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Posted: 8/2/2005 11:08:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 11:24:21 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
What was their setup?

Pre-M4 14.5" barrel with A2 carry handle and sights?

What version Aimpoint were they using on the handle?

Were the lights SureFire 660's?

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:53:03 AM EDT
I watched this show for the umpteenth tiem recently and it appeared that they were using 11.5 inch Commando weapons with A2 sights/carry handles. This is probably exactly what they were using in the Mog' as this was before the M4 and before the proliferation of the flat top upper. Its also possible they were using Colt 653's. Delta weapons are expansive and they have access to practically any weapon, foriegn or domestic. In the movie though, it appeared they were using Colt Commandos with A2 uppers and probably the M68 red dot. I am sure someone will post a screen capture and we can ID the setup more precisely, but IIRC this is what they had in the movie.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:42:03 AM EDT

Delta weapons are expansive and they have access to practically any weapon, foriegn or domestic.


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:45:40 AM EDT
Commando carbines with Surefire classic series light and Aimpoint 1000.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:04:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 4:06:12 AM EDT by ThePrisoner72]

Originally Posted By glock23carry:


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



"Just what ya see pal"

LOL! Great scene from a great movie
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:09:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Commando carbines with Surefire classic series light and Aimpoint 1000.



Sounds about right....
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:20:08 AM EDT
Aimpoint 1000



Definately a different sight than was shown in the movie, but likely what was in actual use at the time.

SureFire Classic (model 660) Universal barrel mount weapon light



You can still find the SureFire 660 with no issues, but the Aimpoint 1000 may be a problem. It's been discontinued now for a while. So if anyone ever wanted to build an AR carbine "Mogadishu Delta" reproduction, they might have to improvise a bit with red dot sights.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:24:23 AM EDT
What I've ssen on the recievers of the Pre M4 from that era was stamped "M16A2 Carbine" Dunno the Colt model # though.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:28:19 AM EDT
I think in the film they used Comp XDs......???
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:29:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThePrisoner72:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



"Just what ya see pal"

LOL! Great scene from a great movie



Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:38:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Delta weapons are expansive and they have access to practically any weapon, foriegn or domestic.


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



Only issued for Beyond the atmosphere (Space) Missions!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:41:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 6:42:19 AM EDT by Coronado]
Ooops, been posted.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:13:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
This is probably exactly what they were using in the Mog' as this was before the M4 and before the proliferation of the flat top upper.....



I know popular belief says the M4 came out in 1994, however when I got to 3rd Rgr Bn in 1989 they were in use. Also remember carbines with 14.5 plain barrels with no m4 step and alum buttstocks. A few of the m4s had M203 attached, but most were issued to platoon leaders, forward observers, comm guys.

True we never saw a flat top upper. Never saw an aimpoint. Didn't have weapon mounted lights, but delta did. Night vision we had in 1989 was PVS-7s and the huge PVS-4s. Eventually we had a replacement for the PVS-4 that was made by litton and actually worked well.

Only latter did the m4 become common issue for larger units, however if the ranger batts had m4s in 89 then I'm sure delta had access to them. They had what ever they wanted and/or worked best.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:17:41 AM EDT
Didn't they use the same rifle that Al Pacino used in HEAT? What kind of rifle was that again?



R.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:35:33 AM EDT
The Hollywood Version:


Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:43:35 AM EDT
They look to me like Colt Commandos with 11.5" barrels and Aimpoints...I didn't know they had that type of Aimpoint in '93 though....movie mess up?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:16:43 AM EDT
I was issued a colt CAR 15 in 89 as a LRS commo guy.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 8:17:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 8:19:49 AM EDT by _DR]
SFOD-D (Delta) related pics in Somalia showing equipment.

poor quality pics, but there aren't a lot around for obvious reasons. Digital cameras were not "de riguer" in 1993. source: www.bhd93.com







Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:30:47 AM EDT








Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:42:01 AM EDT
Nice captures!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:57:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 12:04:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 12:18:21 PM EDT by JosephR]
they weren't M4s until they had been trademarked by Colt in the 1990's though, right?

movie promo (how do you like that honkin' M4?)

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:06:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:

Delta weapons are expansive and they have access to practically any weapon, foriegn or domestic.


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



I love how all of us gun nuts know exactly what scene in terminator that was from...it's one of my favorites.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:20:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:22:30 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]
It's Hollywood, there's bound to be goofs. That's definately a flat top M4 with some newer Aimpoints too.

ETA: That doesn't really look like an A2 FH on that M4 either.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:27:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:04:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
Aimpoint Comp M did not come out until 1997.. so Hollywood definitely goofed on that.





Jeez, it is a movie! They cannot accurately recreate everything.

