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Posted: 5/20/2005 10:38:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:17:53 PM EDT by gbf]
I just got my RRA upper back from them because of a issue with it constantly misfiring rounds. When using another bolt assembly it would shoot fine. So yesterday I got it back and shot just 10 rounds through it to see if it was working. It shot all 10 rounds fine with no misfires(something it wouldn't do before). So today I took it out again to do some more shooting. I shot about 65 - 70 rounds then it just locked up half way through a 30 round magazine.

If I try to pull back on the charging handle it goes back about 1/4 - 1/2 inch, and just stops. I'm not sure if it ejected the last casing or not. Either way, anyone have any ideas on how to further troubleshoot this? I can post pictures if needed.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 12:05:28 PM EDT
Wow! I did the same thing with a new J&T Upper using Wolf ammo. It happened on the very first round in the mag. It had been shooting XM193 just fine prior to this. I tried to tap it out using a cleaning rod, which only resulted in getting the cleaining rod stuck in the casing in the barrel. It would not budge a bit.

I started trying to fix it myself by first removing the stock and buffer tube to get the upper and lower apart. Once I had the upper off the lower, I pulled and hammered like hell, but the bolt was frozen in place. I even ran a hot hair drier down the barrel hoping it would loosen it up. In despiration, I ended up sending the whole thing back to J&T and they were EXTEREMELY understanding. They removed the stuck case and rod for me under warranty and warned me about further use of Wolf Ammo.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 1:12:06 PM EDT
That kinda sucks seeing how I just got it back from RRA. I would hate to have to send it back, but thats kinda what I thought may have to happen.. I wasn't using Wolf ammo. I believe it was some cheaper Remington ammo, but I would have to check my magazine to be sure.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:08:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 3:07:28 PM EDT by gbf]
Well I got it open by turning into the Hulk, and pulling back on the charging handle. However the entire shell casing is lodged in the barrel. The I'm not sure if that round actually fired or not, but the primer has been discharged. The bolt itself looks ok, and I can't see any damage on any of the parts. What would cause something like that to happen?

The ammo I was shooting at the time was some Israeli military ammo I got from either sportsmans guide, or cheaper than dirt.

Also any ideas about getting that shell casing out of the barrel, and are there any safety issues I should consider before shooting it again if I can get it out?

Thanks.


Edit:

After searching around on google, it seems like most people recommend using a brass rod, or wooden dowel slightly smaller than the bore size, and hammering it out. So I guess I will try that.



Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:04:30 PM EDT
I would try shooting some Break Free down the barrel and inside of the barrel extension (where the locking lugs engage). Let it set for a minute two. Then take your cleaning rod and slide it down the barrel and then see if you can tap out the round. It may come right out once you lube it up and it has a chance to cool down.

Or, after you lube everything up, you could reinstall your charging handle, bolt carrier, and bolt and then push the bolt back into the extension to rengage the case head and then try to eject the round with the carging handle. Check to see if your extractor is OK. You may need to add one of the rubber o-rings under the extractor.

Do you have a 233 chamber? Were you using xm193PD ammo or one of the other PD bulk in box ammo? I have seen it discussed that the PD can be factory un-rejected ammo, kind of like factory seconds. Some have no problems, some have problems.

What did you lube your weapon up with? Did you use grease in the chamber? You should not use grease anywhere near the carrier, bolt, chamber, or barrel except for long term storage. The AR only seems to like Break Free and similar lubes.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:09:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:14:32 PM EDT by gbf]
Thanks for the suggestions so far..

Here is a link to some high res images..

http://66.199.228.108/jam/




What did you lube your weapon up with? Did you use grease in the chamber? You should not use grease anywhere near the carrier, bolt, chamber, or barrel except for long term storage. The AR only seems to like Break Free and similar lubes.



