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Posted: 12/10/2002 8:19:05 PM EDT
[#1]
THERE ARE THREE CHOICES:
MILITARY ISSUE MOUNT: CAN'T GET COMMERCIALLY AND IS NOT AS GOOD AS EITHER OF THE FOLLOWING TWO. CAN'T USE A BUIS WITH THIS VERSION. P.R.I. M69 MOUNT: HAS ARMS THROW LEVER BASE FOR EASY OFF/ON. VERY STOUT. MOUNT USES THE THREADED HOLE FOR THE ADAPTER ARM. IF YOU USE THIS MOUNT, YOU HAVE TO REMOVE YOUR BUIS, SINCE THE M69 TAKES UP SO MUCH REAL ESTATE. GG&G QUICK DETACH NIGHT VISION MOUNT: UTILIZES A 180 DEGREE ROTARY LEVER TO REMOVE THE NVD FROM THE WEAPON. THIS MOUNT HAS A RING MUCH LIKE A SCOPE RING ALLOWING THE ADAPTER ARM TO REMAIN ON THE NVD AT ALL TIMES. THE RING IS BY NECESSITY FAIRLY NARROW, MAKING THIS NOT AS STOUT AS THE P.R.I. BUT IT DOES OFFER QUICK HEAD/HELMET MOUNT TO WEAPON TO HEAD/HELMET MOUNT POSSIBILITIES. ALSO, IT IS COMPATIBLE WITH MOST FOLDING BUIS OUT THERE. LUCKY FOR YOU I KNOW SOMEONE THAT STOCKS BOTH... WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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Posted: 12/11/2002 5:35:11 AM EDT
[#2]
Wes' comments on the three he mentions is spot-on. I'd add that the GG&G mount also locks the ring/PVS assembly into the base with a tiny little Aluminum tenon that wears/batters itself loose pretty quickly.
The military mount is pretty robust, and does a good job of keeping the PVS locked down. While it doesn't take more than maybe a minute to unscrew the mount from the PVS, you do have to have both the time and a tool to do it when you want to switch the PVS to a head mount or use it hand held witout the lump on the bottom. These do show up at the bigger gun shows from time to time. There's also a mount that ITT used to sell that's a lot like the military, but which nests the PVS in a "cup" of thick Aluminum to cover both sides and which incorporates a threaded camera adapter mount. Still a pain in the ass to switch, but that's the one I use most of the time as it protects the PVS better. The PVS and 6015 are popular enough now that somebody really needs to make a better mount for them that solves these issues. (ARMS, are you listening?) Pat |
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Posted: 12/11/2002 7:26:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Wes, as usual, the folks at MSTN come through again, as PaulE of MSTN had suggested the P.R.I. M69 as well. I might be, however, given your description, more interested in trading-off very stout for rapid detachability and BUIS retention such as the GG&G seems to offer.
I would really like to either physically inspect these rigs or view some photos of these mounts by themselves and as applied to the AR15 with AN/PVS-14 mounted in order to decide. Pat-Yates, I will try to look for info on the ITT mount as well, although your description sounds a lot like what the P.R.I. mount looks like? Will continue search... Thanks much both Wes and Pat-Yates. O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/11/2002 9:58:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Surfed a bit and found some pictures of the GG&G Tall QD Night Vision Mount on MSTN and the GG&G site. This mount looks like it would allow room for the ARMS 22M68/Aimpoint on the picc rail in fron of the NVD. However, both state the mount is for the ITT 6015/PVS14. Will this mount fit the Grumman (formerly Litton) AN/PVS-14?
O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/11/2002 10:00:32 AM EDT
[#5]
BTW, as of about eight weeks ago, I do not think Northrop Grumman owns Litton. If not, who is making the AN/PVS-14 besides ITT?
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Posted: 12/13/2002 3:45:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: BTW, as of about eight weeks ago, I do not think Northrop Grumman owns Litton. If not, who is making the AN/PVS-14 besides ITT? Litton still makes the PVS-14 among many others. Their website is: [url]www.littoneos.com[/url] |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 5:36:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Thanks Cardinal. Can anyone identify the NV mount featured in this photo: (I'm having trouble figuring out how to cut and paste a photo from a web-site, but here it goes...)
