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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/8/2006 11:29:59 AM EDT
I have seen so many places offering SS109/M855 but I was wondering which is the best place to buy from and who to stay away from? Are there any countrys of origin or lots/brands to also shy away from?
Thanks,
Mike
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:43:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 12:48:31 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I have seen so many places offering SS109/M855 but I was wondering which is the best place to buy from and who to stay away from? Are there any countrys of origin or lots/brands to also shy away from?
Thanks,
Mike




Avoid XM855PD, it comes lose-packed in plastic bags, inside a cardboard box. The box would be marked "For Training Use Only".

There will be people who will attempt to sell you XM855PD as real M855 or XM855... Don't fall for it, XM855PD comes lose-packed in plastic bags, real M855 or XM855 will come packaged nicely, like regular ammo, and will NEVER, EVER be lose-packed.

Some people shoot XM855PD for plinking, personally, I avoid the stuff at all costs. If you do buy some just for putting holes in paper, make sure you check every round in great detail before loading it in a magazine. Each bag of PD ammo is going to have a bunch of badly dented rounds, don't shoot those. You may also find more serious problems. NEVER, EVER buy XM855PD ammo for SHTF/Storage or any situation where your life my depend on it.

I avoid any non-American ammo, the only exception to this is the Israeli IMI ammo, which is good stuff. In the near future we may see some nice brass cased ammo made in Serbia marketed by Wolf... That ammo would probably be trustworthy too. Otherwise, my rule is to just avoid any non-American made 'surplus' M855/SS109 ammo.

The ADCOM surplus is a good example, it's currently sold at AIM surplus, among other places. It's UAE surplus ammo [UAE = Small Arab nation in the middle east]. This ammunition has had some serious issues... It might be OK for plinking, but I'd never use it for anything else.

Another example: The UK made SS109... Good ammo, except that it's underpowered [less powder than it should have]. The reason for this is the standard issue rifle in the UK is the L85/SA-80... The SA-80 has had LOTS of problems and at some point the UK started under-powering their ammo to help fix these issues. It's not going to hurt you to shoot it, but it's a lot less powerful than real SS109, and may not cycle carbines.

So, as I said, a good general rule is just to avoid anything not US or Israeli made.

A good source for real M855 [not the XM855 factory seconds stuff] is Ammoman:
https://www.ammoman.com/webstore_223.htm


The first two items listed on that page are real M855, the fourth item is XM855PD... I'd suggest buying as much of the real M855 as you can, because it isn't going to be around very long [limited supply, we're lucky to get this much].

If you want cheaper plinking ammo [ammo to shoot at the range, rather than save for SHTF], a company called Ultramax makes decent reloads of M855. I haven't seen that stuff for sale online lately, but a lot of gunstores carry it. If I recall it's once-fired Lake City brass, loaded to 5.56mm pressure with a 62 grain M855 bullet, it has the oh-so-important green tip on it, too. Good stuff for just punching holes in paper.

That's just my advice, take it or leave it, YMMV, objects in mirror or closer than they appear.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:57:25 PM EDT
Murdock,
Hey thanks I did check that and I'm going to order up a bunch but I have 1 question what is the difference between the first 3 M855's?
Thanks,
Mike
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:00:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:

If you want cheaper plinking ammo [ammo to shoot at the range, rather than save for SHTF], a company called Ultramax makes decent reloads of M855. I haven't seen that stuff for sale online lately, but a lot of gunstores carry it. If I recall it's once-fired Lake City brass, loaded to 5.56mm pressure with a 62 grain M855 bullet, it has the oh-so-important green tip on it, too. Good stuff for just punching holes in paper.

That's just my advice, take it or leave it, YMMV, objects in mirror or closer than they appear.



You stay away from XM-855PD, but recommend Ultramax?

WTF?

Ultramax has a lot of problems. Just use the search function to see what I am talking about.
Perosonally, I stay far, far away from any Ultramax ammo.

I have bought almost 2000 rds of XM-855PD, and as long as you check it before you shoot it, its fine. I haven't had any issue with any of it, and it gets reasonable accuracy for a steel cored round.
I buy it because its cheap, milspec, and I reload the brass. Its great plinking ammo.

