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Posted: 9/2/2004 2:38:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 2:38:57 PM EST by _DR]

I was at a local gun shop today buying my new SA XD9 subcompact (Bachman Gun, Dallas) and while I was waiting on the new counter guy to finish filling out my form4473, I was hobbnobbing with the owner who had some LEO Beta-C mags for $250 on display. When I asked him if he would sell these to the public after 9/14 he said - " I have to wait on the BATF ruling on whether they will be legal for the public to purchase - there will be a ruling on that" I said I was not aware of the need for any ruling but he insisted, so I didn't push it.

He said it will still be illegal for civvies to buy LEO marked stuff before the BATF rules it is OK. They are "restricted", he said, even after the ban goes away.

This is dealer BS, right? I was under the impression this was moot after the sunset. I am I missing something here, or was he just blowing smoke up my ass?
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 2:39:57 PM EST
Ha ha ha thats funny. Bata is selling them to the public without a BATFE ruling, no law to say you can't possess it it ain't illegal.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 2:40:20 PM EST
Yes, your dealer is a moron.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 3:53:24 PM EST
Dealer is a moron and may miss some sales but he's being safe. You really can't blame the guy. I know I wouldn't want to get busted by the BATFE for not waiting a couple extra days...
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:08:37 PM EST
My dealer said the same thing about transferring an LEO lower for me. He's a cool guy, but is just playing it safe. I tried to tell him that the BATFE cannot just decide something is illegal without the support of a written law.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:13:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Yes, your dealer is a moron.



No, not a moron. Justifiably over cautions and maybe ignorant, but not necessarily a moron.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:21:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
I was at a local gun shop today buying my new SA XD9 subcompact (Bachman Gun, Dallas) and while I was waiting on the new counter guy to finish filling out my form4473, I was hobbnobbing with the owner who had some LEO Beta-C mags for $250 on display. When I asked him if he would sell these to the public after 9/14 he said - " I have to wait on the BATF ruling on whether they will be legal for the public to purchase - there will be a ruling on that" I said I was not aware of the need for any ruling but he insisted, so I didn't push it.

He said it will still be illegal for civvies to buy LEO marked stuff before the BATF rules it is OK. They are "restricted", he said, even after the ban goes away.

This is dealer BS, right? I was under the impression this was moot after the sunset. I am I missing something here, or was he just blowing smoke up my ass?




I think it may be Shawn being overly cautious. Being a dealer with such a high volume and small % over his cost that he sells at, the BATF(e), and local law enforcement agencies tend to keep a close eye on him. He's also been a target of the local media for at least a dozen years, I've heard mention that they've already tried to buy LE only mags from the store stating that "since the ban was going to expire in 2 weeks, it's ok to sell to me and I won't tell anyone else."

Also, the guy that owns Big State Dist and does all the local shows is saying a similar thing about needing a ruling. But, he has also said that he will have standard capacity magazines at "competitive" prices when it is legal for him to sell them to civilians.

mm
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:31:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:50:53 PM EST
These dudes are being at little over zealous, but that's okay. They make the big Houston shows all the time and they sell their stuff at Very competative prices. I've bought from them several times.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 5:16:17 PM EST
He's making himself look stupid. Plain and simple. Why can't frightened dealers just admit to wanting a concrete definitive ruling before selling these once restricted items. Letting your customers know the truth behind the rediculous tale should be SOP.

"I'd like to insure these LEO Only marked items are okay for civilian purchase before I go and commit a criminal act. I don't want the BATFE on my bad side!"

Why fabricate some stupid story that only drives customers away? I don't think a common sense approach is insulting. What is insulting is fabricating some horse-shit story which ends up becoming an internet rumor that causes people to wonder what the actual truth is.

HS1
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 5:25:49 PM EST
I am buying some Glock Hi-cap magazines marked LEO after September 13 from mail-order.

HOWEVER, all the local gun stores refuse to sell them. All of them believe that LEO restricted will still apply. They claim that the sunset means nothing until Glock and others make new unmarked magazines.

