is that many, if not most, manufacturers of gear do not make anything themselves, but farm out to various subcontractors. This in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as a strict QC procedure is in place. There are several companies that sub out quite a bit of their manufacturing without perceptible degradation in quality, but they are in the minority. In this case, an end user currently forward deployed had a mount fail on him in the field. While using the throw lever on this mount, it snapped in two at the shaft. He was able to retain the lever, but the bottom half (consisting of the cam) was left somewhere in the sand. The harsh reality is that anything man made can and will fail, especially when produced in volume. All we can attempt to do is select the best design and quality of materials in order to minimize the chance of failure. That is why I tend to shy away from MIM throw levers. Lest we get into another MIM war, I believe there is a place for Metal Injection Molded parts, especially if done correctly. But in the case of a critical part that will potentially bear a load, I would choose a well machined, bar stock part. 
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Posted: 8/13/2005 11:09:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Use in combat I would guess. C4 |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 11:20:48 AM EDT
[#7]
Hey thanks. We went this morning for pics with the football team. He is the mascot. Fetches the kicking tee off the field at our games. Back on topic: Part of what bothers me about that mount going TU is that it is obviously quite new. It has little to no wear from use. |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 12:58:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Yeah, I'd like to know myself. Anything abused enough can break. Was this run over by an M1A1 or did it break in normal use? Doesn't really matter though, ARMS gear has proven itself in combat for many years and on my own rifles in less abusive use as well. |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 1:29:09 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't think it was run over by a tank. I don't disagree that SOME ARMS products have proven themselves in combat. This also shows that MIM levers are not the ideal choice (as this is about 5th lever I have known to break and hear reports that the number is MUCH higher). C4 |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 2:46:14 PM EDT
[#10]
One would have to think that the broken mount pictured hasn't seen much of any abuse, simply by looking at the pic.
I would think an abused mount would be much more worn looking. |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 5:28:20 PM EDT
[#11]
My guess is that the lever took a hit in the verticle plane, opposite it's designed operating swing (and probably while the lever was open). |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 5:47:59 PM EDT
[#12]
It's been almost 3 years since I outlawed the use of ARMS products on any of our shooting team’s guns. I came to that decision after 4 different incidents where ARMS products FAILED at major matches and my guys were not able to finish the course of fire. We have since switched to LaRue and have gone over a year with literally tens of thousands of rounds with ZERO problems.
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Posted: 8/13/2005 6:00:04 PM EDT
[#13]
That was my thought as well. C4 |
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Posted: 8/13/2005 6:20:11 PM EDT
[#14]
It could have been a M1A2 or M1A2 SEP. |
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Posted: 8/14/2005 1:56:55 PM EDT
[#15]
" All you guys/gals with busted ARMS levers need to dig 'em up out of your reloading bench drawers and post us some pics...so ARMS can see where to make needed improvements. Who knows, ARMS might find that's it's better to machine them out of a solid. But they need data to make a decision."
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Posted: 8/14/2005 6:39:52 PM EDT
[#16]
A buddy of mine had a set of ARMS QR rings on his M1A and they broke from the recoil the first time he took the rifle out...I wish we took a photo of the rings but if you don't believe me, you can as Jason at JTAC who very graciously took them back and sent my friend a different brand of rings...
After breaking a few ARMS products myself I've decided to stay away from CAST ("MIM") ARMS products. Most recently, my #22M68 stripped out while I was backing out a screw ...very disappointed. I do give them props for replacement of the broken products but the hassle of having to deal with it just isn't worth it. Plus the fact that seeing these things break doesn't exactly inspire confidence. AIRSOFT products are suppose to break, not "real gun" products...  Now I understand that product failures happen but you don't have to be a product designer to see weaknesses in products...For as much money as ARMS charges for their products, it should be FORGED or at the VERY LEAST, billet. No excuse other than to fatten their margins... I have been considering a set of LaRue QR rings to my existing ARMS stuff but I really dislike the sideways orientation of the screws...I wish they would make a more standard top screw style ring...it's easier to mount scopes with that type of setup IMO. |
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Posted: 8/14/2005 6:57:03 PM EDT
[#17]
The screws on the #22M68 stripping out is very common problem. The LT scope rings are a better design than the "standard" type you are familiar with. Installation is a piece of cake IMHO. C4 |
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Posted: 8/14/2005 7:33:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Broken gear is no fun for anyone. ARMS will stand by their stuff though. Im sure they will replace it.