For SHTF get Mk 262, TAP, or XM-193/Q3131/Q3131A. M-855 isn't real great in the termanial ballistics, and for penetration It only really has an advantage over XM-193 past 2-300 yards.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:38:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 3:31:45 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By mstennes:
Murdock,
Hey thanks I did check that and I'm going to order up a bunch but I have 1 question what is the difference between the first 3 M855's?
Thanks,
Mike



First one is real M855 and comes in ammo cans from factory.

Second one is real M855 and comes in a box, from factory.

Third is XM855PD.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:50:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Krazny13:

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:

If you want cheaper plinking ammo [ammo to shoot at the range, rather than save for SHTF], a company called Ultramax makes decent reloads of M855. I haven't seen that stuff for sale online lately, but a lot of gunstores carry it. If I recall it's once-fired Lake City brass, loaded to 5.56mm pressure with a 62 grain M855 bullet, it has the oh-so-important green tip on it, too. Good stuff for just punching holes in paper.

That's just my advice, take it or leave it, YMMV, objects in mirror or closer than they appear.



You stay away from XM-855PD, but recommend Ultramax?

WTF?

Ultramax has a lot of problems. Just use the search function to see what I am talking about.
Perosonally, I stay far, far away from any Ultramax ammo.



Never had a problem with it.



I have bought almost 2000 rds of XM-855PD, and as long as you check it before you shoot it, its fine. I haven't had any issue with any of it, and it gets reasonable accuracy for a steel cored round.


The reason I don't reccomend XM855PD to newbies is because many of them don't know how or are too ADD to check each round.

Out of the box, you're far less likely to get a bad round with ultra-max reloads than XM855PD.

Sure, if you sort through the rounds, the PD is better, but most newbies aren't up to that.



I buy it because its cheap, milspec, and I reload the brass. Its great plinking ammo.


This guy probably doesn't reload, yet.



For SHTF get Mk 262, TAP,



Mk262 is impossible to find, unless you want blem batches that you'll have to hand check, and never be quite sure of.

TAP costs almost a dollar a round in some cases. Lots of folks don't have the money for a single combat load of TAP.


or XM-193/Q3131/Q3131A.


Good luck finding XM193 now.

Q3131 is also hard to find, and the new loads have had some problems.

Q3131A is the best. Doesn't exist anymore, none has been imported for almost a year.



M-855 isn't real great in the termanial ballistics, and for penetration It only really has an advantage over XM-193 past 2-300 yards.


We all know that, but where else are you going to find mil-spec loads that will go bang every time, in bulk, for a decent price?

I'll take this M855 over a bad lot of Q3131 anyday.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:39:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 5:40:20 PM EDT by Krazny13]

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
Never had a problem with it.



Lots of others on this board have.




The reason I don't reccomend XM855PD to newbies is because many of them don't know how or are too ADD to check each round.



You need to inspect every round from any manufacturer in every loading before you fire it.



Out of the box, you're far less likely to get a bad round with ultra-max reloads than XM855PD.



I have a hard time believing that from what I have heard and seen at the range.


Sure, if you sort through the rounds, the PD is better, but most newbies aren't up to that.


Gotta put them in mags sometime. And most newbs could probably figure out to not shoot the ones with large dents, backwards loaded bullets, etc.





This guy probably doesn't reload, yet.



Neither did I until recently. I sold my LC brass to those that did tho.




Mk262 is impossible to find, unless you want blem batches that you'll have to hand check, and never be quite sure of.

TAP costs almost a dollar a round in some cases. Lots of folks don't have the money for a single combat load of TAP.



Yea, but both are much better than XM-855 for self defence.



Good luck finding XM193 now.

Q3131 is also hard to find, and the new loads have had some problems.

Q3131A is the best. Doesn't exist anymore, none has been imported for almost a year.



You can find any of those a lot easier than M-855. And its cheaper. ($0.22/rd for Q3131 vs $0.30+ for M-855) My local sporting goods store has Q3131 in stock and plans on carrying it for the forseeable future.



