User Panel
Posted: 12/19/2005 5:44:13 PM EDT
I'm working on an AR project and want a good trigger for personal defense use. I will be getting a RRA lower to go with my RRA upper. My only experience with factory triggers is Colt (yuck), Bushmaster (one step above yuck) and Jewell 2-Stage (sweeeeeeet).
I'm looking for a single stage trigger that is smooth, in the 3-5 lb range, smooth, preferably adjustable, smooth, reliable, and smooth. I've gritted my teeth enough on lousy triggers that smooth is a major criteria. Anything out there that fits my needs? hanks Greg Back after a three year hiatus--my how things have changed! |
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I would say Chip McCormick but you wanted adustable
JP would be my choice |
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Thanks herron.
The Chip McCormick looks really cool but there appears to be a need for anti-walk pins which is a big turn off for me. Anyone out there with experience with the CMC triggers? |
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Once you've had your pins "walk"...you'll change your mind. And don't let anyone that it hasn't happened to influence you. It's the time that IT DOES happen that matters. Anti Walk Pins ROCK!!! IMHO...No match type triggers are suitable for "Serious Work". Way too "finicky", with too many things that can go wrong. Stick with the factory trigger, and .....practice! Tack |
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Single stage, you got the JP, Accuracy speaks or the CMC (it's pertty much out of stock everywhere ATM). The first two you can adjust the weight of pull via changing trigger and hammer springs and the JP you can control the ammount of sear engagement and over-travel. On the accuracy speaks system sear/hammer engagement is pre-set by the hammer and I don't know if you can do anything about over-travel. CMC is pre-set. All will be between 3-5 lbs. If you don't like the E-clip anti-walk pins you may like the KNS pins. |
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the stock CMC E-clip pins are fine. see this thread (archive server) and my pics on page 2: archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=207316 see also (archive server again): archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=231976 ar-jedi ETA for the non-paying slugs:
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ps: why adjustable for SHTF use? ar-jedi |
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ar-jedi:
For overtravel and pull weight, but I said preferably. I'm coming to think that it does go aganst the bulletproof aspect I'm desiring. The more knobs, screws and switches, the more that can go wrong. I think I'll drop the adjustability completely and just go with smooth and a 3-5 lb weight. |
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Have you thought about selling your AR and buying an AK? Compared to an AR, it is a simpler design with less screws, pins, springs, things that can go wrong. |
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i like the looks of the geissele but have used the cmc triggers along with the kns pins for some time now without a single problem.
have two with one reaching close to the 8k mark |
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All the advice given here is very good given by people who have incredible amounts of experience. The only comment I can offer is that none of these folks are you and you are the one behind that trigger. One fact is, IMHO, that you will never notice the quality of the trigger in a true SHTF event. Absolute reliability is the one thing required if this is your "go to" SHTF weapon. Set screws, c-clips, special pins, etc. won't make up for the KISS trigger that drops the hammer every time.
In my many years I have heard almost all the excuses for misses, but it comes down to the one part of the firing mechanism that has no capacity for customization, the finger on the trigger and the brain, somewhere up the line, that controls it. A true shooter can shoot almost any gun accurately, while those who can't shoot worth a damn won't be helped by gizmos and gadgets. Get an AR box stock. When you can outshoot it, then worry about those sublte improvemnts thay may actually help and just not be excuses. FYI, I have a box stock RRA Elite that works every time. I have a Aimpoint ML3 and I'm ready. More practice, more better. |
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bigbore: I have plenty of experience with the AK in the Army and in civilian life. I had a beautiful Hungarian AK for awhile. My experience: the most god-awful rifle one will ever shoot. Reliable? Yes. Powerful? Yes. Accurate? Nope. Ergonomic? Nope. Kick Like a Mule? Yes! I don't want to start the whole AR vs. AK argument again but I will gladly take an AR over any AK any day. Ya know, a 20 year-old slap happy pickup truck will get you from point A to point B just fine but there is a reason for sport coupes, too.
