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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/16/2006 8:26:40 AM EDT
Hi oh wise ones I need help

any thoughts on the best backup sight and optic combo for 3 gun and tactical shooting????

any help would be great they would go on a 6920 with the standard front sight



Thank you in advance
Hanna
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:42:10 AM EDT
I really like my ARMS #40 Low profile back up sight. It's the best I've come across in my opinion.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:43:54 AM EDT
Most pro 3-gunners I have seen use an ACOG for primary, either the TA-11 or TA-31, with a dr optic dot sight, sitting at 45 degrees, on a jp mount, on a JP float tube.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:18:13 PM EDT
My competition rifle uses a TA11 w/ JPoint (same thing as a Tasco Optima but better) mounted on top. My teaching rifle is similar except I use a TA01NSN. It still has the JPoint on top though.

As for a back up system. Any of the good manufacturers will do. ARMS, GG&G, et. al. Honestly though, if you're using an ACOG, you don't need it. The scopes are practically bulletproof.

Another option that works REALLY well is the JP-SRTS. It his Short Range Tactical Sight. It's a nice option and is very fast to acquire in close up situations.

Here's when I would use what sight configurations:

1. If I was using an EOTech, I'd have back-up front and rear irons. Flip up on both, or just a flip up rear and standard front.

2. If I was running an ACOG or CQT (with the new reticle), I'd have the JP-SRTS, mounted, but honestly would probably never use it as if you're running a TA-11, you can train your eyes to ignore the magnification. If you have difficulty with that, the JP-SRTS is the way to go, but I'd replace the front sight post on the system with a front sight post that has a fiber optic insert. A lot brighter and you get a "dot" for CQB situations. Just rotate the rifle and shoot! I shoot with both eyes open all the time anyways.

3. If I was running a variable power or non-"tactical" scope (i.e. ACOG, CQT, EOTech) then, I'd definitely have the JP-SRTS installed and use it a lot!

This is for Tactical Division. The JP-SRTS in my opinion is a great option with little sacrifice. You can easily tap targets under 75 yards with it, without giving up anything in speed. Let your primary optic/sight system dictate what back-up system you use. Not the other way around.

That being said, I shoot Open division, 'cause I hate stuffing rounds into a shotgun. My open division setup is above. The old one was a 2.5-7x scope with an Aimpoint mounted on the handguard. That's replaced and I love what I'm running now.

Occasionally, I run in Tactical Division, but that's when I'm borrowing a friend's Browning Gold for the shotgun (gotta love that auto-load feature!!!). That rifle has only the ACOG on it. No iron sights....'cause the ACOG ain't gonna break.

Hope that helps.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:42:45 PM EDT
any more than one optic throws you out of IPSC tactical class.

1 to 4 power leoupold shotgun scope is your best optic for 3 gun. turn it to 1x for the up close stages and 4x for the 300M stages.

back up iron site I have an arms mounted on mine but have yet to use it in any form of comp.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:00:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 8:04:21 PM EDT by 3-gun]
It depends a lot on wher your going to shoot. If you live toward the West you may have a lot of shoot's over 200 yrds. You may be better off with a 1X5 or a ACOG. If your in the east you may not have all the wide open and your shoot's will be inside of 200 yrds. You may find a Aimpoint or EO Tech the way to go. I use a dot,had a Aimpoint now use a EO-Tech.Most of what I shoot is inside of 200 yrds,and the speed of the dot on the up close to 50 yrd stuff is better for me, and the 1 min dot on the EO-Tech is better on the long stuff. fwiw
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:20:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Most pro 3-gunners I have seen use an ACOG for primary, either the TA-11 or TA-31, with a dr optic dot sight, sitting at 45 degrees, on a jp mount, on a JP float tube.



I have seen this setup many times, but I was wondering, with all of these new high quality quad rail free float tubes (like larue, daniel defenes, KAC, etc) why do they still use the JP tube with those wierd rails that you can attach to them? Other than the 2 o'clock mounting option, I would think the quad rail would work better. As I have demonstrated in the past couple of threads I have posted in, I am clueless about these new gadgets...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:21:57 PM EDT
It also depends on what class you're going to be shooting in. Some 3 gun match rules only make a distinction between irons and optics, with only one optic allowed.

Ditto on the range being an issue. Most eastern matches won't exceed 200yds, with many being no more than 125. An ACOG or Leupold CQT is way overkill for that. Eotech is a better choice for those matches. If you already have a rifle, just go compete for a while and see what others are using before dropping the green on something you might not really like nor be able to fully use. One dirty little secret is the Simmons Pro Diamond 20mm. It does 1.2-5 with a very wide FOV at 100yds for shooting with both eyes open. Best part is the price, like $50 from CDNN. More than a few guys use them and it makes a great entry level scope until you can make a more informed personal decision later.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:27:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Most pro 3-gunners I have seen use an ACOG for primary, either the TA-11 or TA-31, with a dr optic dot sight, sitting at 45 degrees, on a jp mount, on a JP float tube.



