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Posted: 9/26/2004 12:47:46 PM EST
I see BH is loading this exclusivily for Georgia Arms. Has anyone tried it yet? Do you think it's worth the money over the standard BH 77 gr. load?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:26:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911roben:
I see BH is loading this exclusivily for Georgia Arms. Has anyone tried it yet?


I have



Do you think it's worth the money over the standard BH 77 gr. load?


For a defensive load? Most definately the 77gr Nosler has a much better damage profile than the 77gr SMK that makes up the 'standard' 77gr BlackHills loading.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:14:52 PM EST
I used the BH/OTM 77gr to humanely take a bear......
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:21:00 PM EST
Thanks guys, Is this loading available by the box from anyone or only in lots of 500 from georgia arms?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:01:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911roben:
Thanks guys, Is this loading available by the box from anyone or only in lots of 500 from georgia arms?



The Mk262 Mod 1 with Noslers is ONLY available from Georgia Precision.

The only other way it to try to roll your own.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:23:10 PM EST
Are those of you who are writing "Georgia Arms" meaning to write "Georgia Precision"...? I looked at both websites and I can find this ammo only on the latter site (which I expected). So...is GP the only place to get the BH loads with 77gr. Noslers AS WELL AS the 77gr. SMK (both Mk262 Mod 1) loads...?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 12:46:46 AM EST
I thought the 77 SMK was the shiznitz!

So the Nosler has the better wound profile???
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 7:23:29 AM EST
Black Hills makes a SAMMI 77gr SMK load. It's more accurate than the Mk262Mod1 Noslers - but it has a long 'neck' prior to fragmenting.

The SAMMI 77gr SMK is available from any Black Hills dealer - as is the 75gr OTM 'Heavy Match' from Black Hills (which is cheaper than the 77gr SMK and has a better wound profile).

IIRC Fulton Armory was selling some 77gr SMK Mk262 with the non-canalured 77gr SMKs, that was loaded hotter.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:49:05 AM EST
As far as I know the GP MK262 will not be produced. I am cancelling the order I sent in for 1500 rounds. I would not reccomend trying to buy any of it as its been many months of waiting and no ammo.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 9:41:52 AM EST
Forget the GPSS ammo, it's been cancelled.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 6:15:51 PM EST
Thanks for the replies! what is it about the 75 gr. OTM that gives a better wound channel than the 77 gr. SMK?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:39:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By 1911roben:
Thanks for the replies! what is it about the 75 gr. OTM that gives a better wound channel than the 77 gr. SMK?



It starts yawing and fragmenting much earlier. The SMK can take up to 5" before it yaws and fragments; the 75gr OTM does it from 0.75" to 2" of penetration.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:05:02 AM EST
Buy the Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured round. Its not NATO pressure but will work for all the needs you would have in real life. How many times in your life will you be shooting at PEOPLE beyond 50-75 yards? How many times has this happened in the US total including FBI and SWAT snipers? Not many Id bet.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:41:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
Buy the Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured round. Its not NATO pressure but will work for all the needs you would have in real life. How many times in your life will you be shooting at PEOPLE beyond 50-75 yards? How many times has this happened in the US total including FBI and SWAT snipers? Not many Id bet.



DevL has nailed it on the head. But even at SAMMI pressures the 75gr will fragment way out past what a soldier can expect to shoot at.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:40:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Buy the Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured round. Its not NATO pressure but will work for all the needs you would have in real life. How many times in your life will you be shooting at PEOPLE beyond 50-75 yards? How many times has this happened in the US total including FBI and SWAT snipers? Not many Id bet.



DevL has nailed it on the head. But even at SAMMI pressures the 75gr will fragment way out past what a soldier can expect to shoot at.



Just out of curiousity what's the fragmentation range of the SAAMI spec 75gr TAP?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:42:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Buy the Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured round. Its not NATO pressure but will work for all the needs you would have in real life. How many times in your life will you be shooting at PEOPLE beyond 50-75 yards? How many times has this happened in the US total including FBI and SWAT snipers? Not many Id bet.



DevL has nailed it on the head. But even at SAMMI pressures the 75gr will fragment way out past what a soldier can expect to shoot at.



Just out of curiousity what's the fragmentation range of the SAAMI spec 75gr TAP?


What barrel length?

16" (2616 fps MV) has a fragmentation range of 200y
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:10:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:13:04 PM EST
one thing I liked about the 77 nato ammo was the combination of a sealed primer, military case, and cannelured 77g heavy bullet. One possibility is to make up "mex match" ammo consisting of a military case with sealed primer, and load my own bullet.

Any source of a heavy 77g cannelured bullet?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:25:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Buy the Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured round. Its not NATO pressure but will work for all the needs you would have in real life. How many times in your life will you be shooting at PEOPLE beyond 50-75 yards? How many times has this happened in the US total including FBI and SWAT snipers? Not many Id bet.



DevL has nailed it on the head. But even at SAMMI pressures the 75gr will fragment way out past what a soldier can expect to shoot at.



Just out of curiousity what's the fragmentation range of the SAAMI spec 75gr TAP?


What barrel length?

16" (2616 fps MV) has a fragmentation range of 200y



Ooops, I forgot that little bit of important info...

