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Posted: 10/4/2004 6:34:05 AM EST
OK, So I take a brand new Armalite to the range to brake in....

Fire a shot, clean, lube, shot, clean, lube, shot, clean, done...

Ok time for some fun....put in a 30 rounder...fire, everthing is ok, try to fire again, "click" WTF!?!

So it continues to do this....first round which is manually chambered fires, the next won't. So I figure it might be the mag....so I go through 5 different mag manufactures....same thing....a few times it worked for about 4-5 shots then would stop.

Finally after getting really pissed I noticed that after the first shot, the bolt carrier would go back, but the bolt wouldn't go back far enough to grab another round push it into the chamber. In fact, half the time it would just not load a round, other time it would jam on a round, the other part the bolt just got stuck open.

So what the hell is going on here?

It has a colapsable stock on it and I wonder if thats the problem...like it's not letting the bolt come back far enough? HELP GUYS! An AR should work outa the box!

ANd to make things worse....When I tried to adjust the stock, I got spooked by a shotgun going off and the pin thingy that holds the buffer spring in shot out and I lost it! So not only does it not shot, but it's missing parts now! Any one got an extra pin for a fellow AR guy?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:38:26 AM EST
What ammo are you using?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:39:15 AM EST
You don't need that pin to function the weapon.

I don't completely understand what your malfunction was, but if it is not cycling all the way, it sounds like a lack of gas pressure.

You haven't changed anything with the buffer or the stock, have you? If not - check the gas key on the bolt carrier, make sure it is on tight.

What kind of ammo are you shooting?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:41:51 AM EST
What ammo are you shooting? Is the rifle chambered in 223 or 5.56? Yes there is a difference and yes it can change the way your gun cycles. My Bushmaster is chambered in 5.56 and every time I have tried to shoot 223 out of it, I get cycling problems. Now I only shoot 5.56 and I never have problems...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:43:09 AM EST
Also if you have a chrome lined barrel on that gun, its not necessary to clean after every single shot. That is how you break in a steel barrel, not a chrome lined one.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:51:49 AM EST
I used Remington UMC .223

I know on the side of the rifle it says 5.56mm but doesn't every AR?

I don't think there is anything special about this Armalite A2.....

How can the rifle function with out the pin? I guess it could...but everytime you opened it the spring would fly out right?

There is a hole in the back of the buffer tube...is that normal to be open? I wouldn't think that would matter right?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:55:30 AM EST
I thought I read a post once that if the buffer tube is not on just the right way the charrier wont function properly. Could this colapsable stock be the reason?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:58:28 AM EST
Assuming the bolt could open all the way when you started shooting (otherwise how would you get the round in).

Sounds like you're telestock wasn't installed properly. If the buffere detent pin could fly out then the stock isn't screwed in far enough.

The Detent pin was the part that was preventing your bolt carrier from going all the way back (consider yourself lucky it didn't lock up the carbine).

The firearm will still function with the pin and the spring removed. However I'd take the gun back to the dealer (or call up Armalite) and have them replace the pin & spring along with PROPERLY installing the stock (I'm assuming you don't have a telestock wrench).

While you're at it please measure the length of the buffer spring (to make sure they used the correct one - there is a shorter one for the telestocks).
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:00:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
I know on the side of the rifle it says 5.56mm but doesn't every AR?


No - and some that are marked 5.56 are really chambered for .223...



How can the rifle function with out the pin? I guess it could...but everytime you opened it the spring would fly out right?


It will function fine if the pin AND SPRING are removed - if the spring is still there it can muck up the action.



There is a hole in the back of the buffer tube...is that normal to be open? I wouldn't think that would matter right?


The hole should be there.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:03:16 AM EST
Loose gas key?
Wrong buffer?
Wrong recoil spring?
Action hasn't been cleaned/lubed (bolt, bolt carrier, upper recvr.)?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:03:16 AM EST
"No - and some that are marked 5.56 are really chambered for .223..."

