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Posted: 2/5/2003 6:15:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 12:48:08 PM EST by slyguy2000]
Watch out for illegal c-mag scams!!

I recently purchased one from a reputable person on Gunbroker.com, turns out, when I called Beta Co. to get a cost on a refurbish, and described my mag to them, they told me mine sounds like it is a post-ban model. When they asked me for my drum serial #'s, I replyed "What serial#'s"

Turns out, that my mag was a restricted, post ban version, that had all the "restricted" and serial # markings milled off the drums! These people did a really nice job, too nice if you ask me! unless you knew what you were looking for, you would have never have known. The dealer I got it from had no clue either! Luckily he is refunding my purchase money, and working with authorities & Beta Co. to trace the origin of the mag.

Things to look for if you have a "pre-ban" C-Mag and "NO Verification Papers":

1) it should have a 'Y' brace on the back of it (3 screws), and a single screw on front, that hold the feed tower on. This 'Y' bracket should go over the front of the feed tower (on the front, and clip on underneith). If yours has a single screw, on front, and single screw on back, and the metal strap goes underneath, you more than likely have a POST-BAN (or have an upgraded clip, please contact Beta Co. to be sure!

2) each drum should have a unique serial number on the front, near the bottom of the face. Each drum should have a different number (yes, left and right should have different numbers!) These numbers can be verified by Beta Co. if you have any doubts, call Beta CO., and they can tell you when your mag was mfr'd.

3) If you have any questions as to the legality of your mag, call Beta Co.!

*this magazine is no longer in my possession, it was returned to the dealer who sold it to me*

www.betaco.com
Phone: 1-800-669-2382
or email: KMiller@betaco.com

better to be safe than sorry, illegal mags can cost you your freedom!

notice in the above picture, there are NO Serial numbers...