Big-FED: I'm not looking for excuses--I've used everyone in the book and have made up my own plenty of times! You are right--there is no substitute for trigger time. I just want a trigger that doesn't make me grit my teeth with every shot. I remember so fondly my custom AR several years ago with a Lilja bbl , Leupold 8-25x and Jewell trigger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .OK, I'm back now. Why DID I sell that thing??? hinking.gif I make no illusions as to being anything other than an armchair warrior who will be shooting his rifle off the bench much more (hopefully) than in any confrontation. I don't want to start a fight but I want the ability to finish it. |
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For serious work I think the JP is the only trigger to have. The CM triggers are good but they have too little takeup and creep to be good for high round counts the way I see it.
They'll probably go down in less than 10,000 rounds. |
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I know you said single stage.
However... Have you tried a stock RRA NM 2 stage. Really a good trigger right out of the box. |
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I love my Colt stock trigger it is crisp. I have a different trigger in each of my guns (5). the Chip trigger is nice but I hate the pin set up. Now for SHTF I would not like this because of the pin issue, but I love it in my long range set up. Try this, stock trigger parts, cut of the hook of the hammer and then use JP yellow spring kit. I have this set up in my Dissy gun and it is great all around. But U said serious work so I would go stock trigger. O I have a White Oak RRA trigger in my Ar10 it was heavyfor me,so I changed the springs with the David Tubbs springs and lost some weight on it.
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Given the title of the thread " for serious work" and the weapon system describe, stay with a factory single stage for serious (civilian/LE weapon) non-precision use. If you have to use the weapon, you will never notice the trigger pull. For serious precision work only the KAC 2-stage. I have 2 LMT 2-stage triggers that are going to be replaced with KAC. I have T&E them for better than 9 months now. I like LMT gear, but their 2-stage trigger does not have the reliability of the KAC. IMHO I run factory single stage (Colt , LMT or BM) in all my non-precision AR platforms. |
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Seems to me the Boys working for Uncle Sugar have been killin dudes for well over 40 years with stock triggers and stock pins........In all my years workin for the man, I never saw a Pin walk or a trigger fail..... seems like their's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to find it......
best advice I reas was Big-FED's rounds and practice will overcome ANY trigger... everything else is just shortcuts..... But then again, everyone is always looking for the easy way now a days......... |
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Harv, auto triggers seem to be a bit more reliable than semi triggers. If I could have 1 trigger, it would be a KAC auto trigger. Never heard of the auto one going Tango Uniform. US military is using them in quantity now. That said, I shoot a stock trigger for now, until I find a solution that I trust not to fail on me. But this 8 pound three stage bullshit is getting old. I can barely fire a decent hammer with it without slapping it. |
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"Seems to me the Boys working for Uncle Sugar have been killin dudes for well over 40 years with stock triggers and stock pins........In all my years workin for the man, I never saw a Pin walk or a trigger fail..... seems like their's a lesson in their for anyone smart enough to find it......
best advice I reas was Big-FED's rounds and practice will overcome ANY trigger... everything else is just shortcuts..... But then again, everyone is always looking for the easy way now a days........." That's really not exactly true. The trigger will always help and that means for the guy with or without the practice. Your going to need ten to fifteen times the ammo to shoot as well as the guy with the trigger and I don't think a lot of people have the money on their own budget or the freedom in the military to fire 160+ THOUSAND rounds. I'm a HUGE advocate of everthing having a decent trigger a JP single stage with stock [auto] hammer and stock hammer spring and the yellow trigger return spring-- set for a little extra overtravel is the way my gun in Iraq was settup and everyone could feel a huge difference; yet I fired about 11,000rounds without much if any wear in the engagement and no problems whatsoever with reliability. |
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The Knight's Auto 2-stage trigger fails faster than the semi-only, possibly because of slightly extra mass of the hammer. The Army Marksmanship Unit regularly changes out bad KAC 2-stages.
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Really? Damn, that is the pits. I'm gonna have to yell at KevinB for that advice |
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people have different preferences. after having a jp in my match rifle, shooting a stock trigger is just annoying.