We all know that, but where else are you going to find mil-spec loads that will go bang every time, in bulk, for a decent price?



I wouldn't call Ultramax 'mil spec'. XM-193PD and XM-855PD are milspec, and as long as you check them, they are just as good as anything else. I'd take them




I'll take this M855 over a bad lot of Q3131 anyday.



Not all lots are bad. Infact, there weren't that many bad lots of Q3131. And I test ammo before I stock up on it. If it won't work, I don't buy it. Q3131 works well for me, and many others here.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 5:44:38 PM EDT
I know I'm a FNG here but up untill about 12 years ago I used to shoot all the time, and yes I used to reload, I have learned how to inspect I even had a mojor explosion once when I did not check a cannular crip good enough once and had the bullet stuffed down inside the case on loading than proceed to explode taking the rest of the rounds in the clip also. Ruined the upper reciever, barrel, clip, bolt and bolt carrier, spendy lesson but a lesson well learned and not to be forgotten. I still have my Dillion reloader setup for .223. On e of the reasons I quit reloading was time and the price of cheap ball ammo. Now I have more time and I'm ready to to get back into it. I probably wont reload for a while as its not that bad to buy ammo and save time right now. I do plan on getting back into that also. When I ran out of time M855 was just starting to hit the shelves and was pretty dang spendy. The reason I'm going heavier is Most of the new rifles I'm building up are 1-7 twist so I figured I'd get the Blackhills for storge and other but shoot up the 62 grain green tip as plinking. Just to date me a little when I took time off to raise the family and get my business established all there was, was Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Armalite and Eagle Arms. Now look at it, heck mid lengths were still just a fantasy. Anyway thanks for the info and if the cheap is OK as long as you check it out first then what the heck. What is the cullage rate on that stuff? Does anyone know the cullage of the Blackhills blems? The reason I like the blem idea is that it is loaded to 5.56 mil speck pressure instead of .223 commerical. Also something else in this litigus world we live in Blackhills couldnt or wouldnt sell something that could come back in a lawsuit. I do not beleave in stupid lawsuits and dislike people trying to use that method as a way to get rich, but never the less it does make me feel easier about buying blems as it would not be overly or mildly unsafe.
Thanks,
Mike
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:32:33 PM EDT
Last I checked..

The only boxed M855 was the XM855 load..

And theres no way I'd rely on it.

1st tier ammo only for defence.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:53:15 PM EDT
I buy XM855PD all the time, I have never had a bad round come from any of the boxes I have bought


KY Imports has a good price on it right now.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:28:52 AM EDT
I am surprised no one sent mstennes to the Ammo Oracle for some answers.

I have shot XM193PD AFTER inspecting each and every single round (reject rate is about 7%, usually due to dents and case neck damage). For plinking, Wolf works fine in my 16" middie. Silver Bear did not work for me - the steel in the cartridge case rim was too soft for my extractor giving me about 15% FTEx.

I would be very interested to get truthful answers from anyone selling REAL M855 ammunition as to exactly where and how they got it. Government contracts do not allow resale of M855 -- it ALL goes to the Government. M855/M193 = Government accepted ammunition. QC/lot rejects, labeled XM855, XM855PD, XM193 and XM193PD, can be resold on the commercial market.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:27:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathon:
Last I checked..

The only boxed M855 was the XM855 load..



I believe there's still some IMI M855 around somewhere. Saw it in SGN or something.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:14:21 PM EDT
Don't Forget this

RADWAY GREEN

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:23:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:13:08 PM EDT by AROKIE]

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I have seen so many places offering SS109/M855 but I was wondering which is the best place to buy from and who to stay away from? Are there any countrys of origin or lots/brands to also shy away from?
Thanks,
Mike




Avoid XM855PD, it comes lose-packed in plastic bags, inside a cardboard box. The box would be marked "For Training Use Only".

There will be people who will attempt to sell you XM855PD as real M855 or XM855... Don't fall for it, XM855PD comes lose-packed in plastic bags, real M855 or XM855 will come packaged nicely, like regular ammo, and will NEVER, EVER be lose-packed.