notice on the back, the restricted markings were milled off too
Link Posted: 2/5/2003 8:54:43 AM EST
Crap!!! I'm going to check mine tonight!!! Thanks for the warning.
Link Posted: 2/5/2003 1:13:10 PM EST
I'm safe too, the serial numbers worried me! [^]
Link Posted: 2/7/2003 2:43:15 PM EST
Not really sure on what is meant on the y bracket, mine has 3 screws but the bottom leg is crimped over the bottom of the feed tower and the over the surface of the drums not the top of it? It does have 2 unique serial numbers tho. On my manual it has one serial number but not both.
Link Posted: 2/7/2003 2:50:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/7/2003 2:51:19 PM EST by slyguy2000]
Originally Posted By Mr45auto: Not really sure on what is meant on the y bracket, mine has 3 screws but the bottom leg is crimped over the bottom of the feed tower and the over the surface of the drums not the top of it? It does have 2 unique serial numbers tho. On my manual it has one serial number but not both.
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if your clip looks like this: [img]http://hudson.macdirect.com/images/betaclip.jpg[/img] (pardon my mess) then it's more than likely a postban (or upgraded part)
Link Posted: 2/8/2003 8:55:54 AM EST
Whoever altered that mag sure did a nice job of it anyway. It's a shame that they then tried to take advantage of someone with it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2003 8:14:15 PM EST
Since the mag isn't marked, doesn't the AW ban say it's assumed to be pre-ban? Also with such a good job done on that mag, wouldn't it be extremely difficult or nearly impossible to prove that the mag had LEO markings to begin with?
Link Posted: 2/11/2003 4:16:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/11/2003 4:23:06 AM EST by slyguy2000]
Originally Posted By sf46: Since the mag isn't marked, doesn't the AW ban say it's assumed to be pre-ban? Also with such a good job done on that mag, wouldn't it be extremely difficult or nearly impossible to prove that the mag had LEO markings to begin with?
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no, since ALL c-mags, have serial numbers! This would be easier to prove it was mfr'd after the ban due to the design of the feed tower & feed tower clamp. Having this, is along the same lines as having a gun with the serial #'s files off. Altering one is also considered, sort of a re-manufacture, and it is also illeagle to manufacture NEW high-cap's for civilians. Beta Co. will also not touch one of these altered mags. You can not sell it, can not trade it, can not get caught using it... just plain NOT worth loosing all your legal stuff. Dealers who are authorized C-Mag resellers, caught selling altered C-Mags, will loose the reseller status, and face possible prosicution. Dealers for Beta Co. have to sign a contract, that they will NOT sell POST-BAN or altered C-Mags, to civilians, for risk of loosing there FFL. (Since Beta Co. keeps a copy of the dealers FFL on file)
Link Posted: 2/21/2003 9:08:15 PM EST
Has Beta C always put serial numbers on their magazines? Even way back when? Preban days? TIA
Link Posted: 2/23/2003 9:26:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2003 9:28:34 AM EST by slyguy2000]
yes, all c-mag's have serial #'s. My current one is from a "REALLY OLD" law enforcement stock, and it has a SN on both drums and on the feed tower too.
Link Posted: 2/25/2003 3:43:31 AM EST
Are you sure your not confusing the 'NSN' part(s) number for a serial # ???
Link Posted: 3/7/2003 1:00:24 PM EST
All issues aside from this, if the thing was $350 bucks or so, would anyone out here buy one? The damn thing looks legit to me, and I have had my share of $700 to $800 Beta's.
Link Posted: 3/10/2003 8:45:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By osprey21: Are you sure your not confusing the 'NSN' part(s) number for a serial # ???
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ALL BetaCo. C-Mag systems come with a serial #
Link Posted: 3/10/2003 9:42:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2003 9:43:06 AM EST by slyguy2000]
Originally Posted By jayjay: All issues aside from this, if the thing was $350 bucks or so, would anyone out here buy one? The damn thing looks legit to me, and I have had my share of $700 to $800 Beta's.
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for the $300-$400 you would save (if that at all, since they are trying to pawn them off as PREBAN, the price tag reflects that too)... Is it worth your freedom? and the loss of all your toys?
Link Posted: 3/25/2003 10:25:39 PM EST
thanks for the heads-up!
Link Posted: 4/17/2003 4:28:56 PM EST
Sly , great report, It's people like you who truely want to preserve our rights to have stuff like this, ANd without you reporting this, I think alot more people might be scammed by this A++++++++++ Thumbs Up to you
Link Posted: 4/17/2003 6:03:59 PM EST
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Information is everything. ps. I have not had a chance to post my new pics of the "REAL" preban. They will be going up this weekend. (WOOHOO! My 100'th POST!)
Link Posted: 4/19/2003 6:06:07 AM EST
Here are pics of a real Preban betamag from Ruben Mendiola: [img]http://images.snapfish.com/3373992%3B23232%7Ffp67%3Dot%3E2328%3D85%3A%3D­884%3Dxroqdf%3E2323389824575ot1lsi[/img] [img]http://images.snapfish.com/3373992%3B23232%7Ffp6%3A%3Dot%3E2328%3D85%3A%­3D884%3Dxroqdf%3E2323389824578ot1lsi[/img]
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 2:56:47 AM EST
My Beta looks like that , different serial #'s ,correct straps on feed tower, but I don't have the those numbers and letters on top of the drum , what's with those large #'s ??
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 3:01:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By faldoc: Here are pics of a real Preban betamag from Ruben Mendiola: [url]http://images.snapfish.com/3373992%3B23232%7Ffp67%3Dot%3E2328%3D85%3A%3D­884%3Dxroqdf%3E2323389824575ot1lsi[/url] [url]http://images.snapfish.com/3373992%3B23232%7Ffp6%3A%3Dot%3E2328%3D85%3A%­3D884%3Dxroqdf%3E2323389824578ot1lsi[/url]
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Mine doesn't have the NSN numbers either but otherwise looks identical.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 3:24:32 AM EST
do you have to have the NSN #'s ????
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 6:41:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 6:44:44 PM EST by slyguy2000]