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From greenO
So your one sample out of Millions of rifles in the past 40+ years. not even statistically worth debating. Triggers going tits up are like car insurance. Nobody wakes up every day expecting to get in a car accident...... it just happens, and unless you have a magic 8 ball and are realy good at predicting the future you don't get the luxury of knowing when it's gonna happen. A good riflemen can take a rack grade weapon with a stock factory trigger and hit what he's aiming at. Worked for Lt Audi Murphy worked for Chesty Puller Worked for Sgt Alvin York and a whole list of other guys never heard them complain or need a fancy aftermarket "crutch"er, I mean trigger Competition /Presicion weapon, aftermarket is fine, 300 M battle rifle, just a liability waiting to catch you at the wrong time... When Jerry Micleck or Rob leathams trigger goes down, nobody runs the risk of Loosing your life, You were in a unit that let you get away with modifying your trigger, You would not have gotten away with if I were there... |
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All the guys mentioned above used what is now referred to as "NM 2 stage triggers", that were far from KISS designs. Theres no reason an AR cant have the same quality trigger as an M1 did over 60 years ago. |
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You miss the point, Serious shooters who use these weapons for serious work don't get wrapped around the axle on this Uber trigger and that. competition, etc...fine, have at it, but for reliability among the masses, it's not the trigger that's gonna decide the outcome. it's the skill and training and mindset of the guy behind the trigger that is gonna make it happen. and over 40 years of American fighting men and women have been using stock triggers to dispatch our Enemies.
Remember the PFC who was in the Pvt Lynch convoy ambush. He was awarded the Silver Star for killing at least 4-5 of the Enemy. He had to use his Forward Assist and single fire. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the last thing he was thinking about was how poor his stock trigger was and how much more accurate he would be if only he had an aftermarket trigger .......... |
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Harv, fact of the matter is, if a good trigger was made that was AS RELIABLE as stock, it would be a better tool. Like I keep saying, the 8 pound triggers I keep getting in my carbines make it hard to even fire a decent hammer. I won't pretend to be a great fighter, but I am a good shooter and find the 8 pound trigger to be much more difficult to use. I still use it because it doesnt break, and I don't trust the aftermarket triggers. There is no reason a soldier can't be a hell of a fighter AND have a decent trigger in his rifle. All this crap I keep hearing about how no one will notice their trigger when they are shooting at people is just that, crap. Sure you won't feel it--but that doesnt mean its not a factor. And if I'm gonna have an adrenaline response and jerk the trigger, I would rather be jerking on a 4 pound trigger than an 8 pound trigger. |
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How many officers and soldiers (MARSOC) carry semi-custom to full blown custom 1911's which all have hand fitted hammers/sears? Nobody in this thread is talking about a rifle for the masses, and regardless of your opinion it is possible to have to have a non stock FCG that is 100% reliable. I wouldn't trust a new mil spec FCG without inspection (30x magnification in my case), testing, firing a significant numbers of rounds and then inspecting again (there have been mil spec FCGs that didn't get properly case hardened and in such a case they will fail). The same applies to a non stock FCG. Of course you have to have the right mind set to win a fight along with the right training and skills, that's a given. But you will be faster and more accurate with a predictable clean breaking trigger. If you don't believe me get your timer out and test it, you can't cheat when your on the clock (with as much as your talking about training I assume you do have a shooting timer). If your in a fight with people shooting back do you think being faster and more accurate might just matter? |
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"people have different preferences. after having a jp in my match rifle, shooting a stock trigger is just annoying."