I have enough AR-15 mags to wait it out but I need some Glock mags ASAP.

Philip
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 5:58:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 6:01:37 PM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By mm38:



I think it may be Shawn being overly cautious. Being a dealer with such a high volume and small % over his cost that he sells at, the BATF(e), and local law enforcement agencies tend to keep a close eye on him. He's also been a target of the local media for at least a dozen years, I've heard mention that they've already tried to buy LE only mags from the store stating that "since the ban was going to expire in 2 weeks, it's ok to sell to me and I won't tell anyone else."

Also, the guy that owns Big State Dist and does all the local shows is saying a similar thing about needing a ruling. But, he has also said that he will have standard capacity magazines at "competitive" prices when it is legal for him to sell them to civilians.

mm



Yeah, that kind of what I figured, that sucks that they are harrassing them like that. Bachman does us a service by keeping their prices low, especially at the gun shows. That's why I drove damn near 35 miles and passed up all the gun shops in Plano, Bachman has the best prices in Dallas on MOST guns (not all). He did say that he had already placed tentative orders for "standard cap" mags from european suppliers for a lot of pistols in the event the ban should expire. He was nice about it, considering the flak they get, I guess I can't blame him.

Good to know it's not law though, thanks for the replys.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:36:31 PM EST
If I listened to my gun dealer, I'd have a S&W Sigma instead of a Glock 17.

Some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard has come from the mouths of gun dealers.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:10:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:12:10 AM EST by philipk]

Originally Posted By _DR:

Good to know it's not law though, thanks for the replys.



That statement is true and for that reason I plan to keep my pre-order for Glock 22 mags. However, I am not sure how I will use them when they are in my possesion.

Some thoughts.

1. LEO restricted mags are illegal today. BATF clearly state that. However, they are not making any statements about the future.

2. After Septemeber 13, there is no law on the Federal level to enforce a ban on LEO restricted mags. (Unless the unthinkable happens next week.)

3. Many local cops are anti-gun and will harrass anyone they find with a LEO restricted mag.

4. If you use your firearm with LEO mags for self defense and go to a criminal or civil trial, how do you explain why you have them? The opposing side expecially in a civil trial will make you look like a LEO wantabee and Rambo.

Philip
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:21:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By philipk:


3. Many local cops are anti-gun and will harrass anyone they find with a LEO restricted mag.

4. If you use your firearm with LEO mags for self defense and go to a criminal or civil trial, how do you explain why you have them? The opposing side expecially in a civil trial will make you look like a LEO wantabee and Rambo.

Philip




Ding - Ding.

We have a winner
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:33:45 AM EST
Some of those who are whining and crying "cowards" about dealers wanting to wait until they have something OFFICIAL from BATF in WRITING before selling "LEO marked" mags and weapons, should consider that people who own multi million dollar businesses and deal with BATF on a regular basis, HAVE multi million dollar businesses and employees and legal fees to consider in their decisions.

Unlike some "Internet Lawyers" sitting behind keyboards, risking nothing, and offering their "legal expertise."

We've waited 10 years for this Ban to expire. No one is going to die of frustration over a few additional days to sort things out OFFICIALLY. (Well, SOME may.)




Lonny
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:41:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:43:34 AM EST by Strudle54]
1st off, this guy is being smart, he has a business to run and a family to support...he makes one mistake he is F*cked!

I personally, will not buy LEO marked anything after the BAN...I just don't trust the Feds - call me a wimp I don't care, I just don't trust 'em! They don't know their ass form a hole in the wall and will/can change their minds at any time...then you are stuck w/ $250 Beta that you can't use....

I just don't trust 'em!

ETA - philipk's, post is right in target!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:46:37 AM EST
IMO, this is jus me now. But I dont intend to own any mags now or in the future that are marked LEO only. Im not a LEO and I can jus see the dilemna in tryin to explain these things. It may be legal in a couple weeks, but why tempt the fate. You will be able to get reg. hi-cap mags for the same price in a couple weeks, no reason to jump the gun and get LEO marked ones jus because. I think the guy is being smart, why risk his ass for a couple hundred bux, not me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:47:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Strudle54:
1st off, this guy is being smart, he has a business to run and a family to support...he makes one mistake he is F*cked!