No, NSN#'s are only on the ones that were military versions. Police versions did not have the NSN number. ALL C-Mags have serial #'s on the bottom of the drums. like this... [img]http://hudson.macdirect.com/images/beta1.jpg[/img] [img]http://hudson.macdirect.com/images/beta2.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 7:13:24 AM EST
For all of those who do not know what the NSN marking is, it is the "National Stock Number" used by the military. This allows the military to easily order parts by referring to the NSN in databases and such.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 8:32:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By whavens2w2: For all of those who do not know what the NSN marking is, it is the "National Stock Number" used by the military. This allows the military to easily order parts by referring to the NSN in databases and such.
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Only Military Models have the NSN numbers, all Law Enformement versions do not have the NSN number... Thanks for the info whavens2w2!
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 6:57:01 PM EST
This is my first post here in the mag section. Hope this helps! I've seen the backs of LE mags that have been sanded off too. Its easily done with fine-grit sandpaper. If you don't know what to look for, you would never know. My reconditioned came with this on the back of the owner's manual: [img]http://www.boomspeed.com/kisara/KisaraBetamag.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 1:14:36 PM EST
My mag has the "y" clip, but only one serial#. What's up with that?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:18:19 PM EST
So the US military actually uses or has used these?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:32:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By jsintek: My mag has the "y" clip, but only one serial#. What's up with that?
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There should be a serial # on each drum... not including the military NSN number (if it has a nsn number)
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:34:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By YoungOne21: So the US military actually uses or has used these?
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yes! actively using these... they are used on the M16, SAW, and MP5's
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 5:49:22 AM EST
Anybody have pictures of a Restricted/LEO magazine? Craig
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 8:03:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By steelhead: Anybody have pictures of a Restricted/LEO magazine? Craig
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the bracket and chassis looks like the pictures in the 1st post on this thread, except the "RESTRICTED - Military and Law Enforcement Use Only" and the serial numbers have been sanded off. I do not have pictures of the "actual" wording.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 5:35:10 AM EST
Who cares anyway? I know of no one hat has been busted. Cops could care less anyway, I see LE only stuff at shows being sold openly all the time.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 8:11:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By sobekra70: Who cares anyway? I know of no one hat has been busted. Cops could care less anyway, I see LE only stuff at shows being sold openly all the time.
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I don't know about you, but I have a lot of time, sweat, and money tied up in my collection, and I would hate to see it melted down due to a lousey illegal magazine (not to mention it carries a jail time penalty too). Say what you want, I operate within the guidelines of the law, I may not like all of the laws, but I respect them, and in return, the law must respect me. I can not make anyone do anything, I am simply here to provide information to help people, who want to operate within the law.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 2:40:14 PM EST
I tell you what a scam is. Our government passes unconstitutional laws and we follow them. If you are so damn afraid that the gun Gestapo will kick down your door cus you have an "illegal mag" then what are you going to do when they outlaw AR-15's? Give up your gun for the good of the country, help the authorities. Imagine where the civil rights movement would have been without civil disobedience, I am not condoning violent action but don’t give up what is yours. Remember what Trench Coxe said "Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier are the birth-right of an American ", so you have a right to own that mag pre ban or not. Your right to keep and bear is given by god and can only be removed by him. And those same guys who are chasing the patriot who sanded off those silly markings will probably be chasing us in the near future once Congress bans all semiautomatic weapons. So help out the SS now, cus they got what it takes to get what you got and turn in your neighbors too. Cus soon you will be the outlaw, but it's for the good of the country ;)
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 9:26:56 PM EST
And even if its a post ban that looks pre ban most cops dont know the difference, hell I had to pull out my serial# list to educate my buddy(police officer) on assualt weapons. And he told me honestly he didnt give a fuck if your ar15 was post or pre ban just as long as it is no involved in a crime. he said they dont have time to be "collapsable stock pre or post ban mag police" FREE
Originally Posted By slyguy2000:
Originally Posted By sobekra70: Who cares anyway? I know of no one hat has been busted. Cops could care less anyway, I see LE only stuff at shows being sold openly all the time.
View Quote
I don't know about you, but I have a lot of time, sweat, and money tied up in my collection, and I would hate to see it melted down due to a lousey illegal magazine (not to mention it carries a jail time penalty too). Say what you want, I operate within the guidelines of the law, I may not like all of the laws, but I respect them, and in return, the law must respect me. I can not make anyone do anything, I am simply here to provide information to help people, who want to operate within the law.