Yes, from a 16" barrel is what I wanted to know, thanks for the info Forest!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:38:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 3:39:33 PM EST by GLOCKshooter]
Couple of quick Q's:

1) Does the cannelure change the wounding potential, or is it solely insurance against bullet setback?
2) Is there a significant difference between 75 gr Saami TAP, Black Hills Blue box, and Black Hills red box?

I know I've asked about this type of stuff before, but I'm about to get a 1/7 16" mid length, www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=207911&page=7
and so it's time to cast a few thousand votes with my credit card.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:45:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Tag, I'm it.

Where can I buy some Hornady TAP 75 grain cannelured rounds?



Try HERE at Natchez

HTH
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:10:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:00:33 PM EST
Thanks for the great replies! Does the cannelure help the bullet fragment? Out of a 16" bbl. what is the velocity diff. between the tap round and the nato round?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:24:04 PM EST
The 75 grain round (Hornady) is both more accurate and has better terminal ballistics than the 77 grain Nosler. The Sierra 77 grain is supposed to be (and in my experience) more accurate than the 75 grain Hornady OTM round it also has an excessively long neck before yawing in tissue. The 75 grain round is the best thing from a terminal standpoint.

The difference in the TAP and Black Hills loading is that the Black Hills load is not cannelured. Both the BH and TAP load have sealed primers. The MK262 had a CRIMPED primer pocket too which was special. Then again you dont really need crimped primers unless you ammo is loaded to NATO pressure. The cannelure is not needed for fragmentation (though it does not hurt). It is there to prevent bullet set back.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:31:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911roben:
Thanks for the great replies! Does the cannelure help the bullet fragment? Out of a 16" bbl. what is the velocity diff. between the tap round and the nato round?



Around 150 fps. It does not matter though as there are no factory loadings for NATO pressure 77 or 75 grain ammo available. Also note the 77 grain NATO ammo is innacurate because of the high pressures. My 14.5" 1/7 M4 barrel can do MOA or less with the 75 grain SAAMI pressure ammo. Hitting your target is more important at beyond 100+ yards than terminal ballistics IMO.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:20:44 PM EST
thanks devl! I'll be ordering some of the tap rounds to try.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:54:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:55:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:57:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:00:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 6:01:22 AM EST by tatjana]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:02:32 AM EST
Tatjana, what kind of performance should I expect with 75gr TAP from a 14.5 1:7 M4?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:06:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:11:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:24:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By tatjana:
In short, solid fragmentation starting at 2" through 11" with penetration of a large section of the bullet base and jacket to 13-14" This should continue up to about 100 meters for an M4.


Tat,
2200fps seems to be floor fragmentation velocity for the Hornady 75gr OTM.

Hornady lists fragmentation to 125yards with a 14.5" barrel. However for the MV they indicated 150y is at the 2200fps point. (all the other barrel lengths tested from 11.5" to 24" indicate a 2200fps floor).

I have the Hornady test results if you'd like a copy.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:26:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 6:29:33 AM EST by QuietShootr]

Originally Posted By tatjana:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Tatjana, what kind of performance should I expect with 75gr TAP from a 14.5 1:7 M4?



We tested that round from a 16" here.

In short, solid fragmentation starting at 2" through 11" with penetration of a large section of the bullet base and jacket to 13-14" This should continue up to about 100 meters for an M4.



Well, that sounds good to me. I just ordered 200 rounds from Natchez, since MK262 appears to be totally unavailable.

Edit: I see that you do recommend the TAP since it's cannelured. Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:05:16 AM EST
Is the Hornady 75gr TAP signficantly better than regular Black Hills 75gr blue-box?

-z
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:08:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:13:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Is the Hornady 75gr TAP signficantly better than regular Black Hills 75gr blue-box?

-z



Only if more $$$ equals better.




So they are the same load?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:14:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Is the Hornady 75gr TAP signficantly better than regular Black Hills 75gr blue-box?



Only if more $$$ equals better.


Thanks. That is excellent information.

I was looking at the TAP; it's about 50 cents a round. I shoot BH75 all the time for match use and get it for about $298/case out the door.

-z
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:16:17 AM EST
Who sells BH 75gr? and how much is it?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:16:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:23:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Is the Hornady 75gr TAP signficantly better than regular Black Hills 75gr blue-box?



Only if more $$$ equals better.


Thanks. That is excellent information.

I was looking at the TAP; it's about 50 cents a round. I shoot BH75 all the time for match use and get it for about $298/case out the door.

-z



Damn where you get it for that price? New or reman.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:26:44 AM EST
QuietShootr & photoman,

I shoot the blue-box remanufactured exclusively. Never had a problem with it; it's accurate and consistent lot to lot.

My local gun shop & police supply place has it for that price for regulars, but any dealer can get it for around $340/case in smaller quantities.

-z
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:46:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:52:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Zak-Smith
Is this the Black Hills you shoot?
Thanks.


Yes. Black Hills 75gr Heavy Match blue box (reman).
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:57:17 AM EST
Is that round sealed?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:59:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
QuietShootr & photoman,

I shoot the blue-box remanufactured exclusively. Never had a problem with it; it's accurate and consistent lot to lot.

My local gun shop & police supply place has it for that price for regulars, but any dealer can get it for around $340/case in smaller quantities.

-z



Ok I thought you were saying thats what the places everyday price was.
I'm with you I like the rman stuff too, I've yet to knotice a differance between it and the new stuff.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:41:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:51:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:57:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 9:02:04 AM EST
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