I personally, will not buy LEO marked anything after the BAN...I just don't trust the Feds - call me a wimp I don't care, I just don't trust 'em! They don't know their ass form a hole in the wall and will/can change their minds at any time...then you are stuck w/ $250 Beta that you can't use....

I just don't trust 'em!

ETA - philipk's, post is right in target!




Then why own any guns ? If the ATF can just make laws up you run the risk of them saying anything you own is illegal. Hope you don't own any tobacco or alcohol either. Where is the ATF ruling that specifically says that a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 lever action is legal .... what can't find it ?? Guess it must be illegal !!!

AGNTSA !!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By Strudle54:
1st off, this guy is being smart, he has a business to run and a family to support...he makes one mistake he is F*cked!

I personally, will not buy LEO marked anything after the BAN...I just don't trust the Feds - call me a wimp I don't care, I just don't trust 'em! They don't know their ass form a hole in the wall and will/can change their minds at any time...then you are stuck w/ $250 Beta that you can't use....

I just don't trust 'em!

ETA - philipk's, post is right in target!




Then why own any guns ? If the ATF can just make laws up you run the risk of them saying anything you own is illegal. Hope you don't own any tobacco or alcohol either. Where is the ATF ruling that specifically says that a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 lever action is legal .... what can't find it ?? Guess it must be illegal !!!



AGNTSA !!!




My point is - when the ban goes away, why buy a LEO marked product if non- LEO marked products are being sold. I see no need to draw any undue attention to my self by owing a LEO marked product...you can bet your ass I am going to buy plenty of "stuff" on the 14th just not LEO marked.

That's all I am saying - If you feel comfortable buying LEO marked prodcuts then by all means go for it, I will pass.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:12:59 AM EST
Grind the fucking words away, if they scare you so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:20:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 4:22:59 AM EST by PeacekeeperRLTW]
Already have my Bushmaster Patrolman M-4 on Layaway pending the Sunset, I paid $919 for the A-3 with removable carry handle.

BTW, it is marked LEO / Military of coarse.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:58:49 PM EST


I personally, will not buy LEO marked anything after the BAN...I just don't trust the Feds - call me a wimp I don't care, I just don't trust 'em! They don't know their ass form a hole in the wall and will/can change their minds at any time...then you are stuck w/ $250 Beta that you can't use....



Well my EOTECH is marked GOVT/Military Only, and I have not had any problems in the years I have owned it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:15:52 PM EST
I bet some guys are scared to buy a Kimber TLE
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:16:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By kc3:
If I listened to my gun dealer, I'd have a S&W Sigma instead of a Glock 17.

Some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard has come from the mouths of gun dealers.



That is a great point...I've run into many dealers that believe what they have in stock at that given time is the best. Then, you go back in a month later, and what they now have is best. If you want BS...go to a gun store. Great place for it...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:42:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By philipk:


3. Many local cops are anti-gun and will harrass anyone they find with a LEO restricted mag.

4. If you use your firearm with LEO mags for self defense and go to a criminal or civil trial, how do you explain why you have them? The opposing side expecially in a civil trial will make you look like a LEO wantabee and Rambo.

Philip




Ding - Ding.

We have a winner





Nope, use a gun in self defence that is just like the one's used by the police is the easeist gun to defend at trial. Much harder to defend a magnum "Dirty Harry",1911's single action "hair triggers", AR's or other nasty black rifles, are more likely to get you in trouble with a dumb jury.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:59:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:45:08 PM EST
I visited a local Dallas dealer today and inquired about standard capacity magazines.(eastside of Dallas...starts with a G)

It seems that someone from an unnamed agency, that visits local dealers on a semi-regular basis, has been telling some of the dealers that they can't sell LE only marked magazines to civilians until the BATF(e) says it's ok in writing. That may be the reason most dealers in the area are saying they have to wait for the ruling.


mm
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:32:50 PM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By philipk:


3. Many local cops are anti-gun and will harrass anyone they find with a LEO restricted mag.

4. If you use your firearm with LEO mags for self defense and go to a criminal or civil trial, how do you explain why you have them? The opposing side expecially in a civil trial will make you look like a LEO wantabee and Rambo.