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Link Posted: 9/15/2003 3:27:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26: I tell you what a scam is. Our government passes unconstitutional laws and we follow them. If you are so damn afraid that the gun Gestapo will kick down your door cus you have an "illegal mag" then what are you going to do when they outlaw AR-15's? Give up your gun for the good of the country, help the authorities. Imagine where the civil rights movement would have been without civil disobedience, I am not condoning violent action but don’t give up what is yours. Remember what Trench Coxe said "Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier are the birth-right of an American ", so you have a right to own that mag pre ban or not. Your right to keep and bear is given by god and can only be removed by him. And those same guys who are chasing the patriot who sanded off those silly markings will probably be chasing us in the near future once Congress bans all semiautomatic weapons. So help out the SS now, cus they got what it takes to get what you got and turn in your neighbors too. Cus soon you will be the outlaw, but it's for the good of the country ;)
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Bravo!!! We say things like "They'll never get MY gun!" as we go to the range with our neutered post-ban rifles and ten round magazines. We have slogans like "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand?", when in reality it is "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't WE understand?" If we never take a stand then we've already lost. At what point do we draw the line? When they come for our flintlocks? Where would we be today if the founders of our country had said "Not me! It's not worth going to jail for!"? God help this country and all it's sheeple.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 6:40:44 PM EST
do as you will, I am only here to inform... not enforce... :o)
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 4:48:55 PM EST
What about this one? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12028301 Is this one a stolen one with remove markings or just a post ban that has had the serials and markings removed with the bottom improved brace also scraped?
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 3:12:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2003 5:53:12 PM EST by slyguy2000]
Originally Posted By billybeer: What about this one? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12028301 Is this one a stolen one with remove markings or just a post ban that has had the serials and markings removed with the bottom improved brace also scraped?
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The serial numbers are small, I can not tell from that picture. You can always ask the seller for the 2 numbers before buying. if you question the "preban" status of a CMAG, get, the 2 serial numbers from the drums, and email them to KMILLER@BETACO.COM and Kevin, can get you the history on the magazine.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 4:50:42 PM EST
At some point we (gun owners) have to realize that the more we shoot our mouths off about not following the laws, the more we play into the hands of every jerk that wants to take all our guns away. I completely agree that the "assault weapon ban" is a stupid unconstitutional law that should (and hopefully will) sunset in 11 months (but who's counting). I also completely agree with slyguy's decision to post his information on the thread. We need to follow the law until we can get it to sunset. In the coming months the gun grabbers will be looking through these sites trying to find quotes to further their cause and ""And those same guys who are chasing the patriot who sanded off those silly markings will probably be chasing us in the near future once Congress bans all semiautomatic weapons. So help out the SS now, cus they got what it takes to get what you got and turn in your neighbors too. Cus soon you will be the outlaw, but it's for the good of the country ;) "" Is not the best quote for a liberal lobbyist to get a hold of when the debate comes up in the media. Calling a person who commits a felony a patriot is an insult to those of us who actually use our system to try and forward our causes. We need to keep cool, if thigs go as planned, they won't even be able to bring that damn law back up for a debate and the thing will be dead by this time next year, but if the media gets a hair accross their ass and can find enough of these stellar quotes to put pressure on the politicians, then we may be in for a long fight. When this law expires I will personally stand to lose a lot of money when the stock I have bought at inflated prices goes back to realistic levels, but damn it I'll be out celebrating louder than most of the people in here. Just keep cool, we are all in this together.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 3:52:02 AM EST
Is there anyway we can get Beta C to post their serial numbers for clarification on the pre-ban issue. I have the opportunity to get one for a really good price, I just need to make sure it's good to go. Anyone willing to help me out (Military) and make a call from the states, directly to Beta C. I will call from Germany, but since the time zones are different, it's difficult for me to get time during my work schedule. Thanks
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 5:23:45 AM EST
Why would you bother using a C-Mag on a SAW when you can just use belted rounds ? From what i heard, the SAW's chewed up the feed lips on standard M-16 mag's anyway so wouldnt this happen also ?
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 8:13:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26: I tell you what a scam is. Our government passes unconstitutional laws and we follow them. If you are so damn afraid that the gun Gestapo will kick down your door cus you have an "illegal mag" then what are you going to do when they outlaw AR-15's? Give up your gun for the good of the country, help the authorities. Imagine where the civil rights movement would have been without civil disobedience, I am not condoning violent action but don’t give up what is yours. Remember what Trench Coxe said "Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier are the birth-right of an American ", so you have a right to own that mag pre ban or not. Your right to keep and bear is given by god and can only be removed by him. And those same guys who are chasing the patriot who sanded off those silly markings will probably be chasing us in the near future once Congress bans all semiautomatic weapons. So help out the SS now, cus they got what it takes to get what you got and turn in your neighbors too. Cus soon you will be the outlaw, but it's for the good of the country ;)
