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Posted: 1/5/2006 12:48:26 PM EDT
I'm having difficulty doing good doubletaps. I'm using an M4gery carbine with a Rock River match trigger.

What is your methdology for the doubletap?

I'm open to all suggestions, but of particular interest is your hold.

Do you muscle the rifle with a hard hold, or do you do the "tightly clutching a little bird" method?

Are you tapping off both shots as fast as humanly possible, before the rifle can move too much, or are you tapping once, giving a little time for recoil to pass, and then tapping off again?

Any other secrets?



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:53:22 PM EDT
I'd like to hear some input on this as well. i have difficulty recovering from the initial recoil pulse. Plus I have girly hands so the stock triggers a little stiff
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:56:11 PM EDT
What about just flipping the switch to Auto?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:57:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 12:59:17 PM EDT by 18Bravo]
I don't gorilla grip it. or hold it too lightly. Try changing your shooter's stance, with about 60-70 percent of your weight on the balls of your feet. To me, this is what actually aids in recovery and follow through. Concentrate not on how fast you can squeeze off another round, but rather how quickly you can acquire a second sight picture. Start slowly, and gradually increase your speed. You know the saying: "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."
Remember, number of sight pictures should always be one more than number of shots fired.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:00:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 1:00:52 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By 18Bravo:
I don't gorilla grip it. or hold it too lightly. Try changing your shooter's stance, with about 60-70 percent of your weight on the balls of your feet. To me, this is what actually aids in recovery and follow through. Concentrate not on how fast you can squeeze off another round, but rather how quickly you can acquire a second sight picture. Start slowly, and gradually increase your speed. You know the saying: "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."
Remember, number of sight pictures should always be one more than number of shots fired.



Interesting.

I'll try that, as well as the start slowly and work up thing.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:17:02 PM EDT
If you hold the AR-15/M16/M4 series of rifles properly there's almost no recoil to concern yourself with on a double tap?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:28:19 PM EDT
I fall victim to the "too fast" problem sometimes...


Maybe stating the obvious, but are you using a normal man-sized target at a reasonable distance,
or trying to dbltap a pie plate a 50yds? I mean, maybe that's nothing for some shooters, but I think
people might try too hard to make one hole with two shots versus driving it home into center mass?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:32:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GhostRing:

Maybe stating the obvious, but are you using a normal man-sized target at a reasonable distance,
or trying to dbltap a pie plate a 50yds? I mean, maybe that's nothing for some shooters, but I think
people might try too hard to make one hole with two shots versus driving it home into center mass?



IDPA style target, at 10 - 30 yards, trying to hold the "0 down" 8" CoM ring.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:35:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 1:49:03 PM EDT by mark5pt56]
Unless you are really close, you should do controlled pairs--you have a sight picture each time you pull the trigger. Then you have sight management--how accurate do I need to be?

Then, should you always be doing two shots---??

Oh yeah, a double tap by definition starts with a sight picture, you fire the second as soon as you can pull the trigger again. It relies heavily on having a solid hold, stance.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:42:21 PM EDT
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was taught that two shots each with their own sight picture were a "controlled pair" and that a "double-tap" is two shots based on one sight picture. I echo 18Bravo's advice on shooting stance and add that you should become very familiar with the reset of your trigger, so you reduce the distance that your trigger finger has to travel and you should concentrate on moving your finger forward enough to reset the trigger and then immediately bringing it back to fire the second round.

Double Tap
Press-Press

Controlled Pair
Press-Pause-Press

Failure Drill
Press-Press-Pause-Press (Head)
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:48:14 PM EDT
I think that's what I just said.


sight, slack, squeeze
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:20:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 2:22:01 PM EDT by 18Bravo]
Of course you are not wrong. However, the line delineating a controlled pair and a double tap begins to blur at some point. I know guys who when double tapping seem to think that they're still at a civilian range following the "two second rule."
Even though you (I) may not actually pause between shots, I still maintain a good sight picture all the way throughout the sequence, in case follow on shots, or failure drill, are required. I did not mean to imply that you should take a pause, but with proper stance, as others have mentioned, the sights will stay on target.
A good routine is to practice the controlled pairs, gradually increasing speed until they become double taps. The fundamentals will remain the same. Two kill shots a second apart are ultimately better than two shots nanoseconds apart which miss their mark. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final, or something to that effect...