Ya know, doesn't really look like Somalia to me, and the beach appears to point North not East, looks more like Morroco to me...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:32:51 PM EDT
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:18:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
they weren't M4s until they had been trademarked by Colt in the 1990's though, right?

movie promo (how do you like that honkin' M4?)

www.onesixthwarriors.com/photos/bhd_gallery/images/nassr1.jpg



Not sure about the official timing - but we referred to them at the time as CAR15's
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:38:35 PM EDT
because it was filmed there
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:45:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 7:47:18 PM EDT by JosephR]
they were still CAR15s until they got the notched barrels and the fatter handguards, right?


something else that the movie didn't get right that I would have liked to see I suppose would be thousands of dead civillians that were marching in the streets. Of course, I would not want to see any true civillian killed if they were forced to march but were they all forced?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:13:53 PM EDT
if you read the book, sgt paul howe(delta) says he was issued a CAR15.

but they obviously could use what they wanted because schugart/shugart (spellcheck?) used an m14.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 5:55:28 AM EDT
As we say in the tv business, "Close enough for radio."

Bill
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:10:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:10:53 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By JosephR:
they were still CAR15s until they got the notched barrels and the fatter handguards, right?


something else that the movie didn't get right that I would have liked to see I suppose would be thousands of dead civillians that were marching in the streets. Of course, I would not want to see any true civillian killed if they were forced to march but were they all forced?



Any carbine length AR-15 is a CAR-15 including the M4
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:29:12 AM EDT
How well does an Aimpoint work on a carry handle? Seems they would be very high up and pretty far back.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:35:42 AM EDT
that's definitely not entirely correct. An M4 is not an AR15. If you are trying to say that carbine length AR15s are CAR15s, then an M4 would not be a CAR15 because it is not built on an AR15 lower, it is built on an M16 lower.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:37:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rynich:
I was issued a colt CAR 15 in 89 as a LRS commo guy.



me too, i had a colt Car 15 in the late 80's because i humped a PRC77 radio.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:03:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
that's definitely not entirely correct. An M4 is not an AR15. If you are trying to say that carbine length AR15s are CAR15s, then an M4 would not be a CAR15 because it is not built on an AR15 lower, it is built on an M16 lower.





You are wrong again. An M16 is an AR-15. Just like a M4 is an AR-15. An XM177 is an AR-15.

An AR-15 is a complete family of weapons.

Here is a link for you to look at...

http://www.specializedarmament.com/images/art/SMGCAR.GIF

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:05:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 7:06:37 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By JosephR:
that's definitely not entirely correct. An M4 is not an AR15. If you are trying to say that carbine length AR15s are CAR15s, then an M4 would not be a CAR15 because it is not built on an AR15 lower, it is built on an M16 lower.





they were still CAR15s until they got the notched barrels and the fatter handguards, right?


something else that the movie didn't get right that I would have liked to see I suppose would be thousands of dead civillians that were marching in the streets. Of course, I would not want to see any true civillian killed if they were forced to march but were they all forced?




So by your logic the CAR15 that was issued in the 60s - 80s was not a CAR15 because it was build on a "M16" select fire reciever also?

Think before you post.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:06:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R0ME0:

Originally Posted By rynich:
I was issued a colt CAR 15 in 89 as a LRS commo guy.



me too, i had a colt Car 15 in the late 80's because i humped a PRC77 radio.



Romeo, you have my sympathies.
I still have lumps on the back of my neck from that beast.
And the PRC25 I carried before it.

RTOs go through their own private hell in Light Inf units.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:10:41 AM EDT
This is probably just semantics, similar to having an arguement about the Air Force issue Colt's 601, was it a AR-15 or a M16? But here is goes.......

During the time frame of 1994/95 the Colt's M4/A1 was adopted Standard A, the first contract signed, mass production began, and deliveries were made. These carbines have US Property markings, are marked M4 Carbine, and the serial number starts with a W. These are M4 Carbines.

Obviously there were various Colt's Carbines in use prior to the first issue of M4's in 1994/95. There were also some sort of M16A2 14.5" Carbines in use in Somalia. Here is an example:



These carbines were not "standard" service weapons delivered under contract to specific mil-specs, but were instead acquired by other means as was the Colt's 653. Other then the markings, one thing obvious that I noticed about all these Carbines in use prior 1994 is that they don't have M4 handguards, even though the handguards were patented in the 1980's.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:13:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
And the PRC25 I carried before it.




You are an old timer huh?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:28:11 AM EDT
While we are arguing semantics, the term CAR-15 is a good one. Earliest reference I know of regarding the CAR-15 dates back to 1964, and it was used by Colt's as a blanket name to cover their entire line of 5.56 weapons including 20" HBARs.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:42:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By _DR:
And the PRC25 I carried before it.