[img]http://www.specwargear.com/images/nightvision%20PVS14-5.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.specwargear.com/images/nightvision%20PVS14-2.jpg[/img] O'DubhGhaill [edited to add: It worked! If this is the AN/PVS-14, then I could use my ARMS 22M68 mounted Aimpoint CompM2 right in front of it on the rail. The GG&G mount looks like it provides enough room as well. [url]http://www.gggaz.com/products/itt_6015pvs14_mount.php[/url] [img]ITT 6015/PVS14 Tall Q. D. Mount[/img] Why then, would there be a need to thrust the Aimpoint forward by 2.25" through the use of the cantilever mounts? |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 7:01:54 AM EDT
[#8]
YOU HAVE THE GG&G QD MOUNT PICTURED.
I HAD EXACTLY THE SAME QUESTION, INITIALLY. IF YOU CAN PUT THE AIMPOINT A FEW INCHES FORWARD WITH AN OFFSET MOUNT, YOU CAN "SEE AROUND" THE AIMPOINT AND TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF ITS 40 DEGREE FIELD OF VIEW. THE VIEW THROUGH THE AIMPOINT IS NOT QUITE AS BRIGHT AS THAT YOU SEE OTHERWISE, DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE LIGHT PASSING THROUGH THE AIMPOINT IS SOMEWHAT ATTENUATED. NOT AS BADLY AS WITH AN EOTECH, HOWEVER. EVEN A NEW PAIR OF CLEAR OAKLEYS, THE BEST QUALITY OUT THERE, IMO, ATTENUATES BRIGHTNESS USING AN NVD, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT NIGHT VISION BELONGS ON YOUR HEAD/HELMET MOST OF THE TIME. YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR NVD ON YOUR WEAPON AND THEN START POINTING THE GUN AT EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO SEE!!! WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 8:57:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:......THE AIMPOINT IS SOMEWHAT ATTENUATED. NOT AS BADLY AS WITH AN EOTECH, HOWEVER. Wes, please allow to me to respectfully disagree with you . In my experience the M552 , with its tubeless design , is far less intrusive than the M2 and the light is far less attenuated than with the Aimpoint red dot sight . Just my 0.2 Eurocents, ciao, PP out |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 2:06:48 PM EDT
[#10]
ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT NIGHT VISION BELONGS ON YOUR HEAD/HELMET MOST OF THE TIME. YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR NVD ON YOUR WEAPON ND THEN START POINTING THE GUN AT EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO SEE!!! This is the best/ideal way to setup your NVD: onto your helmet, and not on your weapon. |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 4:30:04 PM EDT
[#11]
The PRI PVS 14 mount is the best one and was picked issued in large quantities by the SOP MOD Comunity, because it is the most rugged and most versitile by far. The others I have used were not very stable or rugged enough for combat. It gives plenty of ajustment for all rear sights used with the 22m68 and works perfect with the #40 and is in service that way. A friendly tip, the PVS 14 and other monoculars work best if they are not in perfect alighnment with the aimpoint,it is best to have the monocular a little higher by about a 1/4" so you don't get tunnel vision and lose ambient light and or field of view. Ask any NV maker training personel. The PRI sight also attaches with the ARMS throw lever system that is on the 22M68, so that is another nice std. attachment benefit. You don't need a spacer with the 22M68 if you are on the SIR, but need a full spacer if you just go off the flat top.
Good Shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 5:28:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT NIGHT VISION BELONGS ON YOUR HEAD/HELMET MOST OF THE TIME. YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR NVD ON YOUR WEAPON ND THEN START POINTING THE GUN AT EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO SEE!!! This is the best/ideal way to setup your NVD: onto your helmet, and not on your weapon. Following the digression, I rarely, if ever, used NV on my weapon back in the 80's; our teams routinely utilized head-mounted units, almost exclusively for general observational use on patrol. However, Wes, on entry, with or without NV, "...POINTING THE GUN AT EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO SEE!!!" pretty much summed up our SOP. Be that as it may, I did not ask what was the best method for utilizing NV observation devices in general, but rather specifically: "What is the best mount for an AN/PVS-14: [i]NV device to be mounted on an AR15 picc rail tandem to an Aimpoint CompM2, also mounted on rail with an ARMS 22M68 with full spacer?[/i] Is the PRI-PVS 14 the only option? If so, how is that rig? How much space between the NV front lens and Aimpoint rear is acceptable...; If this is the AN/PVS-14, then I could use my ARMS 22M68 mounted Aimpoint CompM2 right in front of it on the rail. The GG&G mount looks like it provides enough room as well. Why then, would there be a need to thrust the Aimpoint forward by 2.25" through the use of the cantilever mounts?" Again, thanks Wes (and others), for your previous mount descriptions and subsequent comments on fields of view, lighting, and attenuation factors -- this is all exactly along the lines of information I'm looking for. Somehow, it seems, I'm going to have to get some hands-on with the actual device and various mounts. O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 5:38:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Excellent info, 3rdtk; I posted previous before I read this.