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Posted: 8/14/2005 7:53:20 PM EDT
[#19]
KPD-Kabul = Karzai Protective Detail
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Posted: 8/14/2005 11:04:58 PM EDT
[#20]
That's all well and good for you guys with safe-queens...but when gear goes "Tango Uniform" in the field, a replacment policy is little comfort. Surefire looks like thay have also droped the ARMS throw levers in favor of a simpler (and more rugged) thumb-knob araingment. |
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Posted: 8/14/2005 11:17:05 PM EDT
[#21]
It's not so much about them replacing it, it's about the product NOT breaking. Hell, even B-Square will replace broken products under warranty but I still wouldn't buy a B-Square product. ARMS products are priced as top tier items but IMO, they failed to perform as a top tier product... Until ARMS decides to give their customer their money's worth (i.e. stop using cheap cast metal), I think I'll give LaRue a try... |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 3:03:53 AM EDT
[#22]
BINGO! IF your a range queen then it is no big deal. If your half way around the world getting shot at, it IS a big deal!! C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:33:59 AM EDT
[#23]
Yeah, I know, thats what I told the guy with the CavArms gun they or I could not get to work in the last class I took... |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:51:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Oooooohhhhh........BURN! |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:01:30 AM EDT
[#25]
I dont own any ARMS stuff or fancy mounts of any kind for that matter but I'm perplexed here. It's been my impression that ARMS stuff was the bees knees and cats bum from what I see posted but it's obviously not.
What perplexes me is that this is the first I have ever heard of it and now all of a sudden there are plenty of guys now posting bad experiences with ARMS. Where were all you guys before? I would have liked to have heard this before. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:05:25 AM EDT
[#26]
I don't know how often you come to the optics forum, but this is a fairly common discussion. Some of the "standard" issues we see with the ARMS products are: Stripped screws Loose mounts on rails Broken Levers Military feedback (halfway down): www.snipercountry.com/hottips/RifleM21_M25.htm Blurb from the thread: Bravo - Contact the 82nd about the Dick Swan ARMS debacle before you take too much info there. I spent one week on the range with the 82 trying to get their weapons zeroed. The scopes were falling off the weapon due to the mounts breaking. 10th Group and Tom Kapp was having the same problem after only 5 to 10 rounds. That is why the ARMS mount was never used. We had the same problem with the mounts we put on the M21s we were upgrading. C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:10:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Its not a burn, its just the truth. Crap happens, happens all the time. You'll see it with gear that sucks, you'll hear it with gear thats great. The frequency with which you see it can say a lot about if the gear sucks or is great, but then you also have to take into consideration how widespread the gear is. ARMS stuff is pretty widespread, and its disapointing to hear and see things like this, especially when you consider from where the mount was just returned.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:21:54 AM EDT
[#28]
My question on the CAV upper would be the following: Was it properly maintained (cleaned)? Did the user modify it (aftermarket trigger, etc)? C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 6:51:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Its off topic, but new-argirl was there and the womans boyfriend (who was also there) posts here from time to time as well. I dont think it should be an issue in this thread, but they, especially him, might be able to shed more light on what happened. It was, however, a standard trigger, perfectly clean. Gun had problems within the first mag of the class. Problems were all with feeding and extracting as I recall. Tried their mags their ammo, tried my mags with my ammo. Tried their ammo in my mags, tried my ammo in their mags, nothing helped. Gave the person one of my guns to finish the class. All mags with all ammo ran fine in my gun.