I only ran a oiled patch down the barrel when I got it back. the carrier, and bolt did not have any oil on it.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 4:27:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2005 4:50:49 AM EDT by Anthropy]
Here is your directory

Well, you are not going to be able to use the bolt to extract the round as the rim is ripped off, so your only option is to us a rod down the bore to try and get it out. Hopefully, the bullet is not stuck midway down the bore.

Take the rod you were going to use (brass or wood) and slide it down the bore and mark the rod. Pull out the rod and measure the length and compare it to the barrel's length. If it is shorter, then you have a bullet logged in the bore. I would think this not very likeley.

If it is apparent that there is nothing stuck in the bore, take your rod and then start tapping on the end of it to see if you can get the round out of the chamber.

You sould use Break Free for lube. It is cheap and you can get it at walmart. I one time tried a special moly rifle grease that the Swiss use on their automatic rifles. I lubed the chamber (lightly) and the bolt carrier up with it. The AR did not like it in the least as the propellent gassess merged with the grease to form a gooy, sticky gunk on the bolt carrier and chamber.

Then I just went back to Break Free for cleaning and lubing. The AR seems to really like the stuff. Spray on a tiny amount and then wipe off the excess. The spray form seems to foam into areas that are normally hard to get at.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:11:38 AM EDT
I saw that you are using A-Meric ammo. I did a search and found at least 2 sites that did not favor that ammo.

Here is a quote:

NOTE - The last ammunition on this list (A-Merc) shows very unusual results. It was the last in a test series but the chronograph was set-up exactly as for preceeding tests, although the light level had dropped. It cycled the gun, tho hard to believe! The odd thing is that the five shot string shows quite a small spread, making the readings seem viable, despite absurd low velocity. In time it is hoped to run a further test on this ammo' to see if it is truly as low as it seems from this test! Either way, it seems very poor quality indeed, with deformed (plated) bullets common.

Ammo Review

So, it seems that it may be your ammo causing the problem. If it is out of spec, then you are risking your life, rifle, or other parts of your anatomy. Do not use crap for ammo in an AR. From all that I have read, ARs are touchy with regards to ammo types.

Once you get the round out of the chamber, pay $$ and get some good ammo to test your rifle with. Also, find out if it has a .223 Rem chamber or 5.56 NATO chamber. .233 Rem chambers are smaller. Read the FAQ. After you have tested with quality ammo, and you still have a problem, then contact RRA and ask them for help.

As an example, I shoot Wolf ammo in my AK all the time, but I don't think I would ever shoot it in my AR. AKs are sloppy and loose, not intended to be tack drivers.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 8:55:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Anthropy:

Well, you are not going to be able to use the bolt to extract the round as the rim is ripped off, so your only option is to us a rod down the bore to try and get it out. Hopefully, the bullet is not stuck midway down the bore.



I used a cleaning rod to check this, and the bullet is not in the bore..



Originally Posted By Anthropy:

Once you get the round out of the chamber, pay $$ and get some good ammo to test your rifle with. Also, find out if it has a .223 Rem chamber or 5.56 NATO chamber. .233 Rem chambers are smaller. Read the FAQ. After you have tested with quality ammo, and you still have a problem, then contact RRA and ask them for help.

As an example, I shoot Wolf ammo in my AK all the time, but I don't think I would ever shoot it in my AR. AKs are sloppy and loose, not intended to be tack drivers.




The specs for it shows the chamber at "223/5.56 NATO". I'm going to try getting this thing out tomorrow when I have some more free time. I will also not be buying/shooting any more discount ammo after this situation.

Ill post back if/when I am able to get that out.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 9:51:04 AM EDT
I lubed the chamber (lightly)

Do NOT grease or oil the bore and chamber. If oiled for corrosion protection during storage, you should run a few dry patches through before shooting. Anything in the bore can damage the bore. At bullet velocities, oil is just like a solid.

In the chamber, the heat will bake oil and grease into a hard sticky varnish. Also, when a cartridge is fired, the case balloons swell out and grab the walls. That is good. Oil would be a problem as it would allow the cartridge to slide back and apply more pressure to the head of the bolt.

