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Posted: 6/8/2006 3:11:28 AM EDT
Are Les Baer and Wilson worth the extra bucks (compared to Rock River, etc)?  
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 3:26:33 AM EDT
[#1]
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 3:31:59 AM EDT
[#2]
Depends.
Some will say they can do as well or better on their own,building up all the parts and piecies and tuneing the whole package.
Others want to smack down the big bucks and get a proven package from day one.
Pretty much everyone agrees they are costly but very good.
Like many other gun choices it comes down to haveing a good long talk with yourself and trying to identify exactly what gun you need and want and to what purpose you intend it for.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 4:02:51 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.

Link Posted: 6/8/2006 4:19:47 AM EDT
[#4]
I ordered les's IPSC should be here in july I'll let you know. For me it's worth it no fooling around with some guy building it wonder if he did all the thing your paying for. Baer is really a custom gun no question.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 6:01:48 AM EDT
[#5]
There are some industry guys on here who could be you one that would do the same thing for a significant savings.
But if you like Baer, get one.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 7:44:12 AM EDT
[#6]
CMMG, Denny's, ADCO, and others can build better rifles for less.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 7:53:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 8:00:27 AM EDT
[#8]
I recently went through this with 1911's. At the end of the day, it was about features for me.
If a S&W has everything I want and more, how is a Wilson Combat or Les Baer better? If I want a "custom" or "hand built" gun, I will build it my self. AR's are fairly simplistic to build for anyone who is competant with hand tools and semi skilled/familiar with AR's. I just don't see what they offer over similiary equipped rifles which cost much less. Wilson Combat and Les Baer guns are status symbols. People who really use a rifle, don't typically use one of thiers....
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 8:01:58 AM EDT
[#9]

They are not worth the price IMO, FWIW. I'll take a Colt AR or a Kimber 1911 over those any day.

That said, I have never heard anything negative about them.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 8:05:06 AM EDT
[#10]
I was looking at a Les Baer a few weeks ago at a gun shop. It's probably one of the nicest
finishes I have ever seen on a AR , but function wise you can have the same for less money.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 8:45:59 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.




yup.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 9:41:53 AM EDT
[#12]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree totally with the above quote. Very very few people can build a 1911 themselves like thoses guys can, that said, the AR may not be a peice of cake, but when someone like me can build an AR15, then maybe it's a peice of pie.

Bill
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 9:49:37 AM EDT
[#13]
Wilson Combat makes a very nice M16...
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 9:50:37 AM EDT
[#14]


My father has a Wilson, and used to work for them, and I own a Stag. Dad hates the fact that a weapon that costs 3 times less does exactly the same thing, has the same accuracy, and has the same dependabilty (at least so far). After handling it, and comparing it to every AR and M16 I have fired, I wouldn't bother, but thats just my oppinion.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 9:52:33 AM EDT
[#15]
I don't know much, but I do know that RRA's 1911's are also extremely nice top shelf custom guns.  Wilson's reputation for being an asshole (I've never met the man, but have heard ill from several folks who have) would keep me from drooling over his stuff.  There's no way in hell a Wilson CQB is twice as good as a SW1911 or Sig GSR, yet they cost twice as much.  

As far as AR's are concerned, most people on this board can build as nice a gun as a wilson or a baer for half the money.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 10:18:04 AM EDT
[#16]
When I was new to the sport, it was nice being able to drive down to the gun shop and walk away with an AR that was fitted with a custom barrel.  My average group size immediately shrank by one half.  Today, due to the knowledge gleaned from ARFCOM, I would purchase a custom barrel and build.


Link Posted: 6/8/2006 10:50:35 AM EDT
[#17]
No.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 11:38:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Does anyone know if Les Baer uppers are M4 ramped or regular? Les Baer customer service told me both a non M4 barrel and an M4 barrel would work.

Reason I'm asking is I have an extra M4 barrel and I found a good deal on a matched upper/lower set.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 12:12:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Put simply, No.

If you really want to spend some money on an AR, go with an upper from MSTN.  Match it up with a quality lower of your choice.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 12:35:02 PM EDT
[#20]
What's better, Wilson or Rock River. That's a really tough question.

Where does Wilson get their parts? (Hint: What name is on the collapsible stock?)

BTW, I'd pick up one of their 1911's, but I'd never consider either of their AR15's.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 12:41:08 PM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
Are Les Baer and Wilson worth the extra bucks (compared to Rock River, etc)?  



Premium quality for a premium price.  ARFCOMers would never be OK with the later portion of that statement.  Not to even mention the lack of "bling" accessories.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 12:46:39 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are Les Baer and Wilson worth the extra bucks (compared to Rock River, etc)?  



Premium quality for a premium price.  ARFCOMers would never be OK with the later portion of that statement.  Not to even mention the lack of "bling" accessories.


The only thing more quality about a Wilson or Baer is the engraving on the receiver. Both companies don't make a thing for their rifles.