I have seen this setup many times, but I was wondering, with all of these new high quality quad rail free float tubes (like larue, daniel defenes, KAC, etc) why do they still use the JP tube with those wierd rails that you can attach to them? Other than the 2 o'clock mounting option, I would think the quad rail would work better. As I have demonstrated in the past couple of threads I have posted in, I am clueless about these new gadgets...



The quad rails are not necessary in 3-Gun as they are too bulky, weigh more than the JP tube and definitely more than the Clark or Briley Carbon Fiber tubes. At the most, we're adding a bi-pod and a secondary sight system. For the bi-pod, I have two sling swivels. One close to the receiver, and one way out on the end. I put the bi-pod where it needs to be for that stage (again this is speaking in Open Division). The secondary sight system is either co-witnessed to your primary optic or at the 2 o'clock position (which is perfect on a JP tube). The one and only time I've put a light on my rifle for 3-Gun was in a dark house stage. I mounted it to my JP gas block picatinny rail and since the farthest shot was like 30m used my Aimpoint on an ARMS QD mount at 2 o'clock. Again...this is for Open division. For Tactical and Limited Division there's even less need for a 4-rail setup 'cause you're not mounting anything to it. Some use a vertical grip, but frankly they aren't good for much. If you want a mono-pod, buy a cheap 40 rounder and clip it into a Redi-Mag. Still faster and more practical.

3GunDave brought up a great option. The Simmons Pro Diamond is an awesome scope for the dollars. You can get it illuminated too and you're still in it for less than $100. If you break it...big deal...it's a $100.

Again, I'd go with what Dave suggested. Shoot some matches in your area and let the shots dictate your needs. On the west coast, we'll shoot targets from 3" to 300 yards in the same array, after running 30-50m and doing 1-2 firearm changes. Run and Gun! For us, we have to have a rifle that can do everything. If my shots never broke 200 yards, I'd probably just run an EOTech full time.

Hope that helps.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:52:30 AM EDT
I'd also like to strongly suggest that you hang out with USCBigDawg, me and others over on-

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/

There is an extensive 3 gun section with all kinds of info and advice. Screen names are one thing, but if you knew who was behind some of them over there, you'd never look anywhere else for serious 3 gun info. Also, the board covers IPSC, USPSA, IDPA, and other forms of competition. It's not all shooting as techniques, equipment, mental and physical training figure in prominently. I surf this board for some info, but the main thrust of this board isn't 3 gun. Not that there isn't good info here, but you'll find folks over on BE boards that compete regularly and are willing to share first hand knowledge of what works in competition.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:41:06 AM EDT
Any high quality, low-powered variable. You want a setup that will allow you to engage targets from contact distance to 400 yards equally well.

VSP
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:00:57 AM EDT
How do you honestly get into doing three gun matches? This has always interested me but have no idea where to go to get started. I have the weapons, times five really, just thought it would be cool to start competing. Does the NRA host these or something?

Sorry for a stupid question but I am interested.

Creeper
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:24:47 AM EDT
creeper find an IPSC club near your location, someone there can point you to smaller local 3 gun matches.

also try brians fourm.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:22:43 PM EDT
I run a TA11 or an EOTech, both on LaRue mounts, and switch out based on the match's target distances/difficulty.

I used to run a SRTS but ditched it because it wasn't precise enough when I needed more precision, and it was really no faster than point shooting the gun in the opposite case.

For Trooper/Open, I just add a DrSight at 1:30'o'clock.


-z
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:27:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Most pro 3-gunners I have seen use an ACOG for primary, either the TA-11 or TA-31, with a dr optic dot sight, sitting at 45 degrees, on a jp mount, on a JP float tube.



This is the latest set-up on my Colt M4. Works like a champ!

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:56:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uscbigdawg1:

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Most pro 3-gunners I have seen use an ACOG for primary, either the TA-11 or TA-31, with a dr optic dot sight, sitting at 45 degrees, on a jp mount, on a JP float tube.



I have seen this setup many times, but I was wondering, with all of these new high quality quad rail free float tubes (like larue, daniel defenes, KAC, etc) why do they still use the JP tube with those wierd rails that you can attach to them? Other than the 2 o'clock mounting option, I would think the quad rail would work better. As I have demonstrated in the past couple of threads I have posted in, I am clueless about these new gadgets...



