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Posted: 12/27/2016 7:05:47 PM EDT
I'm looking to build my first SBR. I would love to be able to hunt with it. Deer is what I typically hunt as well as hogs. I have carried my suppressor with my 16" barrel AR15 but dadgum that sucker is long. I want to be able to hunt with a suppressor without having to carry something that I can poke my game animal with at 100 yards.

Been looking at the 277 Wolverine because I like the idea of only have to buy a set of dies and a barrel.

What do y'all think?
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 7:17:15 PM EDT
[#1]
I would use a longer barrel for hunting, at least a 16". I consider all AR-15 chamberings to be at the low end of what's useable for game animals as far as power is concerned.

6.8SPC and a 16" barrel will work great.
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 7:36:52 PM EDT
[#2]
6.8 SPC, but I too would use a 16 inch.
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 8:22:28 PM EDT
[#3]
I am going to build a 10.5" gun. I've shot deer with my 16" 223 wylde. Works just fine.

Surely there are some wildcat cartridges that have decent terminal performance out of a 10.5" barrel?
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 8:30:18 PM EDT
[#4]
300 AAC will get you OK performance if you limit range, 6.8 will do much better if you can step it up to a 12.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 8:40:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
300 AAC will get you OK performance if you limit range, 6.8 will do much better if you can step it up to a 12.5" barrel.
View Quote

12.5" is doable. I am just tired of lugging around something so long. I typically hunt with a suppressor now that it is legal here in Texas anyway.
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 8:41:46 PM EDT
[#6]
I guess what I really want is opinions from people who know a bunch about other calibers like the 6.5 grendel, 6mm mongoose, 277 wolverine, 6mm PPC and such.

I reload for everything I have to I wouldn't be opposed to building a rifle based on an odd caliber.
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 8:45:38 PM EDT
[#7]
+1 on 300 BLK or 6.8
Link Posted: 12/27/2016 9:48:02 PM EDT
[#8]
.458 SOCOM.

/thread
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 1:14:06 AM EDT
[#9]
12.5" 6.8 should do 2500 FPS with 110 grain
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 1:26:59 AM EDT
[#10]
+1 on the 300 BLK in a 10.5" barrel. Plenty of hogs and deer dying to this round lately. Cheaper than 6.5 Grendel or 277 Wolverine factory ammo. Then again if you are reloading this cost difference will be somewhat negated.
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 2:02:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:Cheaper than 6.5 Grendel
View Quote


Wolf 6.5 Grendel steel-case has been on sale lately for as low as 23¢ round.
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 9:45:43 AM EDT
[#12]
I hunt with an 8.5 inch 300 blackout and a suppressor and it works fine but I live in the woods and I seldom have to shoot past 100 yds . I understand about lugging around a 16 or 20 inch gun with a can on the end its a pain in the ass .
if you plan on just using sub-sonic ammo then I think the 300 blackout has the edge right now there are some good expanding or fracturing  bullets but if you strictly hunt with super-sonic I would definatly check out the 6.8 , 6.5, and 277 forums and see what they are doing with sbr's .  you can also check out the 300 black forum .
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 10:43:10 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
.458 SOCOM.

/thread
View Quote


This.  For shots to 150 yards there is no better hog/deer hammer than the .458 SOCOM.  10 to 12 inches plus a suppressor gives you a lot of power in a very small package.
Need more range?  Look into the .375 SOCOM.   Factory loads available for both from SBR.  Uppers available from TROMIX.
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 12:33:32 PM EDT
[#14]
6.5 Grendel

With a 129gr ABLR, the 10.5" 6.5 Grendel has the same energy on target as a 300gr .458 TTSX at 150yds, with insane expansion and penetration, with much less recoil.
Link Posted: 12/28/2016 1:31:13 PM EDT
[#15]
I built a 7.62x39 for my 150-200yd deer gun.  Food is cheap and plentiful and "the good stuff" costs the same as any other factory loaded AR caliber.

Working on a 6.5G now, it was a lot easier/cheaper to find parts for the 7.62x39... I know the 6.5G will outperform it hands down but it takes more to get one together.

More and more companies are getting into the 6.5G game though, and you can get good deals on group buys if you have time to wait too.  Or for the 12" range barrels (for the SBR) they are incoming on the 6.5grendel forum group buy right now (it is active, they bought a few extras)
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 1:11:08 AM EDT
[#16]
I have 6.5grendel, 300bo, and 458 socom in 16.5 and 10.5 inch barrels.  All are fun to shoot. 10.5" barrels reduce power but accuracy is plenty good enough, 2moa, for hunting to 200. Reduction is not that significant to effect performance ie expansion on quality bullets.  I limit shots to 150yds but the 6.5 an 300 will go to 250-300 easily.  If I don't want to lug the carbines around I will take the pistols.  Aiming is not difficult using a good cheek weld only.  Just have to concentrate with the 458 or you might loose a tooth.
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 1:32:02 AM EDT
[#17]
If you have to go that short in barrel, look for large-bore cartridges that are as close to possible as straight-walled.  .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, etc..
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 1:35:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I'm looking to build my first SBR. I would love to be able to hunt with it. Deer is what I typically hunt as well as hogs. I have carried my suppressor with my 16" barrel AR15 but dadgum that sucker is long. I want to be able to hunt with a suppressor without having to carry something that I can poke my game animal with at 100 yards.