It's rumored that Wilson outright buys Rock River uppers and lower parts to slap to their lowers. I'm not sure how true this is, but even on the front page of their catalog you can see that their six position stock is clearly marked "Rock River Arms". It seems the only thing you wouldn't be getting from Rock River is the better accuracy guarantees.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 1:04:35 PM EDT
[#23]
I would not buy a complete rifle from either of them but I do have my eye on one of Les's NM Bolt Carriers.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 1:12:03 PM EDT
[#24]
I put my rifle togather from the EE here, I have $560.00 in the rifle, add $165.00 for the Chip McCormic trigger module that made a huge difference in the groups. Except for the flyers it shoots pretty well. I am responsible for the flyers, 50 year old eyes.
Five shots 110 yrds.

Ten shots 110yrds

DPMS upper, Dalphon marked (Mega Machine) lower

I know, I know, I missed the dime both times.
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 1:27:27 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.




yup.



+2
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 1:42:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Easy answer... If I thought either one were worth it... I would own one..... I don't.....
Link Posted: 6/8/2006 6:47:04 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are Les Baer and Wilson worth the extra bucks (compared to Rock River, etc)?  



Premium quality for a premium price.  ARFCOMers would never be OK with the later portion of that statement.  Not to even mention the lack of "bling" accessories.


The only thing more quality about a Wilson or Baer is the engraving on the receiver. Both companies don't make a thing for their rifles.

It's rumored that Wilson outright buys Rock River uppers and lower parts to slap to their lowers. I'm not sure how true this is, but even on the front page of their catalog you can see that their six position stock is clearly marked "Rock River Arms". It seems the only thing you wouldn't be getting from Rock River is the better accuracy guarantees.



I especially enjoyed the comment regarding the quality of Baer.  I also enjoy hearing the excuses given by the benchrest shooters at the range of why their rigs are not making as small of groups as my LBC rifle.
Link Posted: 6/9/2006 2:08:23 AM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
Easy answer... If I thought either one were worth it... I would own one..... I don't.....



Ditto.

For what Les Baer/Wilson charge you're not getting anywhere close to the appropriate quality.  Case in point, Baer's IPSC Rifle.  Costs = $ 2,310.  Okay...a great judge of what equipment works best in a competative environment is to look at what the top shooters are using.  Without even looking at a list, I can say that there are no Les Baer's winning (and safely no top shooter is using them).  The two most common rifles you will find winning IPSC/IMGA 3-Gun competition is JP Rifles and Triangle Shooting Sports.  After that, MSTN, DPMS, CMMG and Cavalry Arms are in there.

JP's CTR-02 rifle which will by far blow away anything from Baer or Wilson, is $ 2,395.  Is it worth it?  Absolutely.  Every piece and part on that rifle has been designed, re-designed and re-designed again for the optimum in performance, speed, reliability and accuracy.  Test groups well under 1/4 MOA are possible and sub-1/2 MOA is the norm.

Triangle Shooting Sports is in the same category, but at about 1/2-2/3 the price of both Baer and JP.  Benny Hill is a Grandmaster shooter and even better gunsmith.  He knows what works because he's a shooter and listens to shooters.  His record and the record of those who run his rifles, shotguns and pistols speak for themselves.

Now, does this apply to only competition rifles?  Not really.  You can be the judge.  I'm not the most AR saavy person, but every Baer/Wilson rifle I've seen, is just a collection of basic, off the shelf parts.  There's no special fitting, work, etc., for increased reliability or accuracy (although I will be testing the Baer Slabside carriers...that are made by an outside shop).  

I always say this about both 1911's and AR's.  Ask yourself why something so simple (1911's and AR's) have to cost so much to build.  If it's the parts and/or the work put into it, then so be it, but let me see it.  Baer and Wilson don't do this.

Rich
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:10:44 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
<center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Quoted:
<center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Quoted:
Are Les Baer and Wilson worth the extra bucks (compared to Rock River, etc)?  
<hr height=1px color=black noshade>

Premium quality for a premium price.  ARFCOMers would never be OK with the later portion of that statement.  Not to even mention the lack of "bling" accessories.
<hr height=1px color=black noshade>
The only thing more quality about a Wilson or Baer is the engraving on the receiver. Both companies don't make a thing for their rifles.

It's rumored that Wilson outright buys Rock River uppers and lower parts to slap to their lowers. I'm not sure how true this is, but even on the front page of their catalog you can see that their six position stock is clearly marked "Rock River Arms". It seems the only thing you wouldn't be getting from Rock River is the better accuracy guarantees.


I was just wondering... So I checked les baer's site and it says they make there uppers and lowers in house.... Are you saying this is not true??

I am thinking of a matched set (upper and lower) from them for one of my builts...

mike
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 9:28:37 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
<center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.
<hr height=1px color=black noshade>


yup.

Agreed.