Not to hijack your thread, but is there any proof of this??? Seems like a bogus statement...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:03:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
Assuming the bolt could open all the way when you started shooting (otherwise how would you get the round in).

Sounds like you're telestock wasn't installed properly. If the buffere detent pin could fly out then the stock isn't screwed in far enough.

The Detent pin was the part that was preventing your bolt carrier from going all the way back (consider yourself lucky it didn't lock up the carbine).

The firearm will still function with the pin and the spring removed. However I'd take the gun back to the dealer (or call up Armalite) and have them replace the pin & spring along with PROPERLY installing the stock (I'm assuming you don't have a telestock wrench).

While you're at it please measure the length of the buffer spring (to make sure they used the correct one - there is a shorter one for the telestocks).



Your last statement was my theory. It just occured to me that his dealer may have done a half-ass job at installng a collpasible stock on a formerly "post-ban" configured rifle.

WS4LIF - find out if your dealer fucked with it - make them fix it if so. They may have put a full-length spring or buffer into the shorter length stock - or it may have just been the pin hanging up on something.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:05:24 AM EST
I'm confused a little here and go easy on me....

The telestock is aftermarket...not from Armlite...and I'm not sending the rifle in, I want to fix this myself and I don't believe in warrenty because NO company has honored any for me.

The telestock was in far enough to keep the pin down....THAT is the part im missing now, not the buffer spring. I lost it trying to adjust the stock.

The stock was alittle lose, but why would that matter?

The tele stock had the spring and tube thingy it came with installed, NOT the A2 ones.

And it better not use specail ammo, or does any one want an Armalite?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:08:46 AM EST
As far as lube goes....it had none, other then what might have come out of the factory with....

I did put oil into the bolt/carrier after this started happening to see if it would help...it did not.

And a friend installed the stock infront of me....maybe some one could post a thread with proper install of the stock with pics? Also I am a little confused on the pin thingy....the stock just screws in just over the lip of it to hold it down right?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:11:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

And it better not use specail ammo, or does any one want an Armalite?



Uh, not a broke-ass one

Could the gas port and front sight be mis-aligned?

Gas rings all look in good shape?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:13:56 AM EST
It's brand new man....I'd hope so....

But I don't know how to check....either. I've take the bolt out but not fully disasimbled it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:20:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 7:21:29 AM EST by Adam_White]

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
I'm confused a little here and go easy on me....

The telestock is aftermarket...not from Armlite...and I'm not sending the rifle in, I want to fix this myself and I don't believe in warrenty because NO company has honored any for me.

The telestock was in far enough to keep the pin down....THAT is the part im missing now, not the buffer spring. I lost it trying to adjust the stock.

The stock was a little lose, but why would that matter?

The tele stock had the spring and tube thingy it came with installed, NOT the A2 ones.

And it better not use specail ammo, or does any one want an Armalite?



It doesn't need special ammo - people asked that question in case you were using crap or undepowered ammo.

Interesting how your "brand new" Armalite has now become an "altered" Armalite. Did you ever shoot it before the stock change?

As others have said check the gas system to make sure every thing is solid - that gas key on your carrier should not move, and the gas rings on your bolt should be staggered.

Since you have altered the stock (read back to my first post - its like I have ESP or something ), odds are that is the source of your problem. Where did you get the stock, who makes it, etc. If it is a standard carbine stock, there is no reason for you to have been unscrewing it - what did you see that made you decide that might help? What do you mean, it was "a little loose" - was the receiever extension / buffer tube itself loose? Something must have caught your eye.

What are you calling the "bolt?" What were you doing to "clean" - running a patch through the barrel?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:20:58 AM EST
Im not trying to be a jerk, but it doesnt sound like your a person with a lot of experience with an AR. Thats ok, we all started at some point, but I would have a seasoned veteran take a look at it. I would not venture out to disassemble it yourself. Just my opinion....
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:25:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:25:56 AM EST
Most of us learn by doing.