Originally Posted By supanate7:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was taught that two shots each with their own sight picture were a "controlled pair" and that a "double-tap" is two shots based on one sight picture. I echo 18Bravo's advice on shooting stance and add that you should become very familiar with the reset of your trigger, so you reduce the distance that your trigger finger has to travel and you should concentrate on moving your finger forward enough to reset the trigger and then immediately bringing it back to fire the second round.

Double Tap
Press-Press

Controlled Pair
Press-Pause-Press

Failure Drill
Press-Press-Pause-Press (Head)

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:34:33 PM EDT
Any double tap videos out there??
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:11:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 3:12:01 PM EDT by mark5pt56]
The Miami Vice video from eons ago shows a good dt and a follow up head shot.

You can get away with double taps and hammers at a close range--what gets you in trouble is when the target gets smaller and/or further away. Of course, what helps maintaining accuracy here is a good stance and hold, lock out, etc.

The whole trick is to know what you need to do to hit the target- and quick.
KNow when you can point shoot, double tap, hammer or manage your sights.
There's always the arguement over "what's best" (gee, think this has been in a gun mag) Thing is, there's no one best "method of target engagement.
I'm sure everyone has seen and read them(point shooting vs. sighted shooting)(double tap evaluate and die) etc, etc.

You can make the mistake in reverse, that is, never practicing extreme close quarters shooting-1 yard+, point shooting, etc. there is a time for that, regardles of what you've been told. by whoever.--my opinion
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:39:40 PM EDT
I'm having the same problem with pistols. Sometimes I can put two rounds into the torso of a Q target at 5 yards in under 1/8 of a second, and other times the second round hits the floor.

I usually do very well the first 50-100 rounds, and then I start having recoil anticipation problems after that.

I do not aquire the sights for the second shot at all. I practice "muscle memory" because it is impossible for me to get a second shot off quickly enough if I try to get a sight picture within 1/8 of a second of the first shot.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:24:02 PM EDT
Damn you. lu380!
I just had surgery, and nearly busted my stitches when I read your sig.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:25:51 PM EDT
Dude, If you're getting .125 second splits-you need to go hit the circuit-after you fix that missing thing!
I think alot of people have trouble getting a sight picture with in that time frame

Conditioned response it is
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:31:17 PM EDT
supanate7

and add that you should become very familiar with the reset of your trigger, so you reduce the distance that your trigger finger has to travel and you should concentrate on moving your finger forward enough to reset the trigger and then immediately bringing it back to fire the second round.


That's the trick right their. it' s all about the trigger reset. . Watch guys shoot a rifle, I mean really watch them. Especially the trigger. you will see a good portion who not only let the trigger go all the way forward, but will actually loose contact with the trigger and their trigger finger.... Have the battle in marksmenship and speed is trigger manipulation, and that takes a lot of practice.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:07:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
supanate7

and add that you should become very familiar with the reset of your trigger, so you reduce the distance that your trigger finger has to travel and you should concentrate on moving your finger forward enough to reset the trigger and then immediately bringing it back to fire the second round.


That's the trick right their. it' s all about the trigger reset. . Watch guys shoot a rifle, I mean really watch them. Especially the trigger. you will see a good portion who not only let the trigger go all the way forward, but will actually loose contact with the trigger and their trigger finger.... Have the battle in marksmenship and speed is trigger manipulation, and that takes a lot of practice.



Someone else was telling me its largely trigger control. And having a good trigger, one you don't need both hands to pull.



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:21:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 5:28:13 PM EDT by mark5pt56]
You need two things to hit, sight picture and trigger control. of course, the other fundementals are good too!

When using a double action only or the first shot is double action, pull the trigger "all the way through" don't pause it, cam it, whatever. On single action, reset, TAKE THE SLACK OUT, then squeeze(sight, slack,squeeze)

Whatever you do to "influence" the gun will affect your shot.

Think about a standard transmission car, how you work the clutch, nice and fluid movement, car doesn't pop, jerk about. Be smooth on the trigger and the gun doesn't move, and your shot is good.