Been looking at the 277 Wolverine because I like the idea of only have to buy a set of dies and a barrel.

What do y'all think?
View Quote


6.8, 6.5, 300 Blackout or 458 SOCOM would be my suggestions.    I'd go about an inch longer though.   
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 1:11:31 PM EDT
[#19]
I would say a 12.5'' 6.8 is the best for what you are looking for.  With 95 gr barnes TSX I can get 2600 FPS, easily reach out to 300 yards and when I add my Socom 2 suppressor to it, it is about as long as a 16'' AR.  My second choice would be a 277 Wolverine in the same barrel length, but with 6.8 you get more OOMMPHH for you dollar.
Link Posted: 12/29/2016 1:25:01 PM EDT
[#20]
6.5 Grendel SBR vs. 2 Does with 129gr ABLR

10.5" suppressed Grendel vs. 10 point Buck

Link Posted: 12/30/2016 10:58:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

I need to block you. 

Everyone of your posts makes me want to buy a couple 6.5 uppers and ammo
Link Posted: 12/30/2016 11:39:27 PM EDT
[#22]
300 BLK is considered roughly equivalent to  a 30-30. It has an advantage over most other AR  calibers in short barrels in that it uses pistol powder and burns most of it powder in even an 8" barrel.  Most of the others lose a great deal of their superior ballistics in anything that short.

Hornady
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 1:32:30 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I need to block you. 

Everyone of your posts makes me want to buy a couple 6.5 uppers and ammo
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I need to block you. 

Everyone of your posts makes me want to buy a couple 6.5 uppers and ammo


Take an 11.5" 6.5 Grendel with the 129gr ABLR (factory load BTW) and shoot it next to a 20" .30-30 with the 150gr Hornady RN:

11.5" 6.5 Grendel with a 129gr ABLR gives you:

100yds 2066fps 1223ft-lbs
200yds 1928fps 1065ft-lbs
300yds 1796fps 924ft-lbs
400yds 1671fps 800ft-lb

20" barreled .30-30 with a 150gr RN Hornady:

100yds 1879fps 1176ft-lbs
175yds 1599fps 852ft-lbs
200yds 1515fps 764ft-lbs

An 11.5" 6.5 Grendel has more energy at 400yds shooting a lighter bullet, than a 20" .30-30 does at 200yds.  This is one of the easiest ways to show the layman how effective BC is compared to a known cartridge that dates back to 1895, and has been used to harvest untold numbers of deer and even large game at close range.

I would consider stepping away from 1895 technology, and into something more compact, with better performance, compatible with the AR15.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 2:50:39 PM EDT
[#24]
LRRP, I swear you have investment in some kind of Grendel stock market futures or such...LOL!

Yeah, those are impressive numbers and definitely more understandable the way you compared it.  I'm determined to stick to 9mm, .223, and .308, but 6.5G keeps rearing its ugly head.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 3:30:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
LRRP, I swear you have investment in some kind of Grendel stock market futures or such...LOL!

Yeah, those are impressive numbers and definitely more understandable the way you compared it.  I'm determined to stick to 9mm, .223, and .308, but 6.5G keeps rearing its ugly head.
View Quote


DO IT!  Subliminal messaging
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 3:36:56 PM EDT
[#26]
6.8, but better if you could go up to 12~14.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 3:42:10 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
300 BLK is considered roughly equivalent to a 30-30. It has an advantage over most other AR  calibers in short barrels in that it uses pistol powder and burns most of it powder in even an 8" barrel.
View Quote

Most rifle cartridges burn all their powder within the first inch or two of bullet travel, pistol cartridges typically burn all their powder before the bullet even moves. Don't confuse gas expansion with powder burning.

If the OP truly wants to go with a barrel that short, the 338 Spectre is a reasonable performance boost over 300 Blk but really need to handload. Also would need a 338 or 9mm size suppressor, so that might be a detriment.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 3:57:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
LRRP, I swear you have investment in some kind of Grendel stock market futures or such...LOL!

Yeah, those are impressive numbers and definitely more understandable the way you compared it.  I'm determined to stick to 9mm, .223, and .308, but 6.5G keeps rearing its ugly head.
View Quote

The only motivator for me has been the performance of the cartridge, and what a game-changer it is for the AR15.

If I was compensated for my efforts to-date, the numbers would be substantial, but it has cost me untold thousands of dollars instead.

The Reloading Handbooks, for example, are a money pit, like all books, unless you write some National best-seller geared to a large audience.

I really wanted a high quality resource for my own bench and desk, and figured the few Grendel owners out there that hand-load or reload would too.

I don't ask for freebies, as I like to see people that take risks in the market rewarded for their valued efforts.