Well, not new to guns but new to AR's. (First one)

Basicly It's got all sorts of custom crap on it now....and no I have never shot it first. I don't have those means living in a city. 200 mile trip to shoting area.

To me the stock isn't of the highest quality....it's your standard plastic colapsable stock. The ring that holds the back plate of the stock on the the lower was only hand tightend and was alittle lose.



Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:29:39 AM EST
"What were you doing to "clean" - running a patch through the barrel?"

Patch with hoppes....about 10 times till clean....pretty standard....then some hoppes oil, then wipe out again. Why? Hope your not just looking for something to bitch at me about?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:29:43 AM EST
You need a Telestock wrench to properly tighten your telestock. There are 2 different types of wrenches also, so its best to find out what stock you have first. Where did you buy it? Also, what is all the other "custom crap" you have on it?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:32:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Does the bolt lock back on the last round out of the magazine? Can you manually lock the bolt open with the bolt catch? What kind of mags?



last round? It never made it passed the forth round if lucky.

Yes, it would manually lock.

Mag type isn't the problem here...I used 5 different manufactures and the stock Armalite 10 rounder.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:34:16 AM EST
Is it possible you got a chunk of patch stuck in the gas port hole on the barrel? Sorry to ask the same question again, but why were you cleaning the barrel after every round?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:34:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
Most of us learn by doing.

Well, not new to guns but new to AR's. (First one)

Basicly It's got all sorts of custom crap on it now....and no I have never shot it first. I don't have those means living in a city. 200 mile trip to shoting area.

To me the stock isn't of the highest quality....it's your standard plastic colapsable stock. The ring that holds the back plate of the stock on the the lower was only hand tightend and was alittle lose.






That ring only holds the tube in place, it shouldn't have any play once it is screwed into the receiver. If there was play in the tube, I'd guess that would be the culprit - inconsistent binding of the buffer and spring would likely explain your symptoms. My guess is that you are not at a range now to test this out, however.

So do this:

1) Screw in the recoever extension unitl it starts to cover the whole where your detent and spring used to be.

2) Makes sure the plate that covers your takedown pin spring is flush against the reciever - and you don't lose it as well!

3) Tighten the bolt nut thingy up against it, using a freakin' spanner wrench.

4) Stick you spring and buffer in there, hold it with a finger as you close the rifle - again, the pin is just to make this process less annoying.

5) Let us know what happens your next trip to the range.

If there WASN'T play in the tube - it could be something else. You might want to tell me what other "custom crap" you have installed!
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:36:22 AM EST
YES YES YES, what is the other custom crap you speak of??????
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:37:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
"What were you doing to "clean" - running a patch through the barrel?"

Patch with hoppes....about 10 times till clean....pretty standard....then some hoppes oil, then wipe out again. Why? Hope your not just looking for something to bitch at me about?



Nope, just trying to rule out anything that could mess with the gas system.

Also, when you said you never took the "bolt" apart - I am assuming you meant the bolt carrier - and most people take that apart as a basic cleaning process before ever shooting a new rifle. (it is the only way to check the gas rings that a few of us have mentioned as well).
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:39:59 AM EST
Haha...

I knew saying custom crap from an asumbed newbie what set off lights....

Nothing that would mess with operation other then the stock (Harris bipod, vertical grip, site rail, new grip etc, etc, etc.).

I'm going to take it in this week to have the barrel thread and a FF tube installed alowing with a A3 flat top upper and a Redi-mag....I think I'm going to can the colapsable stock any ways....I don't think it's for me.

Does any one happen to have an extra pin I could have or purchase I guess? And what is it's exact name?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:42:36 AM EST
Can you at least tell us where you bought the dang telescoping stock? Is there a brand name on it?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:43:55 AM EST
"Is it possible you got a chunk of patch stuck in the gas port hole on the barrel? Sorry to ask the same question again, but why were you cleaning the barrel after every round? "

This is interesting....I can't say I can rule it out. How would I check? It does seem like it might not be getting enough gas into it.