Philip
END QUOTE

Well as a local cop I have yet to meet an anti gun cop. They may be out there but their a extreemly small minority at best. And if you use a leo mag after the ban it will not make one bit of difference in the trial so long as your attorney is not a moron.
Pat
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:42:12 AM EST
The owner and gunsmiths at my local gunshop, like a lot of others I suspect, are just terribly misinformed and too lazy to look up the correct answers when it comes to AR's. I've gone in several times with questions or requests and have always gotten the same negative responses. For instance, when I wanted the sear block removed from my pre-ban Colt, they said it was illegal to remove it. When I asked them to neuter a pre-ban upper for a buddy's post ban lower, they said it was illegal. They sell AR's, but they don't know anything about them that isn't printed on the box's label. My buddy went in a couple of weeks ago and asked about getting a shotgun transfered from an internet sale. The dealer started whining about how Gunbroker is going to be the end of the local gunshops. My answer would have been, then start being a full service and well informed FFL/dealer. Don't BS your customers and expect them to be grateful. They are going to loose business by not being proactive and knowledgable. They only have themselves to blame for it too.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:46:29 AM EST
Also, Ive seen a letter from the ATF on a post around here that states the "restricted " lowers will be legal to own after the ban. My suggestion would be to write the ATF and get a letter for yourself and keep it with your weapon to get any overzealous officer off your back.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 12:05:40 PM EST
Don't like what they say- don't shop there.

LEO magazines should be available to anyone but yes expect harassment for having them.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:52:15 PM EST
I have consulted with my lawyer concerning sales of LE mags on the 14th.

His reply was "Hold off, untill we get documented clarification from the BATFE as to what constitutes a legal "Feeding device" after the ban sunsets."

That was 3 months ago.

Still no reply from the BATF as to what will be, and what will not be considered legal after the ban expires.

My Lawyer(And good friend) also represents several rather large firearms manufacturers, and a bunch of the larger companys nationwide.

It's not that anyone is a coward.
It's about covering ones butt!!!!!!!!

The BATFE has a history of doing things that are wrong and brutal, and then apologizing later while the dealer is trying like hell to get back the assets that were seized and sold during the appeal.

Have some patience gang!!!

S-28

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:57:48 PM EST
It's pretty sad that we are all waiting for a gov't entity to make a ruling on a subject of legality when there is no law to define that legality. In other words, we are just waiting for them to make something up.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:06:24 PM EST
Sorry folks, but the worries in this thread are the textbook definition of "sheeple".
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:10:18 PM EST
God... some people around here are afraid of their own shadows.

I want you guys to answer a question...assuming that the federal AWB has expired, what federal law would one be violating if they purchased &/or owned a regular capacity magazine, regardless of its date of manufacture or what words are stamped on its side???

Please don't answer with hearsay, rumor, speculation, or made up, unsubstantiated nonsense predicated on a gross misunderstanding of how our legal system works... please cite U.S. Code that indicates, in any manner or form, that buying & possessing a "LEO only" magazine would be a crime.

I will save you some time... Minus the AWB, there is NO LEGAL DEFINITION OF WHAT CONSTUTES A "RESTRICTED FEEDING DEVICE" UNDER FEDERAL LAW!

After the AWB expires, the terms "LEO only" & "restricted feeding device" will lose all their legal weight & meaning. In other words, there will no longer be any such thing as "LEO only" magazines, except in the wet dreams of the gun grabbers.

Why is this so hard for some people to grasp???
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:23:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 8:24:16 PM EST by BigD]
_DR, what dealer was this? I had a dealer say something similar to me. I was asking about LEO marked AR's.

Edit - Nevermind. I read farther.
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