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Posted: 12/18/2003 8:31:51 PM EDT
(Yes, I've done a search)

I want to store a few magazines loaded for my AR. You know, just in case. Since I don't have a flash suppressor on my rifle, I'd like to know if anyone knows of a good defensive round w/o a huge fireball coming out of the muzzle?

My friend let me try some Malaysian 5.56 that was fairly hot and had very little flash. Anyone else shot something like this?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:48:07 PM EDT
Might check this out... I have been wanting to buy some... Maybe after the holidays I will order some up and try it out... http://www.firequest.com/catalog/specialtyammo.html
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:07:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jnewt:
Might check this out... I have been wanting to buy some... Maybe after the holidays I will order some up and try it out... http://www.firequest.com/catalog/specialtyammo.html
View Quote


Hey,it's your money...but as P.T. Barnum would say, "There's a sucker born every minute."


That ammo is noting more than a gimick.

I recommend some 75gr Hornady BTHP or some 77gr Nosler BTHP.  BH sells the 75gr Hornady with a low flash powder.  Check the fragmentation experiments posted at the top of this forum for more info.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 11:01:28 PM EDT
When I said I wanted to buy some I didnt mean 500rds...lol... I would like to buy one box just to check it out.. I mean hell its only $12.

Thank you for the heads up on the Hornady.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:05:44 AM EDT
Black Hills 75gr OTM (it uses the 75gr Hornady bullet); it's low flash (really low flash), Priced Right, and a proven winner.

Did you see the thread tacked up on the top of this forum listing some of the 'best' defensive rounds?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:07:45 AM EDT
Forgot to add - you'll need to buy enough to really test to make sure it feed well in your rifle.  Also verify the accuracy is acceptable as rifles with 1:9 twist are marginal with the ammo.

All my rifles are 1:9 (lengths from 14.5" to 20") and keep groups from 2" to almost 4" at 100 yards with the ammo (which I find acceptable).
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:35:59 AM EDT
Whoops.  I forgot to ask your twist rate.

If the 75 or 77gr won't work, then I recommend the 68gr Hornady or the 69gr SMK.

Thanks for mentioning that, Forest.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:28:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 3:31:52 PM EDT by DevL]
The 75 grain Black Hills is not cannelured though so you MIGHT (as in VERY unlikely but might) have bullet set back issues that could lead to a malfunction.  I would reccomend using an ammo that goes bang every time over an ammo with superior terminal ballistics and less reliability.  The small chance of a malfunction may not be an issue for you but you should at least be aware of the trade off.

The 77 grain Nosler load is cannelured
The 75 grain Hornady in recent TAP loads is cannelured
The 75 grain BH load is not cannelured yet...
The 68 grain BH load is cannelured (for a 1/9 barrel)
The 69 grain BH load is not cannelured (for a 1/9 barrel)

There will be a new 77 grain cannelured Sierra SMK bullet coming out but its not available to civilians yet.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:07:04 PM EDT
OK, Call me crazy, but I tried some Remington/UMC 55gr metal case that had very little flash out of my 16" Oly.  The Federal XM193 made a HUGE flash, the S&B some but not much, and the Winchester White Box Wally World ammo made a bit more than the S&B.  
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 4:09:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 1:58:17 PM EDT
Most .223ammo fired from carbine-length barrels is going to fragment within "defensive" ranges -say 100-200 yards.

Beyond 200 yards, could this still be considered defensive? (in non-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations)

Beyond 200, escape and evade may be a better idea if you are in a "defensive" and not an "aggressive" stance.   -especially if you are worried about flash signature.

Kind of philosophical actually... My stockpiled loads are 68gr OTM (black hills) and 60 gr V-max (also black hills)  

I know that the V-max is supposed to be a "varmint" round, but as heavy as a 60 gr bullet is, and as explosive as the V-maxes are, I would be very surprised if it didn't prove effective.

Personally, I wish someone would make a 62gr boat-tailed V-max.  Bet that would be a winner
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 5:35:30 PM EDT
For personal defense, use the 55gr PSP's.......
GuarOnteed to make someone's day.......esp if the barrel is 16" or longer.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 5:46:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Artifex:
Most .223ammo fired from carbine-length barrels is going to fragment within "defensive" ranges -say 100-200 yards.

Beyond 200 yards, could this still be considered defensive? (in non-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations)

Beyond 200, escape and evade may be a better idea if you are in a "defensive" and not an "aggressive" stance.   -especially if you are worried about flash signature.