The last time it locked back....the carrier was all the way back but the center(what I would call the bolt) was sticking out over the mag.

About breaking it in....I have read on here to do this, I read in the manual to do this, I have been told by gun shops to do this....and it seems like a good idea to me and can't hurt anything.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:46:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jivana108:
Can you at least tell us where you bought the dang telescoping stock? Is there a brand name on it?



At a gun show! No brand name, in a clear plastic bag. Came with two buffer springs...told one was an extra one, and the buffer thingy that goes in the spring.

It's a Genaric telestock.....?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:52:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
...

Does any one happen to have an extra pin I could have or purchase I guess? And what is it's exact name?



You lost the buffer retainer. Some places may call it a buffer retainer pin. The spring is the buffer retainer spring.

Most lower receiver repair kits have them - I recommend you order a whole spring and detent set for the future, and those missing parts in particular. This way, you won't be spending more on shipping than the parts are worth. If you keep tinkering with that thing, the other parts will come in handy.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:53:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:54:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
Most of us learn by doing.

Well, not new to guns but new to AR's. (First one)

Basicly It's got all sorts of custom crap on it now....and no I have never shot it first. I don't have those means living in a city. 200 mile trip to shoting area.

To me the stock isn't of the highest quality....it's your standard plastic colapsable stock. The ring that holds the back plate of the stock on the the lower was only hand tightend and was alittle lose.




Are you in Oregon? There is no big city other than Portland and there are several rifle ranges within 30 minutes. Head over to the Oregon forum if you are there. There are plenty of AR guys there that can help. Someone might even have a spare pin.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:58:16 AM EST
But again..WHY would a lose buffer tube make the rifle NOT shoot? It wasn't that lose and it was over the buffer pin.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:01:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
But again..WHY would a lose buffer tube make the rifle NOT shoot? It wasn't that lose and it was over the buffer pin.



Your bolt carrier actually slides into that tube. If it was canted, it could have been binding up.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:17:17 AM EST
Seems like this "rugged" rifle should still be able to work even with a slighty cantered stock. And it couldn't be because the plate on the back has a grove in in and will only go on straight. The only thing that could have been was if it was screwed in too far and that was what I was checking when the pin flew out.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:17:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
The last time it locked back....the carrier was all the way back but the center(what I would call the bolt) was sticking out over the mag.





Well that can't be good.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:19:48 AM EST



What kind of magazines were you using?

Don't try to tell those of us who know these rifles how to fix them when you can't even get yours to work.



Well, thats not a helpful coment.....

I used Thermo, Orlite, Eagle, then went to the metal ones, and then the stock one. My NIB USGI ones will hopefully be here today.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:27:23 AM EST
Geez this thread is going nowhere fast.......
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:32:54 AM EST
Thank you all for the helpful coments....

But please don't bitch at me because I can't make it to a range every day or because I own some plastic mags or whatever that is not related to the problem.

I believe the stock could be the problem...but I want to fully understand the logic behind this...I mean this is a serious problem and I don't see how a stock put on probally 99% corectly could cause such a huge failare.

How can I check the gas system? How do I fully disamble the bolt? Can I please have other suggestions on how to get this rifle to work? I will get another stock for it in about a week.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:33:13 AM EST
Tagged. I have to see how this turns out
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:36:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 8:40:58 AM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
The telestock was in far enough to keep the pin down....THAT is the part im missing now, not the buffer spring. I lost it trying to adjust the stock.


If the stock was in far enough to keep the pin down why were you playing with it? Have you read the -23&P yet? (its in the Downloads area - see INformation button above).



The stock was alittle lose, but why would that matter?


The plastic being loose isn't a problem. If the receiver extension was loose (i.e. it coule wiggle) then that COULD be an issue.