BIG + 1 I'll bet that POG motherfucker who was single firing his M16 was thinking "BOY I WISH I HAD KEPT THIS BASTARD CLEAN." "So your one sample out of Millions of rifles in the past 40+ years. not even statistically worth debating." The trigger has probably 30-50 thousandths of disconector engagement easy it's not goint to give up the ghost any time soon. At any rate it's probably more statistically viable than your lack of any example whatsoever. "A good riflemen can take a rack grade weapon with a stock factory trigger and hit what he's aiming at." Your missing the point-- I'm a good rifleman [have five consecutive peacetime expert quals with stock triggers to prove that] and I can produce the same accuracy in 1/3 the time or less with a good trigger as the guy with the stock trigger. In combat often 1/2 a second is a long time-- that's the reason why things that allow a shooter to take an accurate shot in four tenths of a second less time are a big deal. "Worked for Lt Audi Murphy worked for Chesty Puller Worked for Sgt Alvin York and a whole list of other guys" Can you really guarantee that none of those guys touched their trigger? <I stoned my M14 trigger to the point it was probably at 3-4lbs. "never heard them complain or need a fancy aftermarket "crutch"er, I mean trigger" You never talked to them either. "Competition /Presicion weapon, aftermarket is fine, 300 M battle rifle, just a liability waiting to catch you at the wrong time... When Jerry Micleck or Rob leathams trigger goes down, nobody runs the risk of Loosing your life, You were in a unit that let you get away with modifying your trigger, You would not have gotten away with if I were there..." I wouldn't have worked for you either-- I'm not a fucking lemming following any dumbass over the edge to my death. Neither were the guys that worked with me. |
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Wow I don't even know where to start, how about this ignorant statment for starters
Originally from GreenO
So PFC Patrick Miller, the guy who was caught in an Ambush, shot in the Arm, and kills a seven man Iraqi Mortar team, a Soldier that fought until he could fight no more, a Soldier who was awarded his countries 3 rd highest decoration for bravery is a Pouge (Correct spelling) motherfucker??? is that about right? GreenO
So they hand you one of the match M14's that the State Hipower shooters had been using for years (yeah, I know where you got your M14 from) And you decide with all of your Knowledge your gonna take a stone to the sear and "adjust it" to 3-4 lbs. You pack your trigger weight scale with you as well?? Yet your the same guy who "Highly recommends" a Airsoft knock off Mount to others' in another thread. Your the worst kind of poser, cause you did a year in Iraq and saw little combat (get your CIB?? I'm guessing not) Now your gonna use that as your base line to quantify your incredible base of knowledge. So now you have a permit to spread any bullshit you want and it will go unchallenged cause you did a "Tour" in Iraq. Which automatically means your an authority on all things Military and all things to do with weapons based on "your" Experience. 20 years from now you'll be like the "VietNam" vet who "swears" their M16 was made by mattel and we just have to believe you cause "you " were their. or the one that Swears that an AK rd will fire out of an M16 chamber cause "Charlie" designed it that way. Your the same kind guy who'll say "I used a BetaCmag in Iraq and I never had a problem" You'll be telling everyone you were a "sniper" cause you carried an M14 and had it "Customized" And yet you have the Balls to Call a Silver Star recipeint a "Pog Motherfucker" (you don't even know how to spell it) Please feel free to post your decorations and your CIB... I'm done with you. responces to anything you have to say in any future threads would be pointless and a waste of my time. I feel I just ran a race in a Special Olympic's contest...... I apologize to the rest of you for this Hijack |
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We had better luck with KAC's FA trigger than its semi version (for what ever reason).
Of course Diemaco installed the semi ones so it could be a installer issue... I have two KAC FA trigger that are each over 11k with not an issue - and seen others do the same -- that said: Sinister is observing a large sampling I beleive. |
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Harv24,
You've got to stop holding things inside, its no good for you. On a side note, my newest Colt has one of the worst triggers I've ever felt, while my oldest has one of the nicest. |
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The guys I worked with worked in sandstorms and shot their rifles often and never did any of them have problems keeping their weapons running. We in the infantry don't have sympathy for people who can't keep their issued weapons running. I have repaired rifles for fellow soldiers as we didn't have an armorer around-- Infatry soldiers know their weapons.