My gun, coincidentally, with a JP trigger and ARMS gear on the rifle, ran smooth for the rest of that class (and at least 6 others I can remember). Kind of indicative of my point. Im sure the CavArms guys and many more dont have issues with their guns working right for them. If they did, I suspect they would probably fix it. But crap happens and that woman was pretty happy to be able to finish the class with my gun with the ARMS gear on it. The opposite is also true, with all the guns using ARMS gear around the world, from soldiers and contractors, to gamers, to guys like me, lots of people are probably pretty satisfied with their ARMS stuff. But crap happens and Im sure the guy with that broken lever would have loved to have had a plain jane TA51 mount at about that time. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 7:15:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Sounds like an extraction issue with the bolt. A set of new springs might handled it. This is not a piece of gear that CAV makes. C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 7:36:45 AM EDT
[#31]
tag
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:00:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Well, thats sort of passing the buck, and believe me, while I do think there is some validity to what you are trying to say, It's not really an excuse. Heck, according to that logic, ARMS doesnt really make their throw levers either now do they
 . You can use the fact that the specific company doesnt manufacture the specific part that someone has a problem with. Such and such company didnt manufacture the bolt that cracked in their rifle, such and such company didnt machine such and such part that failed on this specific item...But the point is they put their name on it and its theirs if they actually manufacture it or not. Im not 100% sure what the problem with the gun was, but even if it was a part Cav did not manufacture, it doesnt matter. They may not have manufactured every or even most of it, but their name is on the gun, it was sold as a CavRifle, and so it is theirs. ARMS may not have manufactured the throw lever that failed, but whose name is on it? Who should bear the brunt of the blame? Whatever company they chose to make their levers? Or ARMS? Even if it is whatever X,Y,Z company who made that defective lever, or... (for the sake of argument) company Cav got the defective extractor and/or spring from, consumers should not allow the company to blame their suppliers for poor quality. ARMS, for example, may be able to blame that company, but the guy with the broken lever should not have to. Im not looking to make excuses for anyone, broken gear sucks. And it is especially disapointing to hear it when things you believe to be quality fails. But crap happens and all we can hope for is the company to make it right by the customer and, even better, take preventative measures to see that as few failures as can be controlled occur in the future. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:35:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Well, that is one reason we don't sell rifles to the military or make mounts Please shoot me an e-mail/IM about your friend with the rifle. I'm guessing that since it didn't come back to use for service, it was most likely not a gun we built, but a parts gun (and from what you discribed, the lower was not the point of fault). I guess we'll see more picturtes of you hanging out with the good folks from ARMS at the next SHOT Show 
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:41:14 AM EDT
[#34]
That is VERY true. They don't make ANYTHING themselves. They do however contract out to another company to make them. If the issue with your friends weapon was a spring, CAV Arms never contracted out a company to make them. They simply bought them from a manufacturer (not making them their's). C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:43:02 AM EDT
[#35]
He actually works for Trijicon!  C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 9:05:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Nag, the link I posted from the 82nd was in 2000. This problem has been around a LONG time. They (ARMS) knew about it then and didn't fix it. C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 9:28:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Are you certain that this was a factory complete CAV-15 rifle?...the only way for us to know is to check the serial number in our log book. Do you have any idea how many "complete factory rifles" dealers around the country sell that left our shop as nothing more than a stripped lower? The vast majority of the receivers we sell are sold as stripped lowers...we have no idea what parts people use on them after that. People returning rifles they say are "complete factory guns" but really are not are a common problem. You're introducing a Red Herring into this argument to draw attention away from the real issue...the real issue is there is a problem with ARMS products, that is becoming increasingly well known, and they aren't doing anything to fix it. Nor are there any representatives from ARMS actively posting and addressing the concerns of consumers on this forum...unless you count the company's sycophantic followers. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:19:13 AM EDT
[#38]
