Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 7/21/2013 8:19:56 AM EST
I'm talking 601s, 602s, 603s, etc. - M16s with A1 uppers, triangle handguards, basically the same configuration since the Vietnam War.
Are there any US military units, including the National Guard, that still use these old gals?
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 8:35:37 AM EST
There are a lot of military guys here who have posted pics of some
Still in the inventories. It seems from those pics the military has a lot of mixed
Matched rifles, 601 lower with a A2 upper for example.
Somebody will come along and post some pics
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 8:45:38 AM EST
I've seen some pics of some AF guys with M16s, but I think the pics were several years old. I was wondering if there are any still in current inventory.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 8:48:35 AM EST
I have no military experience, but from the pics that get posted
They are still being used, maybe not so much tge triangle upper.
But a lot of old lowers
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:13:26 AM EST
Somewhere there are still some of everything the question is where and the answer is that if you had a need to know then you would already know.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:15:28 AM EST
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:24:56 AM EST
M16A1 lowers are used all the time for "Crane" built M4's, Mk18's and other configurations of the M16 series. Other than the lowers I have not seen any other old components used in recent memory.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:29:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>
View Quote


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:30:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2013 9:30:45 AM EST by gordog]
My weapon for OIFIII was a Colt AR15e1 lower with A1 upper. Full auto for us Seabees, not 3rd burst. Some day when I,m going through my pics and find it, I,ll post
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:37:35 AM EST
The rifle I had in Afghanistan in '08-'09 was a GM lower and M4 upper.
Thing ran like a top and never gave me a single problem!
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:00:53 AM EST
I've heard Ft. Sill is using M16A2s with the A1 lowers electropenned into A2 for BCT. That came from a friend that went through BCT there recently. My unit has one (guard). I've also seen an FN A4 with a dimpled take down pin. That was fucking strange, wish I could've gotten a pic.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:03:39 AM EST
When I was in the AF Reserve (1995-2004), our squadron had a big mix. We had some 602s, 603s, M16A1s, and M16A2s. I had a deployment to Westover AB, MA where I swapped my M16A1 with an officer who had a CAR 15 (model 723). It was nice to have maneuvering through the dense brush.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:04:15 AM EST
They're in use somewhere.

Someone I know is a guard on federal property and has a Colt M16A1 lower with a serial number that would put it at 1970, and a "C" marked barrel that would have been from a couple years before.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:10:48 AM EST
I know of exactly one all original M16 still in the service, it's not in use though. Has green furniture, Edgewood buffer, triangle charging handle, etc. Serial # is pretty low as well. It's marked with both Armalite and Colt. The NCOIC of CATM at Eielson had to submit waivers to prevent it from being turned in for destruction.

There are still numerous old parts still in use, but the rifles themselves have almost all been upgraded over the years.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:17:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Axel2485:


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Axel2485:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.


This.

Body armor dates it to prior to 2008 as well, though the uniform probably dates it to prior to 2006, really.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:42:20 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gordog:
My weapon for OIFIII was a Colt AR15e1 lower with A1 upper. Full auto for us Seabees, not 3rd burst. Some day when I,m going through my pics and find it, I,ll post
View Quote


I bet you guys where using the 62gr green tip rounds m855, which would have been about worthless out of that 1-12 rifling. I have never seen 55gr m193 issued but i hope you guys got the right stuff,
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 10:47:05 AM EST
Hey CaseYellow, I should have specified,,,, Our A1 uppers were rebarreled, so we weren't shooting 1/12 twist.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 1:31:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Axel2485:


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Axel2485:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.


When some of you kids get a couple more decades on you, you'll realize that 5 years is "recent"!
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 1:33:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:


When some of you kids get a couple more decades on you, you'll realize that 5 years is "recent"!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Originally Posted By Axel2485:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.


When some of you kids get a couple more decades on you, you'll realize that 5 years is "recent"!


When talking about military equipment during time of war, 5 years is never "recent."
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 3:37:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


When talking about military equipment during time of war, 5 years is never "recent."
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Originally Posted By Axel2485:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.


When some of you kids get a couple more decades on you, you'll realize that 5 years is "recent"!