The quad rails are not necessary in 3-Gun as they are too bulky, weigh more than the JP tube and definitely more than the Clark or Briley Carbon Fiber tubes. At the most, we're adding a bi-pod and a secondary sight system. For the bi-pod, I have two sling swivels. One close to the receiver, and one way out on the end. I put the bi-pod where it needs to be for that stage (again this is speaking in Open Division). The secondary sight system is either co-witnessed to your primary optic or at the 2 o'clock position (which is perfect on a JP tube). The one and only time I've put a light on my rifle for 3-Gun was in a dark house stage. I mounted it to my JP gas block picatinny rail and since the farthest shot was like 30m used my Aimpoint on an ARMS QD mount at 2 o'clock. Again...this is for Open division. For Tactical and Limited Division there's even less need for a 4-rail setup 'cause you're not mounting anything to it. Some use a vertical grip, but frankly they aren't good for much. If you want a mono-pod, buy a cheap 40 rounder and clip it into a Redi-Mag. Still faster and more practical.

3GunDave brought up a great option. The Simmons Pro Diamond is an awesome scope for the dollars. You can get it illuminated too and you're still in it for less than $100. If you break it...big deal...it's a $100.

Again, I'd go with what Dave suggested. Shoot some matches in your area and let the shots dictate your needs. On the west coast, we'll shoot targets from 3" to 300 yards in the same array, after running 30-50m and doing 1-2 firearm changes. Run and Gun! For us, we have to have a rifle that can do everything. If my shots never broke 200 yards, I'd probably just run an EOTech full time.

Hope that helps.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK



Oh, okay. That makes sense. I forgot about the wieght aspect of it. Thanks for the info...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:59:44 PM EDT
At Practical Rifle (similar to 3 gun, just without the extra shotgun), we see all kinds of setups.

Best bang for the buck is an EoTech, standard front sight, and flip up rear (although you can co-witness a fixed sight if you prefer).

Variations on a theme include flip fronts, Aimpoints, risers, etc.

Some of the guys who spend too much money run ACOGs (they really are nice) or Leupold CQB with JPoints, etc.

I will agree at that a BUIS is needed. Last match I heard that one guy's optic started failing. He had also taken off his irons. Last place was his for the taking.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:11:47 PM EDT
Best BUIS for 200M and under is the Troy (flip) or the LaRue (fixed).

If you need to go further than that get the KAC 600M.

As for optic. Are you running 3 gun in MD? If so the only place that I know that runs such matches has a short range. An EOTech 512 or Aimpoint would be fine. I ran a course with my Compact ACOG and the 3x was way more than I needed but it worked (thank Trijicon for BAC!), I think my EOTech would have been better.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:40:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 2:45:13 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]

Originally Posted By NoAim:
At Practical Rifle (similar to 3 gun, just without the extra shotgun), we see all kinds of setups.
Best bang for the buck is an EoTech, standard front sight, and flip up rear (although you can co-witness a fixed sight if you prefer).
Some of the guys who spend too much money run ACOGs (they really are nice) or Leupold CQB with JPoints, etc.


At our monthly rifle matches (3Gun style, rifle only, no pistol) where we shoot from 0 to 400 yards, an EOTech is a poor choice for obvious reasons, compared to a TA11, Accupoint, etc. That said, I shot every stage at the Cavalry Arms / TV 3Gun match with my EOTech, switching to the TA11 only for the 300 yard standards (Trooper class).

-z
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:36:41 PM EDT
Creeper-

Here's a couple of links to get started-

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/

http://www.3gunmatch.com/

http://www.3gunrules.com/

http://www.uspsa.org/

3 gun isn't yet well organized in terms of a universal set of rules and I seriously doubt that the NRA would ever sanction or sponsor a match. Research through these sites and you'll find a match near you. There are at least 3 club matches every month here in NC and 2 biggies yearly.

But back to the issue of equipment- the final choice should only be made after shooting a few matches with what you have and seeing what you are most likely to be doing. It is very rare to have shots over 200yds on the east coast. Out west is a different matter where they have the area to play. I started 3 gunning with a prescription for "HeMan/HeavyMetal/Trooper" 308/45acp/12ga pump. Almost all of the matches on this side of the country are NOT 30 cal neutral, nor do they make any distinction between a pump and auto shotgun, so I've been handicapped at most matches against the mouseguns, 40cal, and auto 12ga. Again, before spending bucks, compete for a while before making choices. I'm now with a RRA AR, Glock 21 (soon to be 35), and Rem 1100 and have been picking up places as a result. Now if I could find a set of young guy eyes and new finger joints......
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