This cartridge sells itself really.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 3:59:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Most rifle cartridges burn all their powder within the first inch or two of bullet travel, pistol cartridges typically burn all their powder before the bullet even moves. Don't confuse gas expansion with powder burning.

If the OP truly wants to go with a barrel that short, the 338 Spectre is a reasonable performance boost over 300 Blk but really need to handload. Also would need a 338 or 9mm size suppressor, so that might be a detriment.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
300 BLK is considered roughly equivalent to a 30-30. It has an advantage over most other AR  calibers in short barrels in that it uses pistol powder and burns most of it powder in even an 8" barrel.

Most rifle cartridges burn all their powder within the first inch or two of bullet travel, pistol cartridges typically burn all their powder before the bullet even moves. Don't confuse gas expansion with powder burning.

If the OP truly wants to go with a barrel that short, the 338 Spectre is a reasonable performance boost over 300 Blk but really need to handload. Also would need a 338 or 9mm size suppressor, so that might be a detriment.

Thank you.  It always bugs me when I see the common misunderstanding among gun owners that powder is still being burned way down the barrel.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 4:50:05 PM EDT
[#30]
458 Socom, 375 Socom, 300blk, 6.8spc. Any will do okay. I can highly recommend either Socom. I have 300blk as well but I am not thrilled with it for deer size game even at close range, unless you dont mind chasing them for 50 yds.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 5:46:11 PM EDT
[#31]
I have a 458 SOCOM with a 10.5 inch upper.  It'll put a THUMP on a hog and drop them DRT.

The ballistics are such that your max shot is 125-150 yards before it starts dropping way off though.
Link Posted: 12/31/2016 6:12:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
458 Socom, 375 Socom, 300blk, 6.8spc. Any will do okay. I can highly recommend either Socom. I have 300blk as well but I am not thrilled with it for deer size game even at close range, unless you dont mind chasing them for 50 yds.
View Quote

300blk is fine for deer.  I've taken whitetail with 125 sst and 110 tac-tx.   I double lunged a buck this year with a 308 and he ran about 100 yards before he knew he was dead so I don't really consider that a factor in how effective a caliber is.
Link Posted: 1/1/2017 4:17:50 PM EDT
[#33]
suprised nobody has mentioned the 7.62x40wt

either way i'd try and go 12" at least. the 6.8 spc or 6.5g will give you most of what the platform can deliver. (aside from the close range thumpers)

if you could find the white unicorn the 300 ossm would hammer. but the wssm's have suffered the fate of no brass being produced anymore.
Link Posted: 1/1/2017 4:45:04 PM EDT
[#34]
.458 SOCOM or 300 BLK. Both will work great inside 100yards. Both of mine are pistols, but the BLK is a 8.5" barrel. I wouldn't use either if in a stand or blind over looking a large field, but walking through the woods looking for pigs, they are perfect. The .458 is loaded with 300gr nosler ballistic tips and the BLK with Barnes black tips loaded by Gemtech.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 5:44:39 AM EDT
[#35]
300 BLK excels more so than any other cartridge in an SBR configuration
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 6:07:04 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm a caliber whore, and tend to want to have a specialized rifle for every purpose...

I would think hard about logistics before going down this road. There's a lot of calibers that will get the job done, and that's been covered here very well.

How much do you plan to shoot this rifle in addition to hunting? Are reloading costs a major consideration?

I have a .300 BLK, and a 6.8... Here are a few logistics lessons I learned about weird calibers:

1. Most 6.8 Mags suck, and those that don't are expensive. I assume this is true of most calibers that use specialty mags.
2. Factory ammo or brass is expensive and harder to find.
3. Load data, and component combinations are not always available.

Edit: Aren't the Deer in Texas pretty small? If you are shooting them at 100 yards, and are willing to go to a 12" barrel, a 5.56 with the right ammo is probably as good an option as any. Compare the size/weight of the suppressor as well.

You are likely to get a lighter setup with a 12" 5.56 with a 5" titanium suppressor vs an 8" .300 BLK with a full size .308 can.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 2:19:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
300 BLK excels more so than any other cartridge in an SBR configuration
View Quote


10.5" 6.5 Grendel, 123gr SST/AMAX/ELD-M, 2247fps mv BC .462/.468/.506 G1, tested
100yds 2074fps 1175ft-lbs  expansion to 250yds
100yds 2076fps 1177ft-lbs expansion to 400yds
100yds 2089fps 1191ft-lbs expansion to 435yds

10.5" 6.8 SPC, 120gr Hornady SST, 2262fps mv (BC .400 G1 advertised, not verified)
100yds 2062fps 1133ft-lbs  expansion to 225yds

10.5" .300 BLK, 125gr Hornady SST, 2088fps (optimistic) .305 G1 advertised, not tested
100fps 1840fps 940ft-lbs (this load won't expand at that impact speed in most cases)

110 VMAX, .290 BC, 2236fps
100yds 1965fps 943ft-lbs  expansion to 250yds
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 3:56:02 PM EDT
[#38]
I know that grendel has better external ballistics than 300blk but run the numbers on the 110 tac-tx.   Out of my 9inch barrel I meet the 1300fps minimum expansion threshold at 375 yards.  I'd never try to shoot a deer that far with it, but per the manufacturer the bullet will perform.