As the pressure drops after firing, the case shrinks back away from the walls, or are supposed to. Brass does this much easier than steel, which is why steel cases stick more often. Also, brass has a natural lubricity on steel, whereas steel on steel does not. I don't and won't use steel cased ammo.
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:09:06 AM EDT
THE STAMP ON THE CASE HEAD SAYS IT ALL FOR ME.the americ i've had experience with is the worst brass ever. some got mixed in my 45 acp cases, and got loaded.the brass was so bad that on recoil, the primers would fall out in the magazine!not just once, but on almost all the americ cases.I toss all americ and s&b brass in the trashcan....theres too much good brass laying around to use this stuff...
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 10:23:08 AM EDT
I got it out. Went to hardware store and got a solid brass rod, and one tap with a hammer it came out..

Needless to say I will never use this ammo again. The pictures will tell why..

66.199.228.108/after/

And by the way, I got about 200 rounds of this stuff if anyone wants to take it off my hands : )

Thanks for the help, and suggestions.

Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:48:06 PM EDT
Keep the round in plain view to remind yourself that saving a little $$ on ammo is not always a good thing. I hope that the .223 / 5.56 NATO means that it is a NATO chamber and you may want to email RRA to see what it means.

And I am glad that you were able to remove the round. I would spray down the chamber and barrel with Break Free and give the chambe a good scrubbing with a chamber brush. Then waste a roll of paper towels cleaning out the gook. It may take several applications to remove all the stuff.

As was posted previously, stay away from oil except for storage. I have used grease and oil on other rifles, but not the AR. If you stick with Break Free (CLP) you may notice easier cleaning after shooting as well.

Link Posted: 5/24/2005 2:15:22 AM EDT
Several observations here in no particular order:

1. The fact that the round was still in the case seems most unusual. (I know that it may have been pounded back when you knocked the case out.) This was looking like a matter of a blown primer with a ripped case rim, now I'm not so sure. How far down the barrel was the round? If it wasn't out of the case you may have caught some kind of reload where there wasn't a primer in the first place.

2. What is the silvery debris around the chamber in you after pictures?

3. In your original message you say it quit halfway through a 30 round magazine. How did it stop? Did it seem like a misfire / squib? Did you find the primer someplace in the works when you got it apart?

4. Anthrophy's previous ammo review with a low velocity quote was for a 9mm round not a .223 / 5.56. Granted its still very low at that not ridiculously low for a rifle round.

5. The RRA guns have a 5.56 Wylde chamber which is usually a bit more forgiving than a standard chamber. I have always had good luck with them.
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 8:19:20 AM EDT
who did the surgery on the receiver to install "M4" feed ramps?
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 9:31:08 AM EDT
Rock River does the dremmel feedramps at the factory.

I saw a thread recently with S&B ammo(I believe) that had no flash hole, the primer blew out but there was no where to go. Can't see in the pics, but consider it a possibility. I have heard a lot of bad about AMERC ammo.

Use plenty of lube (CLP is best) on your rifle. But, keep the chamber and barrel dry. Use CLP on them during storage and cleaning, but run a dry patch through the bore, and a large patch in the chamber before firing. Keep your chamber clean, it is necessary in all semi-auto guns, especially in AR's.
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 9:49:02 AM EDT
I didn't think the dremeled RRA feedramps were all that common. I guess it doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 5/25/2005 5:39:39 PM EDT
I you did not have a flash hole in the round, then I don't think the round would discharge. I could not see the kind of expansion to wedge the round in the chamber the way it did. Could have been a crap round that discharged partially or something. Seems like the round was pretty well jamed in the chamber for the extractor to have ripped of the rim like it did.

Pretty strange indeed. My bet is still a bad round maybe one that was seated to deep.

Can you pull the bullet and see if there is powder still in the case. That will tell you if it went off or not. And I don't know enough about .233 to know if a missing powder charge would be enough to wedge the bullet just far enough into the throat to make extraction difficult.
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