You are an old timer huh?



'81-'89.
Yep.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:55:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
How well does an Aimpoint work on a carry handle? Seems they would be very high up and pretty far back.



Zero wouldn't be as good as IBSZ- but be 'good enough' (I'm thinking a +/- 4" trajectory).

You'd shoot with your head up (more like a chin weld). Some of the guys so that now so they can use their rifle with gas masks and still be able to use the Aimpiont.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:06:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:18:35 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Ekie:
While we are arguing semantics, the term CAR-15 is a good one. Earliest reference I know of regarding the CAR-15 dates back to 1964, and it was used by Colt's as a blanket name to cover their entire line of 5.56 weapons including 20" HBARs.



I guess I just always thought of the CAR-15 as the RO607 series, whereas I view the XM177 designation starting with the RO609(E1 Army) to include RO610/610B (E1 USAF), RO619, RO620 (E1 export), RO629 (E2 Army) and RO6309 E2 USAF), RO639/640 (E2 export w&w/o FA) and of course the 9mm XM177 commandos (RO633/633HB, RO634 & RO635.)

It just seems that anything with an 11.5" barrel and collapsible gets labeled a CAR-15. Doesn't seem right, looking at the nomenclature tables. The RO608 also seems to be labeled as "CAR15" even though it did have fixed stock. (survival rifle with 10" (254 mm) barrel and fixed tubular buttstock. About 10 produced.)

I supposed this could be dabated forever with no clear resolution, but those are what I come up with... any body have TBR I? I'd like to say what they say.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:33:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:37:56 AM EDT by Stottman]
M-16A2 carbine was one of the terms used by the Military for M4 types, pre-Big Army adoption () of what we know know as the M4. 1994 according to the book, but SF didnt start to get M4A1s until 95, and the regular army didnt start to get M4s until 97. The M16A2 carbines/M4 didnt have an NSN, but were basically a commercial purchase, similar to the SR-25s purchased before the Mk11, various shotguns, Barrets before Army adoption, etc. Bushmaster's contract was during this era.

From what I have been able to gather, most were actually purchased and maintained by USSOCOM. They maintain a large central stock of equipment that is loaned to units as needed.

Even in the A2 era, it was sometimes called a CAR15 by the troops, regardless of what was on the receiver. Guys come up with their own names for stuff.

They were equiped with either improved (brass deflector and A1 sight) A1, or A2 uppers. Barrels were either M4 or even light weight pencil barrels (there is a reason a Colt 6920 was called a Gov't model carbine). The ones that I have seen all had commercial (no Gov't prop markings) M-16A2 markings.



The Aimpoint used in that era was the Aimpoint 5000.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:59:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By _DR:
And the PRC25 I carried before it.




You are an old timer huh?



'81-'89.
Yep.



I was just giving you a hard time, I saw a couple of prick 25's while I was in 90-96.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:06:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThePrisoner72:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



"Just what ya see pal"

LOL! Great scene from a great movie



I wonder how the T-800 manages to purchase -apparently- NFA firearms without filling in his forms and waiting half a year for it to be transferred to him? The movie is set in CALIFORNIA no less!
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:13:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlairHous:

Originally Posted By ThePrisoner72:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



"Just what ya see pal"

LOL! Great scene from a great movie



I wonder how the T-800 manages to purchase -apparently- NFA firearms without filling in his forms and waiting half a year for it to be transferred to him? The movie is set in CALIFORNIA no less!



Actually, in 1984 you could still buy Assault weapons in CA.

I asked the same question once, and someone that read the book version told me that the Terminator converts them in the book......
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:18:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By BlairHous:

Originally Posted By ThePrisoner72:

Originally Posted By glock23carry:


Phased plama rifles in the 40 watt range?

G



"Just what ya see pal"

LOL! Great scene from a great movie



I wonder how the T-800 manages to purchase -apparently- NFA firearms without filling in his forms and waiting half a year for it to be transferred to him? The movie is set in CALIFORNIA no less!



Actually, in 1984 you could still buy Assault weapons in CA.

I asked the same question once, and someone that read the book version told me that the Terminator converts them in the book......



Aaah I see...He converts his Uzi to FA!
Makes sense to me now.
It would be quite funny if when the janitor/landlord guy asks him "hey buddy? You got a dead cat in there?" the T-800 should infer that the ATF showed up to confiscate his weapons, and then they shot his cat and dog...hence the smell...
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:26:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By _DR:
And the PRC25 I carried before it.




You are an old timer huh?



'81-'89.
Yep.



I was just giving you a hard time, I saw a couple of prick 25's while I was in 90-96.



we have done our share of humping those beasts around. do you see what they carry now. unbelievable! i was in 87-91!
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