I think the 300blk is popular for its suppressed performance and due to the commonality with 223 parts/mags.  I really wanted a grendel but the lack of support for it (years ago) turned me off.  I still might try it one day though.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 4:26:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Your hit probability into the vitals goes way down as distance increases with the 300 BLK, and ammo costs for the premium loads are significant.

That load you're speaking of is over $30/box, Midway lists it for $32.99.

For 300 BLK realistic hunting distances, I'm having a hard time recommending ammo that costs that much when you can get sub-$20/box SSTs all day long for Grendel and SPC.

They're all supers, so suppressed will sound similar.

The Grendel with the TBAC Ultra 5 is crazy quiet and doesn't even feel like a can is on the end of the barrel.

Best place for 300 BLK is suppressed in doors or tight shooting bays, where overpressure events can add up to serious hearing and inner ear problems due to shock resonance off your mastoid processes.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 9:33:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your hit probability into the vitals goes way down as distance increases with the 300 BLK, and ammo costs for the premium loads are significant.

That load you're speaking of is over $30/box, Midway lists it for $32.99.

For 300 BLK realistic hunting distances, I'm having a hard time recommending ammo that costs that much when you can get sub-$20/box SSTs all day long for Grendel and SPC.

They're all supers, so suppressed will sound similar.

The Grendel with the TBAC Ultra 5 is crazy quiet and doesn't even feel like a can is on the end of the barrel.

Best place for 300 BLK is suppressed in doors or tight shooting bays, where overpressure events can add up to serious hearing and inner ear problems due to shock resonance off your mastoid processes.
View Quote


The hit probability goes way down on any rifle as distance increases. This is the same for the 6.5 Grendel unless of course it has the same magic bullets that Kennedy was shot with. Because if you don't dope it right then it doesn't matter if you are using a .22 or 50BMG neither is going to hit where you want.

You also do know there are many more hunting bullets that will expand well out past 100 yards for the 300BLK for around $20.

The Barnes 110gr and 120gr black tip is the premium hunting bullet that was specifically designed for the 300BLK and allows you to hunt in places where lead is banned and is capable of full HALF INCH EXPANSION out past 300 yards does call for a premium on it.

Most hunters I know are not blasting away with hunting ammo and will only go through a couple boxes a year. This makes the price difference almost negligible as it is not hard to find the 110gr black tips for under $30 and considering that Midway is selling your SST for $22.99 it isn't that much of a difference. I also couldn't find any lead free ammo for hunting in places like California and many other states that are requiring lead free bullets for anything less than $40 per 20 for the Grendel.

Speaking of midway when you search grendel ammo you get all of 7 results doing the same search for 300 blackout ammo with get you 50 results to choose from.

Not only is the loaded ammo more available for the 300BLK by a large margin and can even be found in most walmarts it is also a reloaders dream.

The 300BLK uses the most common brass on the planet for its cartridge making it cheap and easy to find. The 300BLK uses the second most common bullet on the planet for its projectiles. These both provide for a plethora of bullet and brass to choose from up to and including military surplus. This also means that if there is ever an ammo shortage these will be the last to to go since there are hundreds of millions of them out there.

Never mind the fact that the 300BLK can take any game the 6.5 grendel can from an SBR in the normal hunting ranges of less than 300 yards. Let's look at why the 300BLK is better suited for an SBR in an AR config. First it just requires a barrel change. This means unlike the Grendel it doesn't need specialty magazines or specialty bolt.

With the Grendel having a magazine that is non standard and only capable of running Grendel ammo makes for far less choices in what kind of magazine you can get and with the magazine only capable of holding up to 17 rounds for the same size as a standard AR 30 round that the 300BLK uses means that you either have to carry more magazines or less ammo.

The Grendel will have a lot more of a fireball than that of the 300BLK. The 300BLK uses on average less than 20gr of quick burning pistol powder vs. the Grendels over 30gr of slower burning powder. The Grendel was made for long barrels to try and compete with the .308 in distance shooting. The 300BLK was designed with 16 inch and under barrels in mind while adding a larger bullet for larger wound cavities with more penetration in brick, glass, mortar and thin steel than that of the smaller and slightly faster bullets.

With a lower flash signature, standard magazine that can hold a full 30 rounds, standard AR bolts, lower recoil for faster follow up shots, more choices in ammo, easier to find ammo, reloading with the most common components on the planet and a round that was made for shorter barrels with the capability of shooting subs just as easily supers. Makes for a great hunting SBR.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 9:46:37 PM EDT
[#41]
These are not my pics but come from the 300BLK message board where many more of these can be seen. Here is the description:

My wife is hunting for the first time this year. She has been shooting with me for a few years and is skilled behind the trigger (pistol or rifle) but has never shot game before. Her platform is a RARR compact with 2-7 Leupold Firedot and a cheek riser (made a huge difference). Shooting 110 Barnes.