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Spoken like a true fan of non-consensual male prison rape.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:12:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2003 5:37:50 AM EST by slyguy2000]
Originally Posted By Michael_Dekmetzian: Why would you bother using a C-Mag on a SAW when you can just use belted rounds ? From what i heard, the SAW's chewed up the feed lips on standard M-16 mag's anyway so wouldnt this happen also ?
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that is why the feed towers are replaceable... and using belted rounds require 2 people to transport the weapon (one to carry the gun, and the other to hold the belts) Beta mags are more compact and easier to transport.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 2:56:42 PM EST
Exactly how big is a C-Mag ? I also dont buy the whole needing 2 people to carry the SAW plus rounds, i've carried 600rds of belt before, easily. How many of these would a gunner carry ? Thanks for the response :)
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:09:41 AM EST
this is the catch 22 of the black rifle owners regarding the law in a nutshell. some politician passes a law to ban evil guns and features without a basis in fact except that it will make some sheep feel good. if we follow the law and turn in whatever they are demanding be illegal now, we are surrendering our rights. however if we refuse to comply or say anything untoward then that is the very reason why to take away guns from the "gunnuts" since they are lawbreakers. so our reaction is to put our trust in the courts and politicians and comply with whatever law they give us next. in some places like chicago and wash dc weve complied so well that the second amndt doesnt even apply there anymore its been legitimately regulated away as it will be further and further in this country unless the courts stand by us. that is a iffy proposition considering the past history of the courts and the second amdnt.they have a long history of recognizing reasonable restrictions.of course one persons reasonable is anothers restriction and we gun owners are now in the same position as blacks were in the south prior to civil rights patiently waiting to be able to get a fair hearing and perhaps a seat on the bus.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:02:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 12:02:56 PM EST by KogaShuko]
That is why the feed towers are replaceable... and using belted rounds require 2 people to transport the weapon (one to carry the gun, and the other to hold the belts) Beta mags are more compact and easier to transport.
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Damn, I wish that was true in my worls. Everytime I had to carry the bastard I had to carry all the extra belt drums myself.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:15:23 PM EST
Just remember guys the seven day waiting period as well as the national weapons on school zones laws were declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. The AW Ban has never been tested. The school zone one was taken away because it was based on the interstate commerse clause and they felt there was no need for the thing since all 50 states had laws limiting weapon access to school zones. As far as the national waiting period, this was removed because they felt it violated the second amendment. I believe the only reason the AW ban has never been pulled is because it has never gone that far. Since most police dont check for this unless someone has used it in the commission of a crime then they make few arrests that are based only on the AW ban. Remember in order for the law to go to the supreme court there must be a standing to sue. Therefor someone that is being charged for this must go through the entire appeals process and not get let off any of the charges. As for the question. Do I follow the law, yes. Do I agree with it, no. I would rather see harsher penalties for use of assualt weapons in violent crimes then bans. This way it doesnt effect law abiding citizens and people who use them for sport. I would also like to see a national level CCW imposed soon so that things can become more consistant. Several states like Va are on the right track with reciprical agreements and preemption laws but states like new york almost need higher level intervention. I feel angry that my CCW will not work when I enter a state like NY that has one of the highest crime rates in the contry.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 6:34:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 6:35:01 PM EST by GunnedUp]
Here is a ? for you guys: How many people, especially LEO's can spot a pre ban barrel on a post-ban lower, given you change the barrels on the upper to accommedate for the takedown pins?
If I missed any closer, I would have hit it
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Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:07:45 AM EST
This is my first post on this forum and I truly enjoy reading everyones comments.The wealth of info here is amazing. Now for my 2cents. I agree with many about our gun laws being ridiculous. I ask you this, Assault weapons are illegal in the state of commiefornia unless you register them when told you to or some crap like that. How many honest people still have these weapons? many I would say, and this law has made them criminals. In the laws and sheeps eyes anyway. I have talked to many in law enforcement that have said if you are not out committing crimes you have nothing to worry about. I heard a real interesting thing the other day that really hits home with this whole dumming down of america. Some politicians want to try and pass a law that would make it illegal for anyone under 18 to be operating a motorvehicle after 10pm. I say that with all the laws facing people under the age of 21 nowdays, we pass a law that says people under 21 may not join the military and fight for our country. That would get the governments attention. I could drive a many million dollar tank in combat but god forbid I get caught driving after 10pm or having a beer if I was 18. So I thank those that are not mindless sheep for standing up for what you think is right for one day you might have to fight for those beliefs and it's comforting to know you won't be alone. Without all these sheeps the wolves would starve, even the hippies would not want that to happen.lol
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:49:22 PM EST
Just out of curiosity, how much are they (pre-bans) going for now?
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