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Posted: 5/4/2004 10:28:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 11:45:14 AM EST by pathfinder74]
Edit to say: In regards to AR's (so this doesn't get locked ) I understand the shortest the overal length a barrel can be is 16" for .civ. That can be with a comp that brings a 14.5" to 16".

Questions:

1.) Can you use a suppressor for the same purpose: to bring the barrel to .civ legal length. From what I know I am guessing no unless it is permantly attached to meet this criteria.

2.) When the AWB ban goes away, will the limits on barrel length stay the same: 16" for .civ?

3.) Going back to the comp extending the length in order to be legal, does that mean that those people who have a 14.5" barrel cannot remove the 1.5" comp after the AWB goes away in order to install a flash hider, unless the flash hider is of equal length to the comp?

4.) If you go through the whole process of getting a suppressor, is that suppressor registered for use wth a specific weapon, or can you swap it out with anything you have that is set up to accept it?

5.) Does the average gunsmith do barrel threading to fit a suppressor?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:48:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 10:50:22 AM EST by otto_esq]
I can answer some of your questions.

Your main assumption is correct, in that unless the rifle is registered as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) under 26 USC 5845 (National Firearms Act, or NFA) the overall barrel length must be 16 inches or greater.

1. You are right, the suppressor (also an NFA governed item) must be permanently attached on a non-NFA registered SBR rifle.

2. Yes, because the "Assault Weapons Ban" (AWB) is a different law (18 USC 921 et al.) than the NFA; the NFA is not going to go away without a specific Act of Congress.

3. The finished length must be 16 inches or over for Non-NFA registered rifles, either with a (current) muzzle brake or (future) flash hider.
Note, and legal disclaimer: it is probably best to do the swap in ways to avoid having a short barreled rifle in the "in between" phase by performing the change with no lower receivers anywhere nearby. People rant against "constructive possession" of an unregistered SBR, but it is a legal reality.

4. (one for the Form 4 crowd; I think you can swap it, but am not sure)

5. Different cans attach different ways with different threads. Threading a barrel or installing a barrel mount does not seem too hard, but until the AWB expires, the suppressor mount counts as an assault weapon feature and is post-ban only.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:52:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 10:54:24 AM EST by M4Madness]
1.) Can you use a suppressor for the same purpose: to bring the barrel to .civ legal length. From what I know I am guessing no unless it is permantly attached to meet this criteria. It would have to be permanently-attached unless the rifle was registered as a SBR. And currently, it would also have to be a pre-ban AR-15 due to the barrel threads.

2.) When the AWB ban goes away, will the limits on barrel length stay the same: 16" for .civ? Yes.

3.) Going back to the comp extending the length in order to be legal, does that mean that those people who have a 14.5" barrel cannot remove the 1.5" comp after the AWB goes away in order to install a flash hider, unless the flash hider is of equal length to the comp? The flash suppressor would have to be long enough to make 16", and be permanently attached unless an SBR.

4.) If you go through the whole process of getting a suppressor, is that suppressor registered for use wth a specific weapon, or can you swap it out with anything you have that is set up to accept it? You can install it on any weapon that is legally threaded to accept it.

5.) Does the average gunsmith do barrel threading to fit a suppressor? Probably. Most suppressor manufacturers also offer this service.


EDIT: otto_esq beat me by a few minutes.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:23:54 AM EST
Maybe so, but at least we didn't give conflicting answers.
And your #4 was definitive.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:43:56 AM EST
1.) Can you use a suppressor for the same purpose: to bring the barrel to .civ legal length. From what I know I am guessing no unless it is permantly attached to meet this criteria. It would have to be permanently-attached unless the rifle was registered as a SBR. And currently, it would also have to be a pre-ban AR-15 due to the barrel threads.

I have been grossly misinformed, for lack of better terms. I didn't realize what SBR was... having been around here for a little while and seen it thrown around between Special Edition Black Rifle and Scary Black Rifle, I didn't actually think there was any legitimacy to the term SBR . Duh on my part. How can you legally own an SBR, which I am now to understand is a rifle with a barrel length less than 16"... Is that strictly LEO, or does it just require a tax stamp like a suppressor?

3.) Going back to the comp extending the length in order to be legal, does that mean that those people who have a 14.5" barrel cannot remove the 1.5" comp after the AWB goes away in order to install a flash hider, unless the flash hider is of equal length to the comp? The flash suppressor would have to be long enough to make 16", and be permanently attached unless an SBR.

Do they even make flash suppressors this length as it stands right now? And if not do you think that manufacturers will start if the AWB ban goes away?