I will let the pictures finish the story. Two neck shots, two DRT, and a proud husband. What an experience to watch her drop her first two deer! Now once i get dialed in my subsonic ammo suppressed, I will be attempting my first subsonic hunt.

300blk strikes again.



Link Posted: 1/2/2017 11:09:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
300 BLK excels more so than any other cartridge in an SBR configuration
View Quote

This is what I was responding to.

This is a factual statement that can't be supported in any of the parameters that I can think of.

Retained energy and impact speed on target, it's one of the worst bottle-necked options on the market.

Expansion window is probably the narrowest with 300 BLK compared to most other options. Trying to think of something worse outside of the big bores, which are meant for close range anyway.

Drop and drift are one of the worst, if not the worst of all, outside of the big bores.

Ammunition costs are noticeable higher.  The more affordable options are loaded with bullets meant for much higher speeds, which affects swaging into the bore and accuracy.

The idea that it does so well from short barrels compared to other cartridges is best replaced with the idea that it does well compared to itself, since case capacity is so limited.  Trying to milk better supersonic performance out of it seems like an exercise in futility.  I like it for subs/suppressed, where it shines, as long as you don't push into freezing temps and still expect reliable function or subsonic speeds.

The magazine compatibility is more of a liability to me, especially if you also own and take 5.56 ARs to the range at the same time.  Requires marking your mags conspicuously, and even then, if ammunition carrying bags or gear isn't segregated, you increase chances of feeding 300 BLK into 5.56, with the known consequences we've seen all too often.

I had an 8.5" barrel I was going to build up a gun with.  The more I thought about it, the less I wanted it, and just sold it on the EE.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 12:04:43 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm a caliber whore, and tend to want to have a specialized rifle for every purpose...

I would think hard about logistics before going down this road. There's a lot of calibers that will get the job done, and that's been covered here very well.

How much do you plan to shoot this rifle in addition to hunting? Are reloading costs a major consideration?

I have a .300 BLK, and a 6.8... Here are a few logistics lessons I learned about weird calibers:

1. Most 6.8 Mags suck, and those that don't are expensive. I assume this is true of most calibers that use specialty mags.
2. Factory ammo or brass is expensive and harder to find.
3. Load data, and component combinations are not always available.

Edit: Aren't the Deer in Texas pretty small? If you are shooting them at 100 yards, and are willing to go to a 12" barrel, a 5.56 with the right ammo is probably as good an option as any. Compare the size/weight of the suppressor as well.

You are likely to get a lighter setup with a 12" 5.56 with a 5" titanium suppressor vs an 8" .300 BLK with a full size .308 can.
View Quote


You know, I'm the same way. I have actually had an 8" 300 BLK and a 20" 6.8 ARP in AR15s. Still have a 300 blk AAC Handi-rifle.

The 300 blk couldn't hold a group worth a darn. Not better than 1.25" at 100 yards with handloads and don't even get me started on trying to gets subs to group.
The 6.8 was extremely accurate. Sold it and bought my first suppressor. Had 4 AR15s at the time and the ammo and mags were a pain in the rear. I did reload for it.

I have always wanted to get a 6.5 Grendel. I may just have to go for it to try it out.

As far as the deer here... Yeah, they are a bit smaller than places up north but the bigger bucks can still get to be about 200-250 lbs. I also hunt mule deer in west Texas as well.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 12:25:57 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
I'm looking to build my first SBR. I would love to be able to hunt with it. Deer is what I typically hunt as well as hogs. I have carried my suppressor with my 16" barrel AR15 but dadgum that sucker is long. I want to be able to hunt with a suppressor without having to carry something that I can poke my game animal with at 100 yards.

Been looking at the 277 Wolverine because I like the idea of only have to buy a set of dies and a barrel.

What do y'all think?
View Quote


What suppressor do you have?  If .30 cal get anything you'd like. If only 5.56 then you're sort of stuck unless you want to pay the tax and wait a year for a new can.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 12:47:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


What suppressor do you have?  If .30 cal get anything you'd like. If only 5.56 then you're sort of stuck unless you want to pay the tax and wait a year for a new can.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm looking to build my first SBR. I would love to be able to hunt with it. Deer is what I typically hunt as well as hogs. I have carried my suppressor with my 16" barrel AR15 but dadgum that sucker is long. I want to be able to hunt with a suppressor without having to carry something that I can poke my game animal with at 100 yards.

Been looking at the 277 Wolverine because I like the idea of only have to buy a set of dies and a barrel.

What do y'all think?


