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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/29/2005 6:21:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2005 6:21:40 PM EDT by B-trash]
I have a bunch of Q3131A and IMI M855 ammuntion I bought a couple of years ago when the price was reasonable. About 3K of each.

The more reasurch I do on the 75 gr loads, the more I like them. I have shot some of the 75 gr TAP load. Like it alot. I currently have enough TAP on hand for 7 magazines.

I would like to start obtaining more of the 75 gr loads to replace my Q3131A and IMI M855.

Would you consider the remanfuctured BH ammunition for SHTF ammunition?

A couple of years ago, the price difference would cause me to stay with XM193 or Q3131A. Now the difference between those and the remanfuctured Black Hills is not as great...

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:15:40 PM EDT
I would trust my life to black hills blue box any day. It is top quality ammo.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 1:27:14 AM EDT
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.

With New, factory ammo (Black Hills makes New 75 Gn. in the Red Box lineup) your chances of all case and cartirdge dimensions are as close to "Perfect" as you can get. And when your skin is in the game...IMHO, you want "Perfection".

Just my $.02 worth.

Tack
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:19:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.
Tack

Does anyone have any experience with blown primers and Black Hills blue box?
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:29:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By YELLOWV:

I would trust my life to black hills blue box any day. It is top quality ammo.



I AM trusting it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 5:39:03 AM EDT
I would be hesitant to use the remanufactured ammo for SHTF. However, I think that you probably won't have any problems with it. It's your call.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 9:56:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By f2:

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.
Tack

Does anyone have any experience with blown primers and Black Hills blue box?



No never not in many hundreds of rounds. The primer is not sealed though.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 10:47:05 AM EDT
i shoot no other than BH reman. for serious shooting, and have NEVER experienced a SINGLE failure of any sort. It is truly great stuff for the price ($10/50rnds around here)
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 12:01:38 PM EDT
Their reman. ammo looks better than other makers "new" stuff.
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 1:08:41 PM EDT
I have used BH blue box for several years and have never had a problem. That being said, I do not use it for hd/sd. For that I rely on new manufacture(TAP). For other SHTF/TEOTWAWKI scenarios I would love to have several thousand rounds of it to augment my supply of XM193 and Wolf.

Seydou
Link Posted: 7/30/2005 2:13:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rob96:
Their reman. ammo looks better than other makers "new" stuff.



Not only looks better. It performs better as well.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 12:26:52 AM EDT
I try to keep a few boxes of new BH on hand to use for home defense. My stock of practice and potential SHTF ammo are all BH blue box.

I've never had any issues with the blue box ammo and I've fired a helluva lot more of it than the new stuff. On all future orders, I'm just gonna stick to the blue box. No need to fix what isn't broken.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 6:36:03 AM EDT
i have a few k's of the stuff through my rifles without a single hint of problems!

i see no problem with it.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:04:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By f2:

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.
Tack

Does anyone have any experience with blown primers and Black Hills blue box?



No blown primers here. I've shot alot of blue box. Not tons but alot for me. Over 500 rounds.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 11:13:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.

With New, factory ammo (Black Hills makes New 75 Gn. in the Red Box lineup) your chances of all case and cartirdge dimensions are as close to "Perfect" as you can get. And when your skin is in the game...IMHO, you want "Perfection".

Just my $.02 worth.

Tack



Um how much black hills reman ammo have you shot???

To answer the question of the thread starter, Yes, yes I would. I'd trust Black Hills ammo with my life, and in fact do. All my HD mags are loaded with Blue box 75bthp. I've never had a blown primer, or a primer pop out completly and jam up my gun. Not from Black Hills. Others yes, Black Hills no.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:46:19 AM EDT
To all of you guys with experience shooting Blue Box BH's, thanks for the replys. I will be ordering the Blue Box. Who has the best prices for the 75 gr. via mail order?

Thanks again,

Beat Trash
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:10:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By B-trash:
To all of you guys with experience shooting Blue Box BH's, thanks for the replys. I will be ordering the Blue Box. Who has the best prices for the 75 gr. via mail order?

Thanks again,

Beat Trash



Cabelas is $107.99 + shipping for 6 boxes(300 rounds) Or $18.99 a box of 50

MidwayUSA is $17.99 a box and $359.99 a case. That don't include shipping though. There are other places to look as well that should have it but those are the quickest off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:52:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 6:53:53 AM EDT by Cipo]

Originally Posted By B-trash:
To all of you guys with experience shooting Blue Box BH's, thanks for the replys. I will be ordering the Blue Box. Who has the best prices for the 75 gr. via mail order?

