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Posted: 12/22/2003 8:18:37 AM EDT
Has anyone used this ammo, if so how well did it do?  

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 9:11:41 AM EDT
i am abke to get ahold of the black hills 77gr molly in the blue box.

i would like to know as well if this is a good defensive round.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:18:52 AM EDT
I shoot the 69gr SMK's, Blue Box, in service rifle competition.  It's good stuff at 200 and 300 yards.  Never tried the 77's before, but I plan to next season (got a faster twist barrel now).  

If you're not reloading, the Black Hills stuff is a good way to go.  
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:26:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hanschen_klein:
i am abke to get ahold of the black hills 77gr molly in the blue box.

i would like to know as well if this is a good defensive round.
View Quote


It is a good defensive round.  The cannalured version is now (unfortunetly) the new bullet in the MK262 Mod1.

I say unfortunetly because the SMK rounds all have a longer 'neck' in the wound profile then their competitor's equivalents.

The blue box SMK doesn't have the cannalure. Which is nice feature to prevent setback - thus enhancing reliability.  Its important for military users - but so far as a civilian I have not had any issues with setback. (fingers crossed)  Then again I don't have full-auto nor have I shot more than 600 rounds total of blue box 77gr SMK & 75gr Hornady combined.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:44:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2003 11:46:16 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Originally Posted By Hanschen_klein:
i would like to know as well if this is a good defensive round.
View Quote


The Black Hills SMK ammo, both 69 & 77 grain are excellent ACCURACY shooting rounds in [b]MOST[/b] rifles. Both are excellent bullets for 223 reloaders, depending on your barrel length and twist rate.

As a "defensive rounds", suggest ya check out the "Ammunition Forum" where you'll find ballistic gelitin tests for the 77 SMK.

The long "neck" produced in gelatin and verified IRL by our testing at the farm on varmints and such, DO NOT equate to a good defensive round IMO. We've killed plenty of critters with them, but they seem to go aways before they realize they been killed, (mostly shots thru the heart). Checking the critter post-death seems to agree that in small animals and fowl, the SMKs go straight thru, unless contact with substantial bone mass occurs.

Suggest you might also want to check the [b]77 Nosler OTM[/b], which has a very short "neck" and appears (with one exception so-far in my testing of it) to be a [b]MUCH better choice for "defensive purposes"[/b]. It too has a ballistic testing thread, tacked there.

Mike

added: the MK262 Mod1, mentioned by Forest above is the same as the 77 Nosler OTM, I referred to above.....
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 12:03:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
As a "defensive rounds", suggest ya check out the "Ammunition Forum" where you'll find ballistic gelitin tests for the 77 SMK.
View Quote


We never tested the 77gr SMK.  Only the 77gr Nosler.

The long "neck" produced in gelatin and verified IRL by our testing at the farm on varmints and such, DO NOT equate to a good defensive round IMO. We've killed plenty of critters with them, but they seem to go aways before they realize they been killed, (mostly shots thru the heart). Checking the critter post-death seems to agree that in small animals and fowl, the SMKs go straight thru, unless contact with substantial bone mass occurs.
View Quote


The 77gr SMK is STILL an excellent defensive round.  The neck is slightly longer than on the 75gr Hornday or 77gr Nosler, nevertheless, it works quite well.  Not my first choice, however.

Suggest you might also want to check the [b]77 Nosler OTM[/b], which has a very short "neck" and appears (with one exception so-far in my testing of it) to be a [b]MUCH better choice for "defensive purposes"[/b]. It too has a ballistic testing thread, tacked there.
View Quote


I agree that the Nosler should also be tried.  However, if your primary concern is accuracy, the SMK will [i]probably[/i] be more accurate for you.  But you need to do your own testing to be sure.

added: the MK262 Mod1, mentioned by Forest above is the same as the 77 Nosler OTM, I referred to above.....
View Quote


Not anymore.  The MK262 Mod 1 now uses the 77gr Sierra (now that Sierra finally decided to add the cannelure.)
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 12:34:28 PM EDT
Brouhaha cleared it up pretty much.  The cannelured SMK "should" be more accurate.  Noone I know has done any accuracy testing.  It "should" have a longer neck.  Noone I know has done any gel testing.  