Are you saying that a rail mounted PRI with full spacer can be used with a BUIS such as the ARMS 40? What kind of eye relief is available with the PRI? Thanks in advance. O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 6:06:12 PM EDT
[#14]
The PRI Monocular doesn't use spacers, it has an L shape that allows the optic to be raised or lowed to the desired ht. and goes over the #40 without a problem, and the #22M69 stays at the orig. daytime ht. no spacer if coming off the top of the SIR. If you are coming off the receiver then you need a spacer for the #22M68, but not with the PRI PVS-14 mount.
Head mounted gogles are great if you are using an IR laser, but if you are using an Aimpint/Trij.Reflex as you aiming device then you need the PRI Monocular Mount for real reliability and rugged modularity. Civilians can't buy IR lasers anymore and neither can even local PD's, only Military and Fed's can, so civilians must use a weapon mounted monocular. The IR lasers can and have caused a serious threat to eye saftey, hense the IR laser restrictions. Hope this helps some more. Good Shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 12/13/2002 6:26:01 PM EDT
[#15]
This doesn't just help some more, it practically solves all my problems. Just two more:
1) what kind of eye relief does the PRI mount provide for the AN/PVS-14 when mounted on the receiver rail as far back as possible to the BUIS (my preferred cheek weld puts my nose and inch or so away from the Badger latch), and 2) how much distance do [i]you[/i] recommend between the Aimpoint M2 (mounted with the ARMS 22M68 and full spacer at the same rail height, but on the RAS, not on the receiver) and the front of the AN/PVS-14? Thanks very much again! O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/19/2002 4:31:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: "The PRI PVS 14 mount is the best one.... It gives plenty of ajustment for all rear sights used with the 22m68 and works perfect with the #40 and is in service that way. A friendly tip, the PVS 14 and other monoculars work best if they are not in perfect alighnment with the aimpoint,it is best to have the monocular a little higher by about a 1/4" so you don't get tunnel vision and lose ambient light and or field of view..." Yet more questions 3rdtk: Isn't it the case that if you mount the AN/PVS-14 on the receiver in a PRI mount over an ARMS #40 (which stands about 1" high) and behind an Aimpoint/22M68/full-spacer, that the NV device will sit on a higher plane than the Aimpoint (even at the lowest PRI setting) and therefore, the Aimpoint dot will at best appear in the top 1/3 of the sight, if at all, as veiwed through the NV device? How low will the PRI device get the NV, say if no BUIS were used? Would it be feasible to keep the Aimpoint/22M68/full-spacer mounted on RAS using the A3 handle/sights, remove A3 handle at night and mount PRI w/NV device? Is SOPMOD utilizing a BUIS when the PRI/NV device is actually mounted? Thanks in advance. O'DubhGhaill |
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Posted: 12/19/2002 6:30:52 PM EDT
[#17]
I will try to answer your many pointed question as best I can, I think I can. First remember that you don't actualy look thru a NV device, it is more like a TV screen. In other words you are seeing an image of people, etc. not actualy looking at them in the flesh like you do thru a conventional optic. The red dot of the Aimpoint, etc. will appear green and basicaly in the center of the NV device, even though the red dot is mounted in the lower conventional position for doing your daytime firering, you don't need a spacer. If you place the NV a little higher it helps it do a better job of collecting ambient light, better field of view and no tunnel vision. I see many advertisments of NV being shown in perfect alighnment with the Aimpoint and that automaticaly tells me that someone is just trying to sell something that they do not know what they are making or talking about. The PRI mount goes as low or ligh on any weapon as you may want to put it, even in perfect alignment if you don't care about getting the most of what the proper set up can provide for viewing and shooting at night. NV belongs on helmets only if you have a laser, otherwise you can't aim because you can't see your red/geen dot, because you can't bring your helmet down on the butt stock and most impotantly you can't find the damn red dot optic up so close to align the head mounted NV to it, because it just doesn't work that way!