Thanks again,

Beat Trash




Tacked Ammo Price List - includes BH Blue Box.

Looks like Fulton Armory has the best price today including shipping.

ETA: My bad, looks like this price is 55gr, not 75gr. Sorry.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:29:56 AM EDT
Interesting thread. FWIW, Other than 5.56, I haven't shot a factory produced roundof ammo in my centerfire rifles, in over 10 years .. I reload, a lot, and am aware that good reloads can be as good as factory ammo .. and ..

I've never shot a round of BH in my life, .. but, I know it's good ammo from this and other forums I frequent. I don't question that.

But, the prices just quoted in this thread are HIGH! I just purchased 500 rounds of LC 193 at a gunshow this weekend, for $108 (includes tax). And, I suspect you can get it even cheaper, though you may have to pay shipping. So, what I'm hearing is, .....

That 300 rounds of BH is better than 500 rounds of LC, at the same price?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here .. but, I'm kinda new, and explanations are welcomed! Thanks guys.

Tony
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:45:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 8:46:07 AM EDT by DevL]
Its match ammo not cheap FMJ. Its better in every way. That is why it costs so much.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:09:42 AM EDT
Plus, it offers better terminal performance to boot.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT
Match? Is that what the designation "Blue Box" is? Well, that explains the price.

But, is that what you want for SHTF? Is it going to be used in a match rifle (that will get the best out of the ammo?). This isn't shooting prairie dogs. Consider this .. for every 1500 rounds of BH you buy, you can purchase 2500 rounds of LC. For every 3K you purchase, you can have 5K of LC. Throughout this forum we discuss the problems associated with cheaper ammo (usually that's Wolf, Silver Bear, Olympic, etc.) .. now we're saying that LC isn't good enough, even at a huge cost benefit? I don't think I agree with that based on the premise set forth: SHTF. Change that original premise to "sniping" or something similar, and now we're on the same page. Maybe even "buy a few boxes" for long range precision work .. I can agree with that too. But for balls to the wall combat .....?

Still, if someone wants to shoot BH blue box from the hip or full auto, it's fine with me .. free world. Thanks for taking the time to 'splain the blue box thing. Interesting discussion. Appreciate your indulgence, gentlemen.

Tony
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 10:55:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 10:58:19 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By car333:
Match? Is that what the designation "Blue Box" is? Well, that explains the price.


No 'Blue Box' indicates remanufactured using 1 fired Lake City brass. 'Red Box' is new manufacture with new components and sealer around the primer.



But, is that what you want for SHTF? Is it going to be used in a match rifle (that will get the best out of the ammo?).



Have you done ANY research on this topic at all before posting?

Advantages of the 75gr over M193:

1) Better terminal performance

  • Larger permanent cavity

  • Shorter "neck" in the wound channel

  • Higher reliability in fragmenting

  • Fragments to longer ranges, and in shorter barrels


2) Much lower muzzle flash.

Yes it's more accurate, but for typical defensive scenarios that's a bonus that won't be taken advantage of.

I'd rather have Black Hills 75 OTM over LC M855 ANY day, and I prefer BH 75gr OTM to M193/Q3131A as well. Red Box is preferable to Blue Box (note Red Box costs roughly 50% more).

If you verson of 'SHTF' involves you playing Rambo in the mud and water the better sealed Q3131A might be more what you need, otherwise there are better rounds available (notably the Black Hills stuff).
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:09:29 AM EDT
I would trust the blue box stuff totally--many thousands of rounds without a single failure. HOwever, I have had one primer come lose and do exactly what was described above but that was with BH remanufactured "seconds" in the white box--which I shoot even more of!!!! To me, blue box=better than most new manufacture
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:26:43 PM EDT



Have you done ANY research on this topic at all before posting?



Which area? External & terminal ballistics or SHTF scenarios? Ballistics? Yes, quite a bit both professionally and as a hobby. AT LEAST enough that 1) I don't need to depend on an internet forum for that info and 2) enough to be able to weed out the BS from scientific fact and personal opinion.

SHTF scenarios? Nope, not much at all. In fact, the above post was the first time I've ever used the acronym 'shtf'. And yes, my 'expectations' of such a scenario do go more toward close and medium range combat than long range sniping (defining long range here as greater than 300 m). I'd much prefer the latter; however, I don't think my preferences will matter much.