Some people shoot XM855PD for plinking, personally, I avoid the stuff at all costs. If you do buy some just for putting holes in paper, make sure you check every round in great detail before loading it in a magazine. Each bag of PD ammo is going to have a bunch of badly dented rounds, don't shoot those. You may also find more serious problems. NEVER, EVER buy XM855PD ammo for SHTF/Storage or any situation where your life my depend on it.

I avoid any non-American ammo, the only exception to this is the Israeli IMI ammo, which is good stuff. In the near future we may see some nice brass cased ammo made in Serbia marketed by Wolf... That ammo would probably be trustworthy too. Otherwise, my rule is to just avoid any non-American made 'surplus' M855/SS109 ammo.

The ADCOM surplus is a good example, it's currently sold at AIM surplus, among other places. It's UAE surplus ammo [UAE = Small Arab nation in the middle east]. This ammunition has had some serious issues... It might be OK for plinking, but I'd never use it for anything else.

Another example: The UK made SS109... Good ammo, except that it's underpowered [less powder than it should have]. The reason for this is the standard issue rifle in the UK is the L85/SA-80... The SA-80 has had LOTS of problems and at some point the UK started under-powering their ammo to help fix these issues. It's not going to hurt you to shoot it, but it's a lot less powerful than real SS109, and may not cycle carbines.

So, as I said, a good general rule is just to avoid anything not US or Israeli made.

A good source for real M855 [not the XM855 factory seconds stuff] is Ammoman:
https://www.ammoman.com/webstore_223.htm


The first two items listed on that page are real M855, the fourth item is XM855PD... I'd suggest buying as much of the real M855 as you can, because it isn't going to be around very long [limited supply, we're lucky to get this much].

If you want cheaper plinking ammo [ammo to shoot at the range, rather than save for SHTF], a company called Ultramax makes decent reloads of M855. I haven't seen that stuff for sale online lately, but a lot of gunstores carry it. If I recall it's once-fired Lake City brass, loaded to 5.56mm pressure with a 62 grain M855 bullet, it has the oh-so-important green tip on it, too. Good stuff for just punching holes in paper.

That's just my advice, take it or leave it, YMMV, objects in mirror or closer than they appear.



MURDOCK DO NOT GIVE OUT FALSE INFO WITH OUT DOING ALITTLE RESEARCH
several people here have chrono'ed this stuff and say it is up to par with nato specs.
also Widners reloading supply did some chrono results on this ammo take a look.

www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=6674

AN AFTERNOON OF TESTING

December 30th, 2005

What a beautiful day in East Tenneessee. I took my COLT MATCH HBAR (Mod 6601, 20") to the farm with a chrono and 150 Rds of Radway Green '92 headstamp. I chronographed the first 10 rounds from a cold gun and the results in FPS are as follows:

3075, 3091, 3114, 3033, 3077, 3069, 3089, 3050, 3107, 3069

Next, I fired 130 rounds at various speeds from slow fire to as fast as possible. About 20 minutes of shooting. Then, with the gun hot, I chronographed the last ten rounds and the results in FPS are as follows:

3136, 3136, 3084, 3058, 3052, 3108, 3071, 3044, 3082, 3086

There were no misfires, hangfires, FTE, FTF, or any other problem with the ammo. Every shot was flawless. THIS AMMO IS DEFINITELY POWERED UP TO NATO SPECS. and is the best deal going in 223 banging ammo, especially considering that Wincheseter and ATK are going to have a 6% increase in ammo in January 2006 AND another 6% increase on April 1, 2006. Save your brass boys, we are all going to be reloading considering the prices that are coming for new ammo.