Garandman, If you are wanting quick close in shots, either point shooting, double tap or hammer-rely on a solid "natural" stance, firm grip and lock out and spank the trigger like a wild pony!
If you need to make a hard shot, slow down on the trigger, be nice to it and clean up the sight picture.

Speed up when you can, slow down when you have to
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:25:03 PM EDT
Get a good compensator and you'll have no problem...
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Get a good compensator and you'll have no problem...



or some man hands
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:34:33 PM EDT
- get an optical sight that allows for quick follow ups (Aimpoint, Eotech- aome sort of point sight).

- practice

- get an H-buffer- it helps you bring it back down on target quicker (some will say it doesn't, try it and make the decision for yourself)

- start slow and speed up

REMEMBER- its not bench rest shooting, its tactical shooting- just hit the fuck*ng target twice.



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:35:31 PM EDT
- get an optical sight that allows for quick follow ups (Aimpoint, Eotech- aome sort of point sight).

- practice

- get an H-buffer- it helps you bring it back down on target quicker (some will say it doesn't, try it and make the decision for yourself)

- start slow and speed up

REMEMBER- its not bench rest shooting, its tactical shooting- just hit the fuck*ng target twice.



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:38:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 5:38:59 PM EDT by mark5pt56]
I got off track and was concentrating more on a pistol
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:58:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:11:50 PM EDT by DevL]
OK to me a double tap is two rounds with TWO sight pictures. You second round is a flash sight picture. If you do not get a second sight picture you are NOT doing a double tap.

A single sight picture with two trigger pulls is a hammer.

A double tap is a controlled pair. There is nothing controlled about the second shot in a hammer.

This is an area of semantics where people will disagree and the results you are looking for and the terminology you are using get mixed up.

Many people call any two shots a double tap. To me a double tap and hammer are two different things used at two different times.

I have heard some people state a hammer and double tap are the same thing and a controlled pair is the something else.

Some people say there are two types of double taps... controlled pairs and hammers. I call a controlled pair a double tap and a hammer is something else.

To different branches and different militaries cover, concealment, and defilade all have different definitions. I asked several people I have know in several branches what they were taugh as the deffinitions. Brits consider defilade protection from overhead bombardment. Marines call defilade a low obstruction you can shoot over and the trajectory of rounds can hit the enemy but you can not take direct fire, whether or not you have overhead cover, etc.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:29:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
OK to me a double tap is two rounds with TWO sight pictures. You second round is a flash sight picture. If you do not get a second sight picture you are NOT doing a double tap.

A single sight picture with two trigger pulls is a hammer.

A double tap is a controlled pair. There is nothing controlled about the second shot in a hammer.

This is an area of semantics where people will disagree and the results you are looking for and the terminology you are using get mixed up.

Many people call any two shots a double tap. To me a double tap and hammer are two different things used at two different times.

I have heard some people state a hammer and double tap are the same thing and a controlled pair is the something else.

Some people say there are two types of double taps... controlled pairs and hammers. I call a controlled pair a double tap and a hammer is something else.

To different branches and different militaries cover, concealment, and defilade all have different definitions. I asked several people I have know in several branches what they were taugh as the deffinitions. Brits consider defilade protection from overhead bombardment. Marines call defilade a low obstruction you can shoot over and the trajectory of rounds can hit the enemy but you can not take direct fire, whether or not you have overhead cover, etc.



To be honest, I've never even heard of a hammer. If I read you right, we're sort of in agreement on the whole double tap-controlled pair thing. Either way, both rounds are expected to be in the bowling pin, or you're just scaring or pissing the guy off.
As for the gentleman's question about the pistol-my stance does not vary at all between pistol and carbine. Shoulders sqared up on the target, wieght on the balls of the feet, bent forward at the waist, nonfiring foot forward. I realize a lot of guys who can shoot far better than I have their own methods, but this works for me. It allows for a smooth transition if needed; offers a stable platform, not only for recoil management, but also in case some non pork eater decides to try and knock me down; and it presents my body armor fully to the target. It also allows me to advance forward while shooting either weapon with a minimum of extra movement.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:59:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hispeedal2:
- get an optical sight that allows for quick follow ups (Aimpoint, Eotech- aome sort of point sight).