You know I feel sorry for the guy having to get shot and captured, and I guess he did more than the rest of his unit that appeared to be incapacitated or had given up as it seemed in the article I read about that but it isn't what infantry soldiers would do-- we don't allow ourselves to be captured if at all possible. That means we would plan on fighting to the death. Maybe he did plan on just that-- I guess it's too bad his rifle didn't function or perhaps it was fortuitous as he would not be alive today had it continued to function. I don't know the answer there. "So they hand you one of the match M14's that the State Hipower shooters had been using for years (yeah, I know where you got your M14 from) And you decide with all of your Knowledge your gonna take a stone to the sear and "adjust it" to 3-4 lbs. You pack your trigger weight scale with you as well??" You don't have a damn clue where we got our M14's from, they were brand new in box mouthballed Winchester rack grade M14's from the 60's and still in the damn wood shavings. It was a blast from the past, not some match rifle from a line somewhere. The Army competes with issued weapons (meaning A2's and M4's.) We don't get issued special weapons for competition as we are not part of the USAMTU. The DM I replaced had an M14 that was match grade modified by a guy who did that for the Army and had retired. I took his group out, he showed me how to dissasemble it as [he had been trained and I had not] and duplicated the work-- all you have to do is shorten a set of hooks on the hammer to lighten the pull, and polish the hooks and contact surfaces to smooth it up. It's very simple and makes a huge differance in shootability. "Yet your the same guy who "Highly recommends" a Airsoft knock off Mount to others' in another thread." Yeah because I have one and it works great-- it's as solid as any-- a lot of guys are running more fragile ARMS mounts including me-- if we can say an ARMS mount is OK then we can say the far stronger airsoft mount is by default OK TOO. "Your the worst kind of poser, cause you did a year in Iraq and saw little combat (get your CIB?? I'm guessing not) Now your gonna use that as your base line to quantify your incredible base of knowledge. So now you have a permit to spread any bullshit you want and it will go unchallenged cause you did a "Tour" in Iraq. Which automatically means your an authority on all things Military and all things to do with weapons based on "your" Experience." I didn't see a lot of combat compared to soldiers I know who fought in Vietnam, but I did get personally shot at on over 30 seperate occaisions and did return fire and at times iniciate contact and did get mortared and rocket attacked more times than I could count. The enemy did try to blow my guys up and did kill a few of them. And we killed some of them. I don't believe the tour in Iraq means anything but that I earned the right not to die and to come back to see all the spoiled people who don't understand what kind of world they live in. "20 years from now you'll be like the "VietNam" vet who "swears" their M16 was made by mattel and we just have to believe you cause "you " were their. or the one that Swears that an AK rd will fire out of an M16 chamber cause "Charlie" designed it that way. Your the same kind guy who'll say "I used a BetaCmag in Iraq and I never had a problem You'll be telling everyone you were a "sniper" cause you carried an M14 and had it "Customized" I don't even know how to respond to this garbage. Now you are defaming Vietnam veterans? I didn't have a Beta C-mag in Iraq. I couldn't tell you how it would run. I know someone in the company I replaced had one but I don't know if they actually used it or could answer that. I was a designated marksman in a company that did not have attached sniper support. We worked in a sniper role but were not official snipers or schooled. The Company that replaced us from the 101st came in with an entire platoon of Recon Scout/Snipers [some of their shooters were schooled and others were not] attached [bolstering their force to more than 50% larger than ours had been], and that should give you an idea of the work we did as we did not have any sniper support for the year we worked in the same AO where the Army felt a platoon of scout snipers were needed. |
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Harv24 &Green0,
I would let it go! This neither the place, nor the time to be bashing each other as Vets. Just let it go. |
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It seems this thread graduated from a discussion on match triggers to one involving hair triggers. I agree with pcurtis, let's just step back and realize there are different points of view. No one is going to convince the other as to the right or wrong.
This forum is for all of us to learn from this is not the smart side we should show. Please? |
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Can someone please walk me through slow and simple how to use some JP parts/springs in conjunction with the issue trigger?