When talking about military equipment during time of war, 5 years is never "recent."


Tell that to folks in the Air Force flying and maintaining aircraft that are over 50 year old. Why wouldn't the AF have rifles that are that old as well? Probably still lower numbers of rounds through the guns than any other service, save for brand new guns in USMC or Army inventory.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 3:47:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2013 3:57:27 PM EST by Bohr_Adam]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FlyingGorilla:


Tell that to folks in the Air Force flying and maintaining aircraft that are over 50 year old. Why wouldn't the AF have rifles that are that old as well? Probably still lower numbers of rounds through the guns than any other service, save for brand new guns in USMC or Army inventory.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FlyingGorilla:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Originally Posted By Axel2485:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

<a href="http://s756.photobucket.com/user/vanvideo/media/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg</a>


Can't be too recent. Air Force hasn't used that uniform for at least 5 years.


When some of you kids get a couple more decades on you, you'll realize that 5 years is "recent"!


When talking about military equipment during time of war, 5 years is never "recent."


Tell that to folks in the Air Force flying and maintaining aircraft that are over 50 year old. Why wouldn't the AF have rifles that are that old as well? Probably still lower numbers of rounds through the guns than any other service, save for brand new guns in USMC or Army inventory.


Well, that was the question, wasn't it?

But how could a picture that old answer that question?

That would be akin to asking if any Army units still used the M1903 in 1945, and suggesting a picture from 1940 might possibly shed light on the question. 5 years in wartime can be a lifetime when it comes to small arms changes. A picture that old simply does not provide enough information to suggest those old rifles, while common in 2003, have stayed in the inventory.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 3:51:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FlyingGorilla:
Tell that to folks in the Air Force flying and maintaining aircraft that are over 50 year old.
View Quote


How many of those aircraft haven't been upgraded in the past 50 years?
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 4:42:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I'm talking 601s, 602s, 603s, etc. - M16s with A1 uppers, triangle handguards, basically the same configuration since the Vietnam War.
Are there any US military units, including the National Guard, that still use these old gals?
View Quote



Front line units certainly don't use them, but plenty are still in NG inventories and armories.

As far as I know they still use them in the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign armory. They certainly were using a dozen of them 15 years ago and had no reason to upgrade, as they mostly were used for Small Arms Marksmanship for the ROTC kids (and any civvies like me who signed up for it!) and learning how to field strip them.

Link Posted: 7/22/2013 5:41:48 AM EST
There are plenty of A1 lowers out there that were converted to A2 by changing the firing group and using an A2 upper and furniture. We still have dozens in our armory although we have been informed that we finally have M4's headed our way. Here is one I photographed in June. We are range qualifying in September, I hope to fire one of the old A1 rebuilds one last time. These rifles have not been down range since around 2004. After that, the unit received M4's for deployments.

Link Posted: 7/22/2013 4:50:06 PM EST
We have a handful of A1 converted to A2 rifles in our armory as well, all done by ANAD in the mid 90's. The burst is stamped over the old auto, the A1 has been changed to an A2 on the model and they still have some of the old lower parts in them. They are a strange combination indeed!
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 4:56:42 PM EST
I can tell you about 3 years ago the Air Force was still using 601 and 602 lowers. All had been "updated" with A2 barrels and A2 furniture. They all still had the original bolt catch,mag buttons, and trigger guards. Oh and dimpled pivot pins too. Some still had buffer ext with the hole in it.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 5:56:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rbhoover:
We have a handful of A1 converted to A2 rifles in our armory as well, all done by ANAD in the mid 90's. The burst is stamped over the old auto, the A1 has been changed to an A2 on the model and they still have some of the old lower parts in them. They are a strange combination indeed!
View Quote


Any worse than the Air Force converting their GAU-5As (XM-177s) into GUU-5Ps, making them plain carbines? That is sacrilege!!!
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:07:07 PM EST
Crappy pic taken in early 2010 at the last qualification range I fired before I retired from the Guard. It had already gone through at least one deployment to Iraq. I wish I'd had my Nikon, but all I had was a beat up Blackberry.