What suppressor do you have?  If .30 cal get anything you'd like. If only 5.56 then you're sort of stuck unless you want to pay the tax and wait a year for a new can.
It's a .30 cal.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 1:08:18 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:
It's a .30 cal.
View Quote


Look at 6.5G, 6.8 SPC, and .300BLK depending on your needs. Any of those, in addition to 5.56, will take TX deer at 100yds.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 1:14:48 AM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
6.5 Grendel

With a 129gr ABLR, the 10.5" 6.5 Grendel has the same energy on target as a 300gr .458 TTSX at 150yds, with insane expansion and penetration, with much less recoil.
View Quote


129gr ABLR bullets are out of stock everywhere....
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 3:52:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This is what I was responding to.

This is a factual statement that can't be supported in any of the parameters that I can think of.

Retained energy and impact speed on target, it's one of the worst bottle-necked options on the market.

Expansion window is probably the narrowest with 300 BLK compared to most other options. Trying to think of something worse outside of the big bores, which are meant for close range anyway.

Drop and drift are one of the worst, if not the worst of all, outside of the big bores.

Ammunition costs are noticeable higher.  The more affordable options are loaded with bullets meant for much higher speeds, which affects swaging into the bore and accuracy.

The idea that it does so well from short barrels compared to other cartridges is best replaced with the idea that it does well compared to itself, since case capacity is so limited.  Trying to milk better supersonic performance out of it seems like an exercise in futility.  I like it for subs/suppressed, where it shines, as long as you don't push into freezing temps and still expect reliable function or subsonic speeds.

The magazine compatibility is more of a liability to me, especially if you also own and take 5.56 ARs to the range at the same time.  Requires marking your mags conspicuously, and even then, if ammunition carrying bags or gear isn't segregated, you increase chances of feeding 300 BLK into 5.56, with the known consequences we've seen all too often.

I had an 8.5" barrel I was going to build up a gun with.  The more I thought about it, the less I wanted it, and just sold it on the EE.
View Quote


Thought I supported it pretty well by showing that you lose a ton of energy going with an 6.5 SBR along with creating a huge flash and having to buy nonstandard bolts, nonstandard magazines, lack of capacity in magazines, lack of availability in such common places as walmart, lack of choices in manufactures and ammunition.

The fact that the 300BLK can take any game the 6.5 Grendel in normal hunting ranges of under 300 yards coming out of an SBR.

I find it humorous that you worry about expansion thresholds when the 300BLK can expand much larger than the 6.5 creating a larger wound cavity within the normal hunting ranges of 300 yards. As I mentioned the 110gr and 120gr Barnes Black tip will all fully expand to 1/2 inch when shot within these ranges so I don't see why you should be concerned about expansion capabilities.

As for costs new bullets are coming out to bring costs down and if you reload you can't even touch the costs saving of the 300BLK. Any hunting round will still cost a lot just like they do in the 6.5.

As for reliability in cold weather I don't think you know what you are talking about maybe you should leave that to someone who actually runs the 300BLK in cold weather. As for overall reliability the 300BLK will blow away the 6.5 Grendel in any semi auto as 6.5 was made for bolt action long range shooting.

I also thought about getting an 6.5 but I didn't even get the barrel because I went with the .308 which I can find at any store and has a ton more support.

Being realistic the average shooting distance for most deer hunts in under 100 yards. There isn't an animal out there that a 6.5 Grendel can take in an SBR configuration that the 300BLK cannot do the same to at those ranges.

The 300BLK is a better SBR than the 6.5 for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just like the 6.5 with a longer barrel is a better long range gun than the 300BLK.  One was designed for a semi auto with short barrels in mind the other was designed by Dave Tubb to shoot long range national match courses out of bolt action barrels.
Link Posted: 1/3/2017 7:19:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thought I supported it pretty well by showing that you lose a ton of energy going with an 6.5 SBR along with creating a huge flash and having to buy nonstandard bolts, nonstandard magazines, lack of capacity in magazines, lack of availability in such common places as walmart, lack of choices in manufactures and ammunition.

The fact that the 300BLK can take any game the 6.5 Grendel in normal hunting ranges of under 300 yards coming out of an SBR.

I find it humorous that you worry about expansion thresholds when the 300BLK can expand much larger than the 6.5 creating a larger wound cavity within the normal hunting ranges of 300 yards. As I mentioned the 110gr and 120gr Barnes Black tip will all fully expand to 1/2 inch when shot within these ranges so I don't see why you should be concerned about expansion capabilities.

As for costs new bullets are coming out to bring costs down and if you reload you can't even touch the costs saving of the 300BLK. Any hunting round will still cost a lot just like they do in the 6.5.

As for reliability in cold weather I don't think you know what you are talking about maybe you should leave that to someone who actually runs the 300BLK in cold weather. As for overall reliability the 300BLK will blow away the 6.5 Grendel in any semi auto as 6.5 was made for bolt action long range shooting.

I also thought about getting an 6.5 but I didn't even get the barrel because I went with the .308 which I can find at any store and has a ton more support.

Being realistic the average shooting distance for most deer hunts in under 100 yards. There isn't an animal out there that a 6.5 Grendel can take in an SBR configuration that the 300BLK cannot do the same to at those ranges.