I hope this does answer most of your question/s? Good Shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 12/19/2002 8:32:48 PM EDT
[#18]
I DO AGREE WITH 3RDTK'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE SODA STRAW EFFECT THAT COMES FROM HAVING THE NIGHT VISION DEVICE CRAMMED UP AGAINST THE AIMPOINT. IT HAS TO BE SEEN TO BE APPRECIATED.
UNDERSTAND THAT ANY (!!!) CLEAR LENS ATTENUATES LIGHT TRANSMISSION. TRY YOUR NIGHT VISION DEVICE WITH THE NAKED EYE; THEN, SLIP ON A CLEAR PAIR OF SHOOTING GLASSES. IT IS SURPRISING HOW MUCH "DARKER" IT GETS! THE LIGHT PASSING THROUGH AN AIMPOINT, OR EOTECH, OR WHATEVER, IS SIMILARLY ATTENUATED. MOST QUALITY UNIT POWER (1X) GEN III NVD'S HAVE A 40 DEGREE FIELD OF VIEW. CRAM IT UP AGAINST AN AIMPOINT AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT LESS THAN HALF OF THAT. PLUS, IT'S A BIT DARK WITHOUT AN I.R. ILLUMINATOR. I PERSONALLY HAVE HAD EXCELLENT SUCCESS, HOWEVER, WITH SO-CALLED "IN-LINE" MOUNTING OF MY AIMPOINT AND PVS-14. THIS IS ACHIEVED ONLY (!) WITH FORWARD MOUNTING OF MY AIMPOINT IN A KNIGHT'S OFFSET MOUNT UP FRONT ON MY FLAT TOP AND (ADMITTEDLY NOT "STOUT") GG&G 6015 QD MOUNT. I SEE "OVER AND AROUND" MY AIMPOINT IN A SIMILAR FASHION TO 3RDTK LOOKING "OVER" HIS USING THE PRI #69 MOUNT. YET, I AM ABLE TO MAINTAIN MY NORMAL CHEEK WELD WITH MY SET-UP, SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT TO ME. DO I SHOOT THIS WAY MOST OF THE TIME? NO, I USE AN I.R. LASER AND KEEP THE NVD ON MY HEAD/HELMET MOUNT. BUT, FOR THOSE OF YOU DOING ANIMAL CONTROL AFTER HOURS, A VISIBLE LASER LIKE THE SUREFIRE L72 OR THE LASER DEVICES OTAL WORKS JUST FINE. THE COYOTES WILL CATCH ON IF THEY SEE IT AND YOU MISS. BUT THEY ALWAYS CATCH ON QUICKLY. KEEP IN MIND THAT USING THE PVS-14 OR SIMILAR UNIT POWER NIGHT VISION MONOCULAR ON THE WEAPON AND WITH A WEAPON SIGHT LIKE THE AIMPOINT IS AN ADAPTATION TO ITS DESIGN, NOT ITS ORIGINAL PURPOSE. BURN A HOLE IN YOUR NVD TUBE BY LEAVING THE AIMPOINT AND THE NVD ON IN YOUR SAFE FOR A WEEK AND NEITHER ITT NOR LITTON WILL HONOR YOUR WARRANTY. SO, IN CONCLUSION, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE A WAY TO SHOOT WITH THE NVD ON YOUR EYE (LASER) AND ON THE WEAPON (AIMPOINT). NOBODY'S MADE THE PERFECT NVD MOUNT FOR DOING BOTH. THE GG&G ALLOWS GOING FROM ONE TO THE OTHER EASILY. THE PRI IS A ROCK SOLID WEAPON-ONLY MOUNT. WE SELL BOTH REGULARLY. BUT I WILL MOVE TO A BETTER ONE WHEN IT BECOMES A REALITY. AND IF I HAD TO GUESS, I'D SAY IT WILL HAVE A QD THROW LEVER ON IT. WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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Posted: 12/20/2002 4:55:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Thanks very much again, 3rdtk and Wes.
I found a very interesting thread on nearly the same topic you all participated in response to a query by PincoPalla a while back [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=97189&w=searchPop[/url] All for now. O'DubhGhaill |
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