Put me in that same boat, Neil. I've also known many ARMS users that are COMPLETELY satisfied. Many of them are military, LE or competition shooters. But you're missing the point, ARMS isn't what we're pimping this week. That's what this is all about, pure and simple. I took a good long break from this site because it gets REALLY old coming from the same small group of people, many of whom have a financial stake in this. Sinistral, you're not one of the group I'm referring to. As it stands now, My ARMS gear is going strong... |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:32:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Not sure who or whom you are talking about, but this info (on the broken ARMS mount) was started on another forum by a WELL respected shooter (member of 10-8 consulting). Monty posted the info here on here to. Both of these people have ZERO financial gain from anything to do with this thread. If you THINK I am the one "pimping gear" then I would like to remind you that I have a full inventory of ARMS products in stock! As I stated in another post in this thread, I have NO DOUBT that there are a lot of happy ARMS customers. There also a lot of unhappy ones with broken levers and or loose mounts: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=246799 C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 12:10:46 PM EDT
[#40]
I know, I know, I work for ARMS, or wait, is it Trijicon, oh no, wait, it was Surefire... whatever. I wonder why it is Im sitting at a local gun shop working about 60 hours a week. Take a look at the thread and see if I sound like someone who works for them, or if I even sound like someone they would be happy with if they read the thread. Im the one saying how disapointing this is and that it is ARMS who should not only take responsibility for the mount (which I believe they will) but hope they take steps in the future to help prevent this type of thing from happening again. I have only just recently learned what a MIM part is, and have less and less faith in MIM as something to be trusted on a critical/moving part.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 3:26:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Grant, that's EXACTLY what I think. I'm beginning to wonder if you owe Mark LaRue money or something, lol. I can't figure out why you continually disrupt this forum when you could sit back and have guys like me (former customer) ordering stuff from you. It just doesn't add up. I'll let you reply now, because I ABSOLUTELY KNOW that you have to have the last word. That's common with insecure people. I think I'll take a break again from the optics forum, nothing has changed. Ed is aware of the problems though... |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 4:09:17 PM EDT
[#42]
I would love to know what you are talking about. There is ZERO pimping of gear going on in this thread. I guess you can see whatever you want to see, but it just isn't there. You also seemed to be concerned about me losing business because of my honest posts. I got news for ya, business couldn't be better! So I must be doing something right. I also find it interesting that you don't want dealers to post (just sit back and collect money). Dealers SHOULD be some of the most knowledgeable members on this board. They attend trade shows, deal directly with the manufacturer and have a ton experiece with gear. They should also complete training classes so they can better understand the needs and requirements of their LE/Military customers. I do all of these things and try to share as much of it as possible. So I am puzzled as to why you think it is a bad thing. For the record, ARMS owned the mount market for many years IMHO. A new company comes in and disrupts that. For whatever reason when someone points out an issue with an ARMS mount, the die hard ARMS owners get all bent out of shape and attack the messenger.  What they SHOULD be doing is thanking them for bringing the issue to light so they can take action or at least be aware of said issue. As far as getting the last word in, I will ALWAYS respond when someone makes an untruthful comment about me or my company (which you have). Don't want me to get the last word in? Don't make a false statement. It is funny to me that you think I am the one that is disrupting this thread. I have posted facts and made ZERO personal attacks. You are the one that has made this thread ugly. I have also talked to EdSr and Juan about the amount of trolls on ARFCOM. C4 |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:18:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Well Grant, I guess we just agree to disagree. You go on being Mark's personal bitch, I'll go on enjoying my ARMS gear. Bottom line is this, I'd rather buy gear made by a guy named Dick then from a guy that is a Dick.
 Run Grant, Run! Tell a mod ASAP! ETA, that's my last wasted keystroke on the loadmaster turned weapons expert...  |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:29:41 PM EDT
[#44]
ipsc, you know the rules, you know you arent following them.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:29:58 PM EDT
[#45]
No where in this thread have I mentioned LT. As I said before, you see what you want to see (cannot help you). If you would like to live in ignorance that is your choice. I look forward to the day that your ARMS mount stretch out (and they will) and you have replace them with an adjustable lever. I would also like to see you post this BS on the 10-8 forums. Interesting how they don't seem to have the same troll problems that we do here...... C4 P.S. I am not sure what a loadmaster is (other than a USAF cargo loader) and how it pertains to this thread, but whatever works for ya!
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Posted: 8/15/2005 5:30:11 PM EDT
[#46]
do you even have to ask?
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