The 300BLK is a better SBR than the 6.5 for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just like the 6.5 with a longer barrel is a better long range gun than the 300BLK.  One was designed for a semi auto with short barrels in mind the other was designed by Dave Tubb to shoot long range national match courses out of bolt action barrels.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

This is what I was responding to.

This is a factual statement that can't be supported in any of the parameters that I can think of.

Retained energy and impact speed on target, it's one of the worst bottle-necked options on the market.

Expansion window is probably the narrowest with 300 BLK compared to most other options. Trying to think of something worse outside of the big bores, which are meant for close range anyway.

Drop and drift are one of the worst, if not the worst of all, outside of the big bores.

Ammunition costs are noticeable higher.  The more affordable options are loaded with bullets meant for much higher speeds, which affects swaging into the bore and accuracy.

The idea that it does so well from short barrels compared to other cartridges is best replaced with the idea that it does well compared to itself, since case capacity is so limited.  Trying to milk better supersonic performance out of it seems like an exercise in futility.  I like it for subs/suppressed, where it shines, as long as you don't push into freezing temps and still expect reliable function or subsonic speeds.

The magazine compatibility is more of a liability to me, especially if you also own and take 5.56 ARs to the range at the same time.  Requires marking your mags conspicuously, and even then, if ammunition carrying bags or gear isn't segregated, you increase chances of feeding 300 BLK into 5.56, with the known consequences we've seen all too often.

I had an 8.5" barrel I was going to build up a gun with.  The more I thought about it, the less I wanted it, and just sold it on the EE.


Thought I supported it pretty well by showing that you lose a ton of energy going with an 6.5 SBR along with creating a huge flash and having to buy nonstandard bolts, nonstandard magazines, lack of capacity in magazines, lack of availability in such common places as walmart, lack of choices in manufactures and ammunition.

The fact that the 300BLK can take any game the 6.5 Grendel in normal hunting ranges of under 300 yards coming out of an SBR.

I find it humorous that you worry about expansion thresholds when the 300BLK can expand much larger than the 6.5 creating a larger wound cavity within the normal hunting ranges of 300 yards. As I mentioned the 110gr and 120gr Barnes Black tip will all fully expand to 1/2 inch when shot within these ranges so I don't see why you should be concerned about expansion capabilities.

As for costs new bullets are coming out to bring costs down and if you reload you can't even touch the costs saving of the 300BLK. Any hunting round will still cost a lot just like they do in the 6.5.

As for reliability in cold weather I don't think you know what you are talking about maybe you should leave that to someone who actually runs the 300BLK in cold weather. As for overall reliability the 300BLK will blow away the 6.5 Grendel in any semi auto as 6.5 was made for bolt action long range shooting.

I also thought about getting an 6.5 but I didn't even get the barrel because I went with the .308 which I can find at any store and has a ton more support.

Being realistic the average shooting distance for most deer hunts in under 100 yards. There isn't an animal out there that a 6.5 Grendel can take in an SBR configuration that the 300BLK cannot do the same to at those ranges.

The 300BLK is a better SBR than the 6.5 for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just like the 6.5 with a longer barrel is a better long range gun than the 300BLK.  One was designed for a semi auto with short barrels in mind the other was designed by Dave Tubb to shoot long range national match courses out of bolt action barrels.

This is what I'm hearing from your position:

300 BLK can do anything the Grendel can do out to 300yds.

Supporting statements are:

"10.5" 6.5 Grendel produces fire balls at the muzzle."
"Grendel uses a different bolt and mags."
"I can find 300 AAC at Wal Mart."

If you understand physics and chemical properties of metallic cartridge propellant, you will understand the challenge of getting .300 BLK Suppressed/Subsonic to work in extreme cold.  You can have either supersonic/reliable, or subsonic/unreliable in many cases, and this is from engineers who actually make the cartridge and weapons, not me.  I guess they don't know what they're doing, and someone has magically cheated physics and thermodynamics.  Study more on this before posting.

You don't lose a lot of energy going to a short barrel in 6.5 Grendel.  You retain a lot more energy than you know.  Look again at the numbers.

You made another assumption about expansion performance, assuming that because .300 BLK with the $32.99 Barnes ammo can expand to .500", that somehow any of the 6.5mm projectiles won't reach that.  In fact, most do and more.

123gr SST expands to .620" at 2663fps impact speed, and .420" at 2084fps impact speed.  Impact speeds with this bullet will always be higher than the .30 Whisper at any given range, so velocity + expansion will yield more devastating wounds on tissue.

100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip expands to .640" at 2767fps impact, .438" at 2398fps, and .410" at 2172fps.

100gr Partition expands to .510" at 2799fps, .490" at 2378fps, .490" still at 2277fps.

100gr Barnes TTSX expands to .530" at 2744fps, .416" at 2176fps, .410" at 2021fps.

129gr Nosler ABLR expands to well over .600" even at 2400fps impact, haven't recovered any yet, but wound paths have been devastating and DRT every time so far.  It expands down to 1300fps.

None of your statements about the terminal performance of .30 Whisper hold up.  It simple does not offer anything over many other cartridges in terms of terminal performance, and was never designed to do so.