The tele stock had the spring and tube thingy it came with installed, NOT the A2 ones.


Doesn't matter - check them.

Several people have reported getting the wrong size spring with their telestocks. Looks like too many stock kits were 'thrown together' for the end of the ban. Measure it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:37:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
"What were you doing to "clean" - running a patch through the barrel?"

Patch with hoppes....about 10 times till clean....pretty standard



Not for a chrome lined barre - usually you go for 200-300 rounds before cleaning it for the first time.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:38:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
But please don't bitch at me because I can't make it to a range every day or because I own some plastic mags or whatever that is not related to the problem.



No one is bitching at you. We are getting frustrated that you asked a question(s) and are not listening. How do you know if it is not related to your problem? You don't, but we just might. Everyone here is trying to help you so please answer the questions and sit back and learn.

Magazines are the #1 reason for failures in ARs, that is why Tweak is asking. Another thing, don't use any other mags except USGI mags. Shit can those other ones.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:38:38 AM EST
I would try different ammo. I had the same type of problem with my bushmaster when I was using cheaper .223. I got some 5.56 that was loaded a little hotter, and the problem went away.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:43:35 AM EST
First the stock needs to be tight
second it can't go in to far as the upper won't mount onto it.
to check if there is a stock/ buffer problem insert an empty mag and pull the charging handle to the rear as far as you can the action should lock open. If it doesn't go back far enough to lock you may have the wrong buffer(to long).


If there doesn't seem to be any stock problems them the problem is likely in the gas system.

you can find disassembly instructions in the AR-15 section under the build it yourself section
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:45:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
But please don't bitch at me because I can't make it to a range every day or because I own some plastic mags or whatever that is not related to the problem.



No one is bitching at you. We are getting frustrated that you asked a question(s) and are not listening. How do you know if it is not related to your problem? You don't, but we just might. Everyone here is trying to help you so please answer the questions and sit back and learn.

Magazines are the #1 reason for failures in ARs, that is why Tweak is asking. Another thing, don't use any other mags except USGI mags. Shit can those other ones.



AMEN BROTHA!!!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:47:08 AM EST
And people wonder why I'm beginning to get a bad attitude toward newbies around here.

"MY NEW POS COLT WON'T SHOOT!"

"what kind of ammo and magazines are you using?"

"I HAVE USA MAHGASIENS, THE GY AT THE GUN SHOP SAID THAT'S WHAT THE SEALS USE BECAUSE THEY'RE STRONGER THAN ALUMINUM. HE SOLD ME WOLF AMMO, IT'S TOUGHER THAN THAT CHEAP BRASS STUFF. I KNO IT CAN'T BE THE AMMO OR THEM AGS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS THING? OH, AND I PUT A NEW BARREL ON IT WITH A STRAP WRENTCH, TOO."

"You've got to be fucking kidding me."

"QS, you're such an asshole!"

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:47:33 AM EST

Magazines are the #1 reason for failures in ARs, that is why Tweak is asking. Another thing, don't use any other mags except USGI mags. Shit can those other ones.


That was the first thing I checked. And they are already on the way out......and I used the stock mag as I posted before.

And what is this "US" and "YOU" thing? It's not like I'm some dumbass running around with a POS rifle taking it apart stuipedly. I am lisening but no one is saying anything other then check the stock...well I did. The ring is loose and the only other variable is that the tube can be in too far or not out far enough. It would be helpful if someone posted pics on a properly installed one(not a side shot but inside the lower).
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:53:31 AM EST



"QS, you're such an asshole!"




After that post....yea......


Remmington UMC ammo isn't shit....I have used it in all my other firearms without any problems. It's not the top of the line stuff....but it's not Wolf crap either. And if an AR-15 can't shot with the stock mag...then WTF!?! And if an AR15 can't shot with this ammo....then we are shit out of luck when the only ammo is the stuff you pick up off the ground or others.
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