So, if you have insight as to how the world as we know it will end, I'm all ears. And, I don't mean that as a 'jab' .. I recognize there may be such research out there, that I'm not aware of.

Again, I don't doubt the quality of BH ammo ... never used it, but I may try it out based on this thread .. but the bulk of my storage ammo will be LC .. If distances get beyond 300 m, I have rifles which are much more capable at those distances.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:36:10 PM EDT
I'd probably rather have XM193 over the remanufactured Black Hills BB. That said, even though it's remanufactured, it's almost as good as anything out there brand new.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:44:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 1:45:43 PM EDT by altav]
My $.02... I've shot thousands of rounds of BH BB 77gr SMK and I have never had a failure at all. With my Lilja barreld Recce, I can hit sub MOA groups all day long. IMHO, nothing can touch it considering the quality vs the cost.

ETA: I am waiting for a Midway order to try out the 75gr.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:48:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By car333:
[Again, I don't doubt the quality of BH ammo ... never used it, but I may try it out based on this thread .. but the bulk of my storage ammo will be LC .. If distances get beyond 300 m, I have rifles which are much more capable at those distances.



I don't think you understood Forest's first point. The terminal ballistics of 75gr OTM over 55gr FMJ is *significant*. Meaning, for terminating the life of a human being, it is better, at all effective ranges. Regardless of whether you handload or not, the 75gr OTM bullet does a better job of killing people. 'Nuff said.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 1:55:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By car333:


Have you done ANY research on this topic at all before posting?



Which area? External & terminal ballistics


That is what you were questioning - why the match round.


? Ballistics? Yes, quite a bit both professionally and as a hobby.

Then you should have known WHY the match round is a good option. Pleny of published research on it.

No matter what your personal idea of SHTF is (home invastion to brain eating mutant zombie aliens), odds are any gunfight will be at 100y or MUCH MUCH less. Choose ammo that is reliable in your rifle (BH meets this requirement) and maximizes wound potential (75gr Trumps 55gr, as does the 68gr & 69gr loads).
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:06:30 PM EDT


Then you should have known WHY the match round is a good option. Pleny of published research on it.



Actually true "match" bullets are designed around stability and external ballistics, while 'hunting' bullets (bullets designed to destoy tissue vs. punch paper) excel in the terminal ballistics department. Any bullet manufacturer will tell you that it's a trade off .. the things that make an excellent hunting bullet, generally don't make excellent match bullets. There's a narrow range which some bullets fall into, which make them more 'general' purpose. The excellent Sierra 85gr HPBT in 6mm comes to mind. Further some companies like Nosler, Sierra, & Hornady, figured out they could make a match bullet (with a deep hollowpoint to keep the weight in the rear) and then fill that hollowpoint with a pointy piece of plastic to increase BC AND act as a wedge upon impact, turning the little bullets into BOMBS. If you've ever seen a prairie dog hit with a vmax, then you know what I mean. That same explosive terminal performance is NOT what you want however, when you're shooting deer (or zombies .. oh that's right .. head shots only he
To keep this closer to the thread originator's intent, the discussion has really made me curious about the BH ammo, and I'll give them a try when I buy my next batch. It is interesting though ... if this thread had been about using wolf as shtf ammo, the outcry would have been to use LC. That viewpoint can be seen in various threads on this forum.

Thanks for your patience and willingness to discuss ... now I'll STFU. Have a good evening.

Tony

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:40:46 PM EDT
So all the premier wound ballistics researchers and the FBI are wrong and your imaginary fairy tale where 75 and 77 grain match ammo do not have exceptionally better terminal ballistics than hunting ammo is right?

Wow what kind of crack do you have to smoke to trump years of expensive and time consuming ballistics research and wound analysis by making up stuff in your head? How can you see the data and refute it?

Oh wait... your talking out your ass and do not have any modern research into .223 wound ballistics! Instead you are making gross generalisations and you are not right.



Normally I would not have been such an ass but you were given the correct info and came back with garbage you heard from someone who also did not know what they are talking about. It is necessary for newbies to see this kind of misinformation shot down in a big ball of fire. This is how I learned... now you have learned.

PS: The best .308 for terminal performance is a polymer tipped varmint bullet. BEST TERMINAL PERFORMANCE - WOUND CHANNEL for .223 is an open tip MATCH bullet, not a hunting bullet. The individual bullets wound and its depth of penetration are what matter not bullet consruction across entire classes and calibers.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 3:51:57 PM EDT
Well said, if a little harsh
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 4:03:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:20:21 PM EDT


So all the premier wound ballistics researchers and the FBI are wrong and your imaginary fairy tale where 75 and 77 grain match ammo do not have exceptionally better terminal ballistics than hunting ammo is right?