I own a TRS (1911) and think it was worth every penny. If I buy another 1911 it will be a Les Baer. That said, I wouldn't buy an AR from them. I just don't see any advantage.



Welcome to the board!

Flushdraw
Link Posted: 8/20/2006 10:16:18 PM EDT
[#31]
NO.
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 12:27:49 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:
<center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Quoted:
<center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Quoted:
For 1911's I'd say yes, for AR-15's I'd say no.
<hr height=1px color=black noshade>


yup.
<hr height=1px color=black noshade>

+2


+3. I wouldn't consider buying an AR at the prices charged by Les Baer and Wilson. I'm sure their rifles are nice, but nothing can justify the pricetags.

Go to CMMG and get a rifle that is just as good, for far less money. They will build it just as you want it Check out Denny's Guns, too.
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:13:34 AM EDT
[#33]
I have one and it totally blows away all the rest, it works for me.... for me it's worth it Now I'm looking @ there Thunder Ranch and matching 1911,,,I have friends with SPR and the les baer hangs right with them...
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 4:48:41 PM EDT
[#34]
I have a Wilson UT-15 bought after I had accumulated several other AR's over the years, because I just loved the look of it and the slick JP trigger.

It is an outstanding rifle in terms of accuracy and reliability (although would not be in bad conditions due to lack of chrome lined barrel) for the range.  It is the first rifle I would grab for home defense because it is the only AR I have ever owned that never, ever failed to go bang when I pull the trigger with all types of ammo and any mag I can stuff in the receiver right out of the box (I had a couple BM's jam, but weren't broken in yet either).

HOWEVER, I will not buy another one and subsequent rifles have been Bushmaster and Stag.  Why?  Because I can get 99% of the Wilson's attributes plus a better barrel from a durability standpoint for half the cost.  I won't part with my Wilson either though.

The Wilson has been a great rifle, and the OD armor tuff finish is killer looking and tough as well, and the JP trigger is nice too (for damn sure), but not worth the extra price unless you have extra money laying around (at the time, we were DINK).

You'll always hear an abrupt NO from everyone about Baers and Wilsons, but most of them have never owned one either.  You have to decide if you want and can afford one or not, just make sure it is not the only AR you get.  If that's the case I'd much rather have two Bushmasters, IMO.
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:01:08 PM EDT
[#35]
I have a Wilson UT-15 bought with an leo discount of about 20% IIRC.  I love the thing and, well frankly so does everyone that shoots it.  It is accurate and goes bang every time the fit & finish are tops and with all due respect to the guys on this board I do not have the time or, well, the ability, to put one together on my own.

I recently asked a friend b/f I went into surgery (half jokingly) whicxh one of my rifles he would like if I didn't make it (the selection included truly mint HK93 - with the paper sticker saying made in West Germany still affixed and a never fired pre-ban legal bushy NIB with all evil features (I live in a communist state).  He immediately said the wilson "post ban" UT he's shot at the range.  Mybe its the label but it is my honey.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.  
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:16:44 PM EDT
[#36]
"yes for the 1911's no for the ar's"

+1



Quoted:
I don't know much, but I do know that RRA's 1911's are also extremely nice top shelf custom guns.  Wilson's reputation for being an asshole (I've never met the man, but have heard ill from several folks who have) would keep me from drooling over his stuff.  There's no way in hell a Wilson CQB is twice as good as a SW1911 or Sig GSR, yet they cost twice as much.  

As far as AR's are concerned, most people on this board can build as nice a gun as a wilson or a baer for half the money.


A Wilson CQB is easily twice as good as a SW1911 or Sig GSR.  Those two are fine for range guns but not reliable enough for serious use.  For a serious 1911 you have to spend the money for one that is properly fitted/tuned.
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:29:09 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
CMMG, Denny's, ADCO, and others can build better rifles for less.


+1
Link Posted: 8/21/2006 5:30:08 PM EDT
[#38]
It's all about what you want your rifle for. The military requirement for a battle rifle is 4moa that being said any ar will do better than that with a good shooter behind it. You can give a LB or Wilson to someone who doesn't have good technique and he won't shoot it as good as the guy with the $700.00 ar who does. If your rifle is for self protection in the heat of battle you will not have the time to drop down on the bench, acquire perfect sight picture, breath, exhale, hold, and fire. If you try to do this you'll end up with a bunch of poorly grouped holes in you from the other guyu, who just won? It is going to be more of a snap shot like the ones you get trained for at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch center mass type stuff. So is that LB or Wilson  really going to shine that far above the rest in that situation to justify the cost, I've owned a Les by the way. Yes the are the cream of the crop for sure, and they give you bragging rights at the range. But the next time you see one of these fine rifles at the range grab someones cheapy or your own and challenge the guy with the LB or Wilson to a timed rapid fire drill from say 50-75 yards then see if he'll switch off with you. If you see a huge differance ($1400.00) worth go get one they are the s#$t, if not go buy ammo and get yourself to Gunsite or TR for some good training.
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