When you change the design of the bullet its performance could change slightly both in terms of accuracy and terminal performance.  We can only use supposition until the round is actually tested.

Also the SMK will be used in all the MK 262 Mod 1 loads from now on.  We still get the Nosler load in the AR15 group buy.  That is good to some people (people with M4s) and bad to others (people with SPRs).
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 8:54:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2003 8:58:23 PM EDT by Bayou_Paladin]
If you guys don't mind explaining a few things to us "un-informed".  [newbie]

Why is a 'short neck' a good or a bad thing?

Why exactly do we want a cannalure?

So out of all those loads you have talked about, which one can you best recommend then, for an M4 with a 16" barrel with a 1 in 7 twist for defensive/SHTF purpose?  The 77grain Nosler OTM?  Does Georgia Precision sell this ammo loaded by Black Hills?

Thanks in advance.

BP
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 9:01:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2003 9:02:21 PM EDT by DevL]
Originally Posted By Bayou_Paladin:
If you guys don't mind explaining a few things to us "un-informed".  

Why is a 'short neck' a good or a bad thing?

Why exactly do we want a cannalure?

So out of all those loads you have talked about, which one can you best recommend then, for an M4 with a 16" barrel with a 1 in 7 twist for defensive/SHTF purpose?

Thanks in advance.

BP
View Quote


Short neck refers to the distance before the bullet ysws in tissue and fragments.  unitl it yaws its just a .22 diameter wound.

Cannelure gives the brass something to grip.  It prevents bullet set back (bullet getting pressed into the brass)

The best load for your rifle is the 77 grain Nosler loaded by Black Hills in the MK 262 Mod 1 format.  It has match grade accuracy excellent terminal ballistics, NATO pressure (higher velocity) thicker brass a crimped primer (to prevent the primer from popping out due to high pressure) etc.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:30:18 AM EDT
Thanks for straighting me out brou, seems I learn something new here everday. Not a bad thing! [:)]

Sorry for the confusion over the MK262 Mod1 issue.

FWIW, I have used the 77 Nosler OTM outta my CR6724 with a [b]very hot load[/b] of H335 and it has produced 3/8" 3 shot one hole groups consistently at 100 yards outta this 24" 1/9 twist AR rifle. By the same token, when dad grabbed up 3 of the HOT loads, to try in his "custom" 1/7.75" Krieger barreled Rem 700 they did NOT group that well outta his rifle. Seems they produced hair over 1" groups, for what this is worth.

I am still working with this bullet (the 77 OTM) for my 1/7 twist M4 and hope to do much more testing with it after deer season, although for those looking to get the fast hot NATO loads, you might contact GPSS as I am having quite a chore getting their MUZZLE VELOCITY outta my 16" using commercial Remington and LC brass and my current primer/brass/powder combinations, seems I'm still about 60-80 fps slow at the present time.

For those interested Jeff on the EE sells the "cannelured" 77 OTMs by the 100 round lots for those wanting the cannelured version, but I also have the non-cannelured versions which I'm using too. As my DPMS 16" 1/7, M4 sold by CMMG has the feed-ramps I have had no set-back problem as of yet, (with fingers crossed here).

Good info above and with only one exception (on a doe last month) this bullet, the 77 OTM shows promising results. I have to search now for where in the heck it was I saw the 77 SMK testing,

ya sure this is not it brouhaha? From the Ammo Faq????

[img]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/77grMKing.jpg[/img]

Says it's the 77 MatchKing and has the long "neck"?

Mike

 
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:26:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
ya sure this is not it brouhaha? From the Ammo Faq????

[url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/77grMKing.jpg[/url]

Says it's the 77 MatchKing and has the long "neck"?
View Quote


That's a SMK, but it's not a photo Tat and I took.  We were given that photo by an Ammo FAQ source.  I see why you think we tested it now (I forgot that pic was in the FAQ)
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