The m855pd is not as bad as the m193pd. you are blowing that way out of proportion. there is nothing wrong with the m855pd, just go through them normally and through out any bad ones. I think you are going off of too much of what you hear not what you see murdock.






and do not recommend ultramax!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only to your enemys

also murdock the blems batches of mk262 you have totally wrong, do a search here onthe mk262 and you will see the onwer of black hills commented on his"blems" you will be surprised. hand pick or searching through them is not nessacery.

alos im not sure where you are having trouble finding the m193?? i see it all over even on the auction boards, even the mk262 is available you just need to know where to look, and the info you say about the new q3131 having probs? please post your facts on this, i havnt 'heard" these rumors yet.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:17:25 AM EDT
for ammo that you do not have to sort thru and is 100% non reject. Look at imi m855 form ky imports or other venders. The price reflects the fact that you are getting perfect ammo.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:22:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
for ammo that you do not have to sort thru and is 100% non reject. Look at imi m855 form ky imports or other venders. The price reflects the fact that you are getting perfect ammo.



whats wrong with the new winchester m855? or the lake city m855 from ammoman? its all new inthe box and on strippers and there hasnt been any probswith this stuff...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:52:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By djc119:

Originally Posted By jonathon:
Last I checked..

The only boxed M855 was the XM855 load..



I believe there's still some IMI M855 around somewhere. Saw it in SGN or something.



I think KY Imports still has Israeli IMI M855. But its not cheap, if I remember right its $289 a case. Ammoman has M855, no X or PD, the real thing.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:55:53 AM EDT


I think KY Imports still has Israeli IMI M855. But its not cheap, if I remember right its $289 a case. Ammoman has M855, no X or PD, the real thing.



Out-of-Stock at KY Imports.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:47:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:25:24 PM EDT by zipper]
You the man
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:10:57 AM EDT
Zipper where else other than Fulton-Armory can I get M262?
Thanks.
Mike
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:05:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:13:39 PM EDT by AROKIE]
zipper i changed it, my bad .... ididnt mean for it to look like you guys said that.....im sorry
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:41:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
Zipper where else other than Fulton-Armory can I get M262?
Thanks.
Mike




Tried Ammoman??
Happy hunting
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:49:20 PM EDT
Murdock your info is still wrong, i just wanted to bring that up for everyone to see.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:07:26 PM EDT
How about this stuff guys? Its marked asSS109 M855.... Are they trying to pass it off as the real deal and how is the price for paper punchin'?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=140094
Thanks all,
Brent
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:46:20 PM EDT
Looks like XM855PD and they're neglecting to mention it. Notice how the 20 round items are "out of stock"?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:10:12 AM EDT
Just got an order for what I thought would be M855 and it turned out to be XM855PD - from Ammoman. FYI HTH
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:28:15 AM EDT
Some of you guys are up tight about ammo!

In 2000 I bought Santa Barbra SS109 head stamp 1993 Surplus ammo and Found out its the Best SS109/M855 out of my 2 Bushmasters! Beter than Win,IMI,LC,S&B etc

I still have about 2 bandos left! I BET YOUR RIFLE THAT THEY ALL GO BOOM

I bought some M855 off AMMOMAN ITS FINE!!!!

Ammo stored good should EASY last 40 years!
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:40:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I buy XM855PD all the time, I have never had a bad round come from any of the boxes I have bought


KY Imports has a good price on it right now.



Same here. I have shot thousands of rounds of it and never found a round I didn't feel comfortable to shoot. I check each round when I put it on strippers or load it in mags. I save my $$$$M855 in case I need it for real work.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:38:28 PM EDT
Well I guess this ammo thing is a flip of the coin. I just took delivery of 1,000 rds of XM855PD from Natchez. I thought it would come in smaller boxes..........but all 1,000 rds was dumped into one box.

The ammo was crap............... 45 rds couldn't even be loaded into a gun. Only about 1/3 of the ammo was "clean" meaning no dents [ I don't mean tiny dings ] . I was horrified $206 delivered and all I got was something that could barely be used for plinking. Doubt any accuracy could be gotten with the hundreds of dented necks where you would expect a good gas seal.

Lastly....... most of the ammo was stamped 01............ Man, the ammo starts out being 5 years old before I get hold of it, no wonder all the damage.

NEVER again will I buy PD ammo that is bulked packed.......it isn't worth the $50 saved to ME.

JF.
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