Also, if I were to lightly hone the contact surfaces, would that adversely affect the life of the trigger job? I have no idea how deep the surface hardening on the issue trigger parts goes into the metal. Can the metal be rehardened by a cyanide process? What I want to do is optimize trigger performance. Higher headquarters would go bat-shit if I ordered 25 KAC 2-stage FA triggers for our pop-guns. I have more pressing needs for the money anyway. I already have a case of chrome silicon springs and Magpul followers for everyone's magazines (and a full case of new mags to replace any worn and/or defective ones). Any cosmic trigger engagement surface lubes that don't gum up with fine sand, dust or mud? Does it make sense to go through and measure all the pin holes in the receivers and instal anti-walk pin assemblies where the holes are worn too large, or have assumed an eliptical shape? I will personally run a two stage semi-auto trigger, but that is just my habit and preferance. Time and ammunition supplies will be limited to get the guys up to speed for self defense; good triggers will really help squeeze as much value as possible out of our training time before the next leg of our SWA tours. Thanks for your input. lawndart |
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I've got a JP single stage adjustable trigger with speed hammer I'm going to sell. I tried it an prefer the RR 2 stage. I have reworked stock triggers in my other ARs and want the 2 stage in my precision AR for the different "feel".
$80 shipped if you're interested. |
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While I think a stock trigger is fine for most work, if you are going to use a magnified optic or stainless barrel a new trigger will be necessary to wring 100% out of your rifle. On a pencil barreled carbine, a trigger that was 6 pounds or so and had a proper reset is all that is really required. Of course, some triggers are FAR worse than that, but a G.I. trigger can be armorer fit to 6 pounds and work perfectly.
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I very much appreciate your time and reply. A-2's in the rack right now. I'll work the crew on the fundamentals x 3. This is a reserve outfit of doctors, nurses & medics (FST). It would be nice to get 5-10 of them through gunsite or some such as a team. Thank God they can afford it. It is very nice to see these folks put their nuts on the anvil, and get out in the dirt, "because the job needs doing". My additional duty is to ensure no one gets so much as scratched. Thanks again, lawndart |
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Do not fuck around with the triggers on your rifles unless you want to see a Negligent Discharge from these troops. No offense but that is just asking for trouble. you want to prepare them for Combat. Scrounge up as much ammo as you can and get the on the range. Playing with triggers and "Tuning" them is not the answer. Practice the 4 basic princibles of sight picture/Sight alignment/trigger press and breath control. Have them dryfire. teach them the different carry positions, show them how to manuever and the 4 safety rules. their are a lot of drills and excercises to teach them and have them learn. Illegally modifying Government property (and that's what you doing unless you have a small arms Amorer MOS) is not the answer to weapons proficiency. Work on Battle drills and react to ambush drills and what to look for in convoys, Work on your METL tasks and learn what's important (and it's not messing with your triggers) Medical units are notoriously behind the curve in basic marksmenship skills to include handling live weapons. the last thing you want to do is give them hair triggers and turn them loose.... |
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I think that is worth repeating. |
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What a whiny cunt thread.
Why do you guys have a difficult time sticking question in the topic? Look at and discuss mechanics and experience with different triggers. Don't question abilities of the shooter. Or assert that he should use a standard trigger because of this or that. Or relay half baked senarios & military stories. Why can't the pros & cons of each trigger be discussed without a ton of arguing? |
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because people need to justify their big money purchases one way or another? Anyway I have a Geissele I will be trying out in 2-3 days, I will let yall know if it works great or explodes or somewhere in between. |
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RustedAce,
The Geiselle looks like a sweet trigger. The disconnector designed looks better than everything else I have seen.....especially compared to the POS disconnector design on an LMT/Armalite trigger. I was considering the Geiselle myself, before I cheaped out on a $75 RRA. I am interested in hearing your report |
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My wife got me the CMC 2-stage trigger and KNS pins for Christmas. It's a huge improvement over my stock trigger. I was actually starting to get cramps in my trigger finger from shooting the stock one so much! (or maybe not enough? ) Ouch!
I was told by a reputable dealer here who build lots and lots of uppers for guys in the sandbox that he has put tens of thousands of rounds downrange with a CMC trigger and it has yet to fail. I trust his judgement as he surely has much more experience than I do. I don't think you would be disappointed with the CMC. If you search the EE you can find some dealers that have it in stock still...at least they did a week or two ago before Christmas. The Geissel (sp?) also looks very nice. Wow, is it expensive though. |
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