4.) If you go through the whole process of getting a suppressor, is that suppressor registered for use wth a specific weapon, or can you swap it out with anything you have that is set up to accept it? You can install it on any weapon that is legally threaded to accept it.

But in order to install it on a rifle you have to have it treaded or have a suppressor mount which means you need to have a preban upper to do this? Right? You can't just take a brand new BM XM to the gunsmith and tell him to thread your barrel, because you would then be in violation of the AWB, right?

Wow, learn something new every day... I never pieced some of this together.... probably because I didn't have a full interest in it.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 11:51:08 AM EST
ps. on the subject of NFA

What else falls into that? Shorter/collapsible stocks?

What is the price to get the permits to buy one of those? Is it really worth it to have an 1.5 to 4.5 inches shaved off the end, especially considering the potential of the AWB going away?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 3:09:16 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 4:54:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 5:00:56 PM EST by SBR7_11]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
1.) Can you use a suppressor for the same purpose: to bring the barrel to .civ legal length. From what I know I am guessing no unless it is permantly attached to meet this criteria. It would have to be permanently-attached unless the rifle was registered as a SBR. And currently, it would also have to be a pre-ban AR-15 due to the barrel threads.

I have been grossly misinformed, for lack of better terms. I didn't realize what SBR was... having been around here for a little while and seen it thrown around between Special Edition Black Rifle and Scary Black Rifle, I didn't actually think there was any legitimacy to the term SBR . Duh on my part. How can you legally own an SBR, which I am now to understand is a rifle with a barrel length less than 16"... Is that strictly LEO, or does it just require a tax stamp like a suppressor?


Look at my board name, "legitemacy for SBR"? Because I am allowed by Federal and State law. If your sate allow SBR, a simple Form-1, prints, pics, $200 (tax stamp), CLEO sign off, and you be all set. I have 2, i has 3 uppers, in 2 different caliber,,,,, the 2nd is an Uzi, with 4 calibers, 3 currently working, 4th not used in years. I'm just a regular joe, not LEO....


3.) Going back to the comp extending the length in order to be legal, does that mean that those people who have a 14.5" barrel cannot remove the 1.5" comp after the AWB goes away in order to install a flash hider, unless the flash hider is of equal length to the comp? The flash suppressor would have to be long enough to make 16", and be permanently attached unless an SBR.


A 14.5" barrel alone assembled to a rifle is SBR--(NFA), the 1.5" has to be permanently attached to bring the most fixed length of the barrel to 16" to NON-NFA.


4.) If you go through the whole process of getting a suppressor, is that suppressor registered for use wth a specific weapon, or can you swap it out with anything you have that is set up to accept it? You can install it on any weapon that is legally threaded to accept it.

But in order to install it on a rifle you have to have it threaded or have a suppressor mount which means you need to have a preban upper to do this? Right? You can't just take a brand new BM XM to the gunsmith and tell him to thread your barrel, because you would then be in violation of the AWB, right?


If the rifle is a semi-auto that that is a pre-ban, it may sport exposed threads to allow attachment of assorted muzzle devices..... Putting a silencer on a "bolt" is fine, it is not a semi-auto, so no pre/post issues there. I got my 22-250 threaded to take my WARRIOR.

Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:03:03 PM EST
Anyone know of a good NFA for Dummies link that gives all this information?

So really NFA just allows a rifle to be in a pre-ban/LEO configuraion (sans auto/burst)? Barrel length, collapsing stock, and being allowed to thread the barrel for a suppressor are about the sum of it, right?

No sure I would even consider doing if if the AWB sunsets... Seems to me one of the perks is about to become common law (or lack there of).
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 5:15:31 PM EST
NO,,, NFA governs machines guns, short barrel rifles (barrel less than 16"), short barrel shotgun (barrel less than 18"), AOW, silencers, destructive devises (should be obvious).


Short Barrel Rifle, in the semi-auto form, still falls under the AW ban crap--> it is a semi-auto rifle.
Thus a pre-ban can still have pre-ban or post features-------------- BUT a post-ban must follow all the post-ban rules.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:16:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
NO,,, NFA governs machines guns, short barrel rifles (barrel less than 16"), short barrel shotgun (barrel less than 18"), AOW, silencers, destructive devises (should be obvious).



I meant when discussing AR's.


Short Barrel Rifle, in the semi-auto form, still falls under the AW ban crap--> it is a semi-auto rifle.
Thus a pre-ban can still have pre-ban or post features-------------- BUT a post-ban must follow all the post-ban rules.