Trying to fight physics and make it magically out-perform something with more mv, BC in whole numbers 2 higher, with more ogive length for expansion, with much higher sectional density, will always be a losing gamble.

An SBR Grendel out-performs the .30 Whisper in every way.  This is just fact.  I don't know what would possess someone to make the argument against that.

Someone has a real problem with accepting reality if they are going to double-down on this.

300yds with SBR 30 Whisper is equal to 6.5 Grendel SBR?  Not even close.

10.5" 6.5 Grendel exceeds 180gr .30-30.  It has twice the energy of the .30-30 at 200yds.  This is a losing argument no matter how you try to approach it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2017 3:12:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This is what I'm hearing from your 10.5" 6.5 Grendel produces fire balls at the muzzle."
"Grendel uses a different bolt and mags."
"I can find 300 AAC at Wal Mart."

If you understand physics and chemical properties of metallic cartridge propellant, you will understand the challenge of getting .300 BLK Suppressed/Subsonic to work in extreme cold.  You can have either supersonic/reliable, or subsonic/unreliable in many cases, and this is from engineers who actually make the cartridge and weapons, not me.  I guess they don't know what they're doing, and someone has magically cheated physics and thermodynamics.  Study more on this before posting.

You don't lose a lot of energy going to a short barrel in 6.5 Grendel.  You retain a lot more energy than you know.  Look again at the numbers.

You made another assumption about expansion performance, assuming that because .300 BLK with the $32.99 Barnes ammo can expand to .500", that somehow any of the 6.5mm projectiles won't reach that.  In fact, most do and more.

123gr SST expands to .620" at 2663fps impact speed, and .420" at 2084fps impact speed.  Impact speeds with this bullet will always be higher than the .30 Whisper at any given range, so velocity + expansion will yield more devastating wounds on tissue.

100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip expands to .640" at 2767fps impact, .438" at 2398fps, and .410" at 2172fps.

100gr Partition expands to .510" at 2799fps, .490" at 2378fps, .490" still at 2277fps.

100gr Barnes TTSX expands to .530" at 2744fps, .416" at 2176fps, .410" at 2021fps.

129gr Nosler ABLR expands to well over .600" even at 2400fps impact, haven't recovered any yet, but wound paths have been devastating and DRT every time so far.  It expands down to 1300fps.

None of your statements about the terminal performance of .30 Whisper hold up.  It simple does not offer anything over many other cartridges in terms of terminal performance, and was never designed to do so.

Trying to fight physics and make it magically out-perform something with more mv, BC in whole numbers 2 higher, with more ogive length for expansion, with much higher sectional density, will always be a losing gamble.

An SBR Grendel out-performs the .30 Whisper in every way.  This is just fact.  I don't know what would possess someone to make the argument against that.

Someone has a real problem with accepting reality if they are going to double-down on this.

300yds with SBR 30 Whisper is equal to 6.5 Grendel SBR?  Not even close.

10.5" 6.5 Grendel exceeds 180gr .30-30.  It has twice the energy of the .30-30 at 200yds.  This is a losing argument no matter how you try to approach it.
View Quote


You seem to be missing the point entirely.

Just because you can cut a barrel down doesn't make it a good SBR. Your Grendel is not a good SBR. Let me say that again YOUR GRENDEL IS NOT A GOOD SBR. No matter how much you love the 6.5 Grendel IT IS NOT A GOOD SBR. It has too much recoil, it has a huge flash, it loses a ton of energy compared to a full length 20 inch barrel that the Grendel was made for. Not to mention it won't run standard AR mags, can only load at most 17 rounds in a mag and needs a non standard bolt.

I can cut down a 300WM and get better performance than the Grendel but it doesn't mean it is a good choice for an SBR. I can do the same with a 50BMG but it doesn't make it a good SBR. Since this thread is about SBR hunting let me say this again your GRENDEL IS NOT A GOOD SBR.

Your posts even imply that it is not by saying things about drop and drift, expansion thresholds, retained energy and swaging the bore. All of these thing are very important to long range shooters as they are vital in getting a hit at 800 yards but not so much in most hunting engagements under 100 yards as all 300BLK hunting bullets will expand, drift and drop are minimal and it has plenty of retained energy to take most game.

The 300BLK was made for short barrels. It excels in an SBR configuration, It has more places you can buy ammo, it has more ammo to choose from, it reloads with the most common components on the planet and just like I would never say that it is a good long range gun even if I put a 26 inch barrel on it. I would also say that the Grendel is a poor choice when choosing an SBR.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SHOP FOR A GRENDEL BARREL AND YOU WILL SEE THE AVERAGE SIZE IS OVER 18 INCHES ALL THE WAY TO 24 INCHES. YOU WILL HAVE A HARD TIME EVEN FINDING ANYTHING UNDER 16 INCHES. This should tell you something.

This is about SBR hunting and anyone who thinks the Grendel is a good SBR is a delusional fanboi that is trying to put a round peg in a square hole.
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