Kind of philosophical actually... My stockpiled loads are 68gr OTM (black hills) and 60 gr V-max (also black hills)  

I know that the V-max is supposed to be a "varmint" round, but as heavy as a 60 gr bullet is, and as explosive as the V-maxes are, I would be very surprised if it didn't prove effective.

Personally, I wish someone would make a 62gr boat-tailed V-max.  Bet that would be a winner
View Quote


You are incorrect on many points.  The 68 grain wont make it to 200 and 100 would be pushing it for frgmentation, especially if its a 14.5" barrel.  The 68 grain is not loaded to NATO spec and it does not fragment at the low velocities fo 75 and 77 grain match ammo.  60 or even 62 grain Vmax will still underpenetrate.  70 grain Vmax? It would underpenetrate.  75 grain Vmax? It would underpentrate too. See a pattern here?

Will M855 fragment from 100-200 from carbine barrel? No.
Will Wolf fragment from 100-200 from acrbine barrel? No.
See another pattern?

There are VERY few .223 loads that will produce significant wound trauma and penetrate deeply enough.  The ones listed in my post and the 64 grain PP and PP+ are the only ones I know of.  If you want expansion instead of fragmentation the list gets bigger.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 6:22:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 10:16:18 PM EDT
There is a list around here somewhere that lists the best defensive rounds and their penatration.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 10:21:56 PM EDT
hmm
defensive ammo or ammo that causes major damage...
my own play testing found hornady's TAP ammo ballistic tipped 62 grain (red Tips) did massive damage to the 12 5 gallon jugs I brought to the range from 25 to 150 yards away
all exploded spectacularly and jumped in the air on a few hits...enough  to have the range master question me on waht i was using
I want to get some clay blocks and see the happened to the bullet though
I didnt find any remains other than huge holes in the jugs...these are the water cooler jugs also
now to try the barrier penetrators to see what they are all about
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:21:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 555R:
my own play testing found hornady's TAP ammo ballistic tipped 62 grain (red Tips) did massive damage to the 12 5 gallon jugs I brought to the range from 25 to 150 yards away
View Quote

Good to know if we're attacked by 5 gallon jugs!


I want to get some clay blocks and see the happened to the bullet though
View Quote

This is incase Gumby goes Postal?

Seriously Clay isn't a good medium for testing, but water can be.  Over at [url]www.firearmstactical.com[/url] there is a brief on how to do testing using milk cartons full of water (to get penetration figures).  Also, at [url]www.swatmag.com[/url] you can buy (download) a back issue on how to make a 'Fackler Box' - a horizontal water trough for testing penetration (I plan on building one myself over the winter).
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:44:10 AM EDT
[LOLabove]

This is incase Gumby goes Postal?, [ROFL2], you're killing me Forest.....

Hey, GoGators, did ya read the [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url], I like the Winney PP and PP+ 64 grn. rounds myself.....

Mike
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:33:41 AM EDT
Thats funny forest
yes however here in NJ there is a growing number of terrorist water jugs and clay gumby's
I have been warned and told to shoot on sight
there are however armed and dangerous
especially the camoflage Gumbys...I also found out they are now using thermoptic camoflage

seriously I want to see what happens to the bullets which is why i want to try clay or something
i can never find them after shooting jugs
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 7:03:15 AM EDT
Detano-expanding, LOL
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 9:16:34 AM EDT
OK, please don't misunderstand me here... But I need a bit of help with some of the numbers being input here.

Some are saying M193 will not fragment past 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel? YIKES. That's not very far.

The Ammo Oracle says that 193 from a 16" barrel will fragment to 140-150m... Is this still true?

This is an interesting discussion.

jim
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 12:44:24 PM EDT
Who has said that M193 wont fragment past 50 yards from a 16" barrel?  Where did  they obtain that data?

It wont fragment at 1 inch if you get shot in the arm.  However Id like to see the testing where at 50 yards they can show M193 not fragmenting with regularity in calibrated ballistic gel.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 12:53:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 1:10:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
This is patently false.  MOST 55gr .223 loads won't fragment beyond 40-50 yards from a 16" barrel, if they fragment at all.
-Troy
View Quote


I think he mistook this post to mean M193 as opposed to generic 55gr .223
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 3:08:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 4:03:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
[url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url].
View Quote


Learn it, Live It, Love It!
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 9:10:22 PM EDT
My apologies. I did read the ammo oracle, hence my comment "The Ammo Oracle says that 193 from a 16" barrel will fragment to 140-150m"

I apologize for mistaking your statement of most 55gr. loads as including M193 spec ammo.

You couldn't know this but I've become interested in building a CAR type AR and was concerned with what was written here.

jim
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