You kinda lost me here. It sounds like you're saying if the AWB goes away barrell length rstrictions will go with it?
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:37:59 AM EST
i think they mentioned this up above.

the features that make an AW is what will sunset an no longer be an issue.

barrel length is coveref under a seperate act.

the NFA. National Firearms Act?
that one was done prior to the AWB.

so the AWB has no effect on Barrel Length
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:09:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 1:14:26 PM EST by RAMBOSKY]
Ya'll be careful, otto_esq sounds like he might be an ATF agent.

They have offices if Fairfax, VA.

Hi Otto. All my barrels are 16" or more.


Link Posted: 5/5/2004 7:09:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
Ya'll be careful, otto_esq sounds like he might be an ATF agent. hey
Hi Otto. All my barrels are 16" or more. hr



hy.gifhy.gif

did i mention i only have bolt actions? hinking.gif
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:53:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/6/2004 6:09:19 AM EST by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By willyj:

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
Ya'll be careful, otto_esq sounds like he might be an ATF agent.

They have offices if Fairfax, VA.

Hi Otto. All my barrels are 16" or more.








did i mention i only have bolt actions?




Hello Rambosky

Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning.

No, no connection to the federal government since my discharge from the Corps over 12 years ago. (that long already...?)
However, I am a DC attorney, admitted to practice before several federal courts, and certainly know how to research the law. You can check out my cover story:
www.baisemiller.com/ourfirm.htm
Scroll down to "Professional Directory" and my bio is listed under "Attorneys" ("Gary L. Lotridge" -- "Otto" is a nickname going back to comm school at 29 Stumps; the "Esq" came later and "OTTO ESQ" is also my VA vehicle plate -- you may see it around at some of the Maryland-Virginia IPSC and three-gun matches)

I listed my full name in the AR15.com "user info" a while back after someone accused me of hiding my real name as a part of his personal attack instead of arguing against my correction of his sloppy, hearsay-based misunderstanding of the AWB. He didn't like to be proved wrong, even in a tactful way. Its his neck...
No, we do not usually do criminal defense work, and no, I don't want any of you as clients.

I am just interested in AR's (obviously) and the laws governing my sport. I was frustrated a while back about people having arguments in various forums about the NFA and the Assault Weapons Ban and what was legal, what wasn't, etc, without anyone actually consulting or referencing the law.
I still see it sometimes, but when I intervien, I make sure it is either by quoting the law or a judge (or judges) ruling on the law.
(BTW: an ATF FAQ may help understanding but the real law is only found in the US Code or Code of Federal Regulation (USC and CFR, respectively) or in a judicial interpretation of the USC. Your local FFL dealer is not a definitive source.)

Also if you are interested, you can check out a few of my other recent posts:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=237729&page=1
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=188000&page=1
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=188009&page=1

In each of the cases above I merely tried to explain the law so that other board member and the general public can benefit from this site. We gun owners do not need any more negative press due to inadvertent legal violations. Is this my soap box? No, its just a hobby and I don't take myself so seriously.
I hope you can see from these I have fellow AR owners' best interest in mind when I try to explain the law. Congress didn't make it easy on gun owners to know what they "passed." (well, in one repect they did...)

Sorry for hijacking the thread with this.
Cheers, Otto

[fixed a link]
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:35:34 AM EST
Actually, a careful reading of the NFA reveals that it is really about taxes. The tax return is, in reality, a registration, and the tax stamp is really a license. And the NFA covers "firearms", then goes on to exempt things it says are not "firearms", such as what we are allowed to legally own now without all the tax stamp BS, handguns, rifles with barrels over 16", shotguns with barrels over 18", overall length over 26", bores up to .50 caliber, etc. A simple amendment to remove those exemptions and we would have to register and license everything. Also, any item can be moved from category to category by a declaration of the Secretary of Treasury, who is not appointed to position for his expertise on firearms and their use and misuse. He is the head Tax collector. This gun control by fiat is how the Sec of Treas declared M855 (greentips) to be not AP, and declared the "street sweeper" type shotguns (revolving mags, pistol grip, etc) to be "distructive devices" (like hand grenades, bombs, motars, etc). Just because he says so. He can tax what he wants to tax by changing definitions. It is in the law.

You see, way back in 1934 they knew that they could not just outlaw guns, that was unconstitutional, so they played the "let's see how we can get around this" game... and came up with the theory, "we can't outlaw them, but let's tax and regulate them out of the hands of ordinary people." So, they put $200 taxes on everything they wanted to restrict, and gave plenty of exceptions... such as to corporations. You see, this enabled corporations, specifically coal mine and steel foundaries, the ability to get machine guns so they could mow down striking workers.

This dangerous law is a serious threat to our freedoms and needs to be removed from the books.
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