Actually, they've (FBI) has been wrong before .. unless you don't remember when they thought the 9mm was a better duty round ... oooops .. dead cops proved that wrong. You really shouldn't blindly believe in everything someone says. As I've just learned, not to believe in everything you say.


Normally I would not have been such an ass but you were given the correct info and came back with garbage you heard from someone who also did not know what they are talking about.



You're right .. we agree on that point .. the ass issue.

Newbies should know that 1) the internet isn't the end all of research 2) everything you read isn't necessarily true, and 3) just because someone says it loud, often, and with conviction, doesn't mean it's true.

PS: The best .308 for terminal performance is a polymer tipped varmint bullet. BEST TERMINAL PERFORMANCE - WOUND CHANNEL for .223 is an open tip MATCH bullet, not a hunting bullet. The individual bullets wound and its depth of penetration are what matter not bullet consruction across entire classes and calibers.



OK ... here's your chance to really shine, what are the bullets (.308) manufacturer and weight please. Yes weight matters, as Nosler makes quite a few Ballistic bullets which are actually hunting bullets .. I'd like to at least know which .308 varmint bullet you're referring to ... I may need some of those he
And, as you noted, I was talking in generalities .. I even mentioned some bullets which fit both categories. If you can contain your rage long enough, maybe you would have seen that ... yes, I spoke in generalities, and every word is absolutely true ... and, it's stood the test of time. If I said something that's wrong, please, be very very specific, and tell me. I can make a mistake and I'm man enough to admit it in public.. if it's wrong. SHOW ME oh wise one.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 8:21:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 8:22:47 PM EDT by Cato]
The 7.62 rd. is the Hornady 155gr. TAP, whereas 5.56 rds. like the 75gr. TAP or the 77gr. Mk262,
all of which use "open tip match" (OTM) bullets, are ideal for hunting man sized targets.
They penetrate deeply enough (around 12") but not too much for the human torso.

This is what ballistics expert Gary Roberts says:


Originally posted by DocGKR:
[QB] What combat rifle caliber is most effective is highly situation dependent.

If I knew for certain I was going to be in harms way on a given day and had the luxury of preparing for the encounter, neither 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, nor 7.62x39mm would be first on my list--I would unhesitatingly choose to use a compact 16-18” barrel .308/7.62x51 mm rifle, like an M14 SOPMOD-EBR/M1A, DSA FAL, the new Robinson Arms SCAR-H, or a .308 AR type carbine (assuming it is a reliable one), firing Hornady 155 gr AMAX or Nosler 150 gr Ballistic Tip, as this combination has the greatest likelyhood of rapidly incapacitating an opponent over a wide variety of circumstances and potential engagement scenarios. Keep in mind that .308 is much better at penetrating intermediate barriers and shooting into vehicles than 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, or 7.62x39mm.

Yet if the situation was changed, .308 might not be such a great choice. If I needed to hump my rifle and all ammunition while in the field for several weeks, not knowing when an armed encounter might occur or in what conditions—the heavy .308 systems are not feeling so good compared with M4/AK sized weapons. In this situation, a 6.8 mm 16” barrel “Recon/Recce” type rifle would be ideal. Likewise, in an urban environment when working in cramped conditions, clearing buildings, and fighting from within vehicles, a 6.8 mm 12” barrel “CQB” type carbine would be very handy and hard to improve upon. Keep in mind that 6.8 mm performance was optimized for barrels in the 12” to 16” range, while most 5.56 mm ammunition has a dramatic decrease in terminal performance when velocity is reduced with shorter barrel lengths. The 6.8 mm is more versatile and effective than both 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm.

While 7.62x39 mm has the potential to offer good terminal performance when using well engineered ammunition, like the 125 gr Lapua JSP, and it offers better intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm, the 6.8 mm is generally more accurate, flatter shooting, longer ranged, and demonstrates better terminal performance than 7.62x39 mm.

5.56 mm carbines offer an advantage when limited penetration through common intermediate barriers is desirable, for example, LE personnel performing entry in crowded urban environments. For those LE personnel who will need to punch through intermediate barriers and into vehicles, both 6.8 mm and 7.62x39 mm have superior penetration ability compared to 5.56 mm.