Check. EoTech.




- get an H-buffer- it helps you bring it back down on target quicker (some will say it doesn't, try it and make the decision for yourself)


What's an "h-buffer"?



- start slow and speed up
- practice

REMEMBER- its not bench rest shooting, its tactical shooting- just hit the fuck*ng target twice.




Roger that.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:02:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 18Bravo:
but also in case some non pork eater decides to try and knock me down.....




heh heh

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 1:45:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mark5pt56:
Dude, If you're getting .125 second splits-you need to go hit the circuit-after you fix that missing thing!
I think alot of people have trouble getting a sight picture with in that time frame

Conditioned response it is



The 1/8 second splits are an exaggeration. It's definately less than 1/4 of a second though. I don't own a shot timer, so I don't know for sure.

Keep in mind that I practice double taps at only 5 yds on a Q target.

Like I said before, I do not acquire a sight picture for the second shot. My goal is not to be accurate, but to get two shots anywhere in the torso area as fast as possible. I'm actually starting to squeeze the trigger before the pistol has returned from recoil.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:04:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

What's an "h-buffer"?




A heavy carbine buffer - usually marked with an "H".

You know, that thing in the stock that the bolt carrier pushes back against the spring.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:12:14 PM EDT
H-buffer or 9mm buffer would probably be very beneficial.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:16:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bsbg:

Originally Posted By garandman:

What's an "h-buffer"?




A heavy carbine buffer - usually marked with an "H".

You know, that thing in the stock that the bolt carrier pushes back against the spring.



Its just a heavier weight buffer??

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:48:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:


Its just a heavier weight buffer??




Yep.

The theory goes it may lessen the recoil by requiring more energy to cycle it. Or else it's just more mass hitting your shoulder...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:45:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 18Bravo:
Originally Posted By DevL:
To be honest, I've never even heard of a hammer. If I read you right, we're sort of in agreement on the whole double tap-controlled pair thing. Either way, both rounds are expected to be in the bowling pin, or you're just scaring or pissing the guy off.
As for the gentleman's question about the pistol-my stance does not vary at all between pistol and carbine. Shoulders sqared up on the target, wieght on the balls of the feet, bent forward at the waist, nonfiring foot forward. I realize a lot of guys who can shoot far better than I have their own methods, but this works for me. It allows for a smooth transition if needed; offers a stable platform, not only for recoil management, but also in case some non pork eater decides to try and knock me down; and it presents my body armor fully to the target. It also allows me to advance forward while shooting either weapon with a minimum of extra movement.



Excellent advice in any event. One thing that I have expected and not seen is that at reasonably close range the sights should be a verification of stance. That is your stance should have you on target, the sights verify, and you engage. If your stance is good, then your sights will always be where you are looking. This is not an excuse to rely on stance only, and not use sights, but that is another argument.

pat
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:33:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By GhostRing:

Maybe stating the obvious, but are you using a normal man-sized target at a reasonable distance,
or trying to dbltap a pie plate a 50yds? I mean, maybe that's nothing for some shooters, but I think
people might try too hard to make one hole with two shots versus driving it home into center mass?



IDPA style target, at 10 - 30 yards, trying to hold the "0 down" 8" CoM ring.



Now why would you be worried about something like that?

Just grip it and rip it.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:51:27 AM EDT
Seriously though, speed shooting is a condition of distance to target.

Controlled Pair - Two shots fired in rapid succession, aquiring a complete sight picture for each round fired.

Double Tap - Two shots fired in rapid succession, acquiring a complete sight picture for the first round and a flash sight picture for the second round fired.

Hammer - Two shots fired in rapid succession utilizing only one sight picture, with the second round being fired during the recoil cycle of the first round.

Practically speaking speed is relative to diminshing levels of accuracy. So if the target is close, you can hit the happy switch and still make your hits; as distance increases, you have to slow down, or sacrifice accuracy.

Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:01:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 5:02:33 AM EDT by eye_spy]
COMPENSATOR + GOOD TRIGGER or trigger job .... will help A LOT!


Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:07:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
Now why would you be worried about something like that?

Just grip it and rip it.



Did you see my scores at the last match? 10 0r 11 outta 15 ain't acceptable.

I NEED to be worried about it.

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