Colt AR-15
XM16A2

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 6:13:36 AM EST
I have been in Afghanistan the last 9 months. I saw all the REMFs carrying A2s with mixed lowers, no A1 uppers. Funny the Afghan forces are carrying A2s also.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:14:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 9:14:34 AM EST by GI-45]
From the "Real Deal" thread:

Originally Posted By AMMOTECH:
How about a few that are still in use....Air Force style.

These pics are current as of 13 May 09.

sorry for the big pics.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:16:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I found this pic in the NEW real deal pic thread, but there's no date or info. It looks very recent, though.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/vanvideo/arfcom%20stuff/m16_zps98b6d567.jpg
View Quote

I'm pretty sure that was taken in 2003...
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:04:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By polecat30:
I've heard Ft. Sill is using M16A2s with the A1 lowers electropenned into A2 for BCT. That came from a friend that went through BCT there recently. My unit has one (guard). I've also seen an FN A4 with a dimpled take down pin. That was fucking strange, wish I could've gotten a pic.
View Quote


We had A1 rifles that were converted to A2 in basic training at Fort Lenard Wood in 1997. I remember the A1 appeared to be filled in and then A2 was stamped over with a different font. The Auto marking was also filled and stamped burst.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:31:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2013 2:12:09 AM EST by sandsock]
The Air Force did a program to locally retrofit 604s ran by the Item Manager at Warner-Robbins Air Logistics Center GA. Kits were procured en masse from a company named Capco (we called them Crapco because of inadequate head spacing (too much chrome in the chamber) criminally thin anodizing and (some of us theorized) many small parts came from OS (Korea and the PI) as the finish was inferior to the original Colt parts or even those in our new FN-made A2s.

Local CATM units received these kits with the Tech Order supplement to install and originally slick side BCs were to be replaced but once W-R figured out how many they were dealing with they said just to keep the originals. A later supplement stated non-FA retrofitted guns weren't deployable, which is laughable since most AF have no idea what FA is for and I personally have found it of little use other than make a bad situation worse (main utility seems to be a silent load).

BL is there undoubtedly are some undesecrated 604s still in long term storage at non-depot location (AF bases) because of the flawed execution of the program. The AF uses ANAD for depot maintenance and I saw almost all 601s magwell stamped by ANAD in the early 70s with C MP C barrels. Reason I say this is when they ran out of kits, they were out of kits (and guns aren't as important as airplanes). Any unmodified guns that go to ANAD are undoubtedly A2'd.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 2:49:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CaseYellow1940:


I bet you guys where using the 62gr green tip rounds m855, which would have been about worthless out of that 1-12 rifling. I have never seen 55gr m193 issued but i hope you guys got the right stuff,
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CaseYellow1940:
Originally Posted By gordog:
My weapon for OIFIII was a Colt AR15e1 lower with A1 upper. Full auto for us Seabees, not 3rd burst. Some day when I,m going through my pics and find it, I,ll post


I bet you guys where using the 62gr green tip rounds m855, which would have been about worthless out of that 1-12 rifling. I have never seen 55gr m193 issued but i hope you guys got the right stuff,



I did see some once. I was in the 3/505 PIR, 82nd Airborne from 2002-2004. Right before we went to Afghanistan in 2002, we did zero/qualification with our issued weapons(mine was an M4). But what was interesting was that the ammo we were issued for this was M193 ball, not the usual M855 green tip. We all thought that this was going to be "the deployment ammo", but when we got in country all we got was M855. The weird thing about this was that we had NO older weapons at all. All of the non-belt feds were M4 carbines(of course a chunk of these had M203s, as per TO&E), no M16s at all. The M14s hadn't even been re-issued to any big army units at that time yet either. Hell, we didn't even have any M60s left, we just had M240Bs and M249s. So I'm not sure why they issued it to us that one time, but they definitely did.

Now from what I recall, some of the Air National Guard units were still using straight up A1s right up into the early years of the ongoing conflicts. I don't remember seeing any Navy people, but I am not overly surprised that some would still have A1s.

But at least as of 2002, the M193 was still available at some level.
Top Top