A quick comparative illustration is noted below (barrel length--16” 5.56 mm/6.8 mm & 18” .308):



Bottom line—when you positively, absolutely must incapacitate someone as rapidly as possible, a good .308 is probably the best choice, barring other logistical and ergonomic factors that may come into play. [/QB]

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:04:01 PM EDT
Newsflash: the 155 grain .308" Hornady AMAX IS a match bullet, just like all AMAX bullets.

Just because it wears a plastic tip, it is not necessarily designed as a "varmint" or "deer" bullet.

I have to wonder, do these ammo experts test every single bullet available?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:37:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cato:
The 7.62 rd. is the Hornady 155gr. TAP, whereas 5.56 rds. like the 75gr. TAP or the 77gr. Mk262,
all of which use "open tip match" (OTM) bullets, are ideal for hunting man sized targets.
They penetrate deeply enough (around 12") but not too much for the human torso.



Thanks much for taking the time to provide that info. I've used the 85 SI HP on deer (in .243) and as you know, it's a HP too. However, Sierra plainly states it's a game bullet. And on varmint hunting pages, there are often arguments about using Amax bullets on animals, with the complaint that they are match bullets designed for paper and not flesh, and therefore prone to wounding rather than killing cleanly. Thanks SWO_daddy.

To the gentleman who started this thread .. sorry about hijacking it, and things moving in a different direction. But I learned something about BH ammo, and true to what I've come to expect from these forums, a couple of the senior members actually provided excellent, coherent arguments that'll move me to try some next time I make a buy. So, if the flames start .. I'll not fan them.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:53:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.

With New, factory ammo (Black Hills makes New 75 Gn. in the Red Box lineup) your chances of all case and cartirdge dimensions are as close to "Perfect" as you can get. And when your skin is in the game...IMHO, you want "Perfection".

Just my $.02 worth.

Tack



Um how much black hills reman ammo have you shot???

To answer the question of the thread starter, Yes, yes I would. I'd trust Black Hills ammo with my life, and in fact do. All my HD mags are loaded with Blue box 75bthp. I've never had a blown primer, or a primer pop out completly and jam up my gun. Not from Black Hills. Others yes, Black Hills no.



Absolutely none! That's not the issue.

The issue is that remanufactured ammo specs. in areas where there is "Wear" are not 100%, and that includes Primer pockets. They wear on the very first extraction and re-insertion. They can and do "Blow", and whether it's Black Hills (I pack their red Box 75 Gn. for SD) or any other manufacture...those primer pockets can not be restored to their original spec.

Let's get back to the issue here...Would anyone disagree that "New" Black Hills isn't better than "Remanufactured" Black Hills? If you have a choice (which the author of this thread has) wouldn't you want the best?

Tack
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:22:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Tack:
100% NO!

One major issue that can, and does happen with renaufactured ammo in an AR is the chance of a loose primer pocket losing the primer in the trigger group and stopping the whole Shibang.

With New, factory ammo (Black Hills makes New 75 Gn. in the Red Box lineup) your chances of all case and cartirdge dimensions are as close to "Perfect" as you can get. And when your skin is in the game...IMHO, you want "Perfection".

Just my $.02 worth.

Tack



Um how much black hills reman ammo have you shot???

To answer the question of the thread starter, Yes, yes I would. I'd trust Black Hills ammo with my life, and in fact do. All my HD mags are loaded with Blue box 75bthp. I've never had a blown primer, or a primer pop out completly and jam up my gun. Not from Black Hills. Others yes, Black Hills no.



Absolutely none! That's not the issue.

The issue is that remanufactured ammo specs. in areas where there is "Wear" are not 100%, and that includes Primer pockets. They wear on the very first extraction and re-insertion. They can and do "Blow", and whether it's Black Hills (I pack their red Box 75 Gn. for SD) or any other manufacture...those primer pockets can not be restored to their original spec.

Let's get back to the issue here...Would anyone disagree that "New" Black Hills isn't better than "Remanufactured" Black Hills? If you have a choice (which the author of this thread has) wouldn't you want the best?

Tack



Bottom line, BH blue box is very good ammo. I use their 75gr loading as a practice load. It shoots to with 0.5MOA of all the Hornday 75gr TAP in all my RECCEs/MRPs with SS barrels. I only use new ammo for all other purposes.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:43:36 PM EDT

Good stuff here Gentlemen & Thank You !

I wish I knew more and could contribute .... but I'm still learning .....
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