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Posted: 7/24/2006 7:07:37 PM EDT
Hello all,
I was just wondering what your take is on the future of the BLACK RIFLE. Is the gas piston upper a step toward improving the platform? So what are your thoughts?  

Thanks in Advance.
Bruce_Wayne
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 7:08:07 PM EDT
[#1]
no

the AR system is what makes it an AR...
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 7:10:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Are they more accurate? Some will say yes, some will say no.  Are they worth the cash? Some will say yes, some will say no.  Are they more reliable?  Some will say yes, some will say no.  Is DI plenty reliable enough already?  Some will say yes, some will say no.

Some like um, some don't.  Ok I'm done.
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 7:28:18 PM EDT
[#3]
I look at it this way..the future of the AR/M16 system will be what the Army and Marines choose...if they go to a piston system then Ill go too and with what ever system they choose unless they pick an entirely new weapon eventualy and we cant get a semi-auto only version then in that case Ill still stick with direct gas.hing
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 7:59:57 PM EDT
[#4]
no
yes there are advantages but they are not significant enough to warrant widespread change

Hmm Im betting the gas piston uppers threads will be a little quieter now huh?
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 8:03:05 PM EDT
[#5]
I bought a POF , just waiting for it to come in.
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 8:21:11 PM EDT
[#6]
They are at least a part of the AR's future.  POF, L-W, Colt, HK, Ares(?) and others are making them, preparing to make them, or expanding infrastructure to be able to make more.

TS
Link Posted: 7/24/2006 10:54:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Yes, gas piston looks like the last recognizable update to the platform.  

Besides a bunch of companies need new ways to sell you more products.  Create something different, create a whole new market of people to sell to...

I think Bill Gates and MS Windows has pretty much dominated the "upgrade because we want you to, because it's better for you" mentality.  In some ways it's quite unnecessary, but in a few, it's justified.

I'm a LAZY CAKE EATING CIVILIAN now.  I look forward to getting a few GP ARs.  :)

Link Posted: 7/25/2006 12:28:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Future of AR15? No.

New rifle and carbine weapon systems will be the future.

Without a piston standard, I dont expect any of these piston systems to ever be as popular as direct gas AR15's
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 5:18:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Increased number of parts? Yes.

Increased weight? Yes.

Increased cost? Yes.

Proprietary parts from multiple manufacturers? Yes.

Easier to clean? Yes.

Manufacturers trying to move product in a slow industry? Yes.

Less accurate? Perhaps.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 5:26:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 5:33:26 AM EDT
[#11]
Im not going to buy any soon!

I might think about it in the next 5 years
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 5:49:06 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
no

the AR system is what makes it an AR...


+1!!!

But according to a nameless (and SHAMELESS) peddler of said gimmick on this site,  the Direct gas system is a thing of the past!
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 6:04:01 AM EDT
[#13]
There will also be advances in coatings,materials (plastics & metals),and propellents...that may also
effect form....
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 6:13:00 AM EDT
[#14]
I have and always will maintain that the M16/AR15 platform if in the hands of a trained rifleman, is a fine weapon which can not be improved upon in all but the most extreme situations.  The AR15 as it is is not for the novice.  With proper training and proper maintenance, the AR15 can run with any weapons platform in the world and in most cases out-perform its competition.

If I had to arm a brigade size of rednech hillbillies in the middle of Kentucky, I'd air drop crates full of AK variants.  If I had the same situation in the middle of TX, MT, IA, UT, SD, etc, and the folks there were members of a rifle club, NRA club, etc, and I knew they had some ex-military, ex-LEO, or likewise leadership available to add to their current knowledge of firearms (the AR15 platform in particular), I'd drop crates full of AR15 rifles.

My opinions, of course.  
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 6:16:25 AM EDT
[#15]
The POF works great and is just has accurate as any other AR system...Also way less cleaning. I don't have a POF yet my friend does, but I have some SL8's and they work great.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:29:59 AM EDT
[#16]
I like my AR's just the way they are, and wouldn't buy any upgrades for them. . .
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 8:20:09 AM EDT
[#17]
I believe it is the wave of the future, provided the military financially backs a piston design fully.

It just so happens that they ARE looking into them seriously. We have plenty of choices to choose from as civilians ( POF, LW, Bushmaster now, and one other mfg that escapes my mind ), but until the military gets behind it, they will simply be another path an AR owner can take if s/he chooses.

The number one step for MFGs is to get the price down as much as possible. Then land a big military contract. Easier said than done, but if it happens, the AR will be with us for many years to come in a piston form.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 8:42:01 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
There will also be advances in coatings,materials (plastics & metals),and propellents...that may also
effect form....


Thats the best answer.  New technologies will yield new parts.  With specific regard to your question though, yes, I (personal opinion) think future AR weapons would benefit from piston operation.  However, lets not kid ourselves, unless a major US military entity adopts a gas piston system, they will probably not be acknowledged as a big upgrade and never be acknowledged as a necessary one.  And further more, who ever gets their gas piston system adopted is going to make tons and the rest of us are going to fade somewhat or all together.  I think the m16 is close to reaching optimization.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 9:00:20 AM EDT
[#19]
It is the future for MY upper. Along with a click adjustable gas regulator. With a free floating barrel. I am also getting rid of that silly recoil sprONG and replacing it with an FNFAL recoil spring. ( Yes I can too)
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 9:41:11 AM EDT
[#20]
.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 10:34:37 AM EDT
[#21]
The gas piston upper is something which I have no desire to own, let alone have any need for. Of course that's just me. If they become the wave of the future that's fine, but for me my ARs work fine the way they were intended.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 10:50:04 AM EDT
[#22]
I think efforts would be better spent retrofitting AKs with DIRECT GAS!

So put that in your KalishniCrackPipe and smoke it!
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 10:56:35 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
I look at it this way..the future of the AR/M16 system will be what the Army and Marines choose...


Very well put indeed.  I agree wholeheartedly, but in the meantime I sure do love my LWRC 6.8mm SBR.  It does everthing my other ARs do with out the cleaning and with utter reliability.

Stephen
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 11:01:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Where's the poll?

No.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 11:58:52 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There will also be advances in coatings,materials (plastics & metals),and propellents...that may also
effect form....


Thats the best answer.  New technologies will yield new parts.  With specific regard to your question though, yes, I (personal opinion) think future AR weapons would benefit from piston operation.  However, lets not kid ourselves, unless a major US military entity adopts a gas piston system, they will probably not be acknowledged as a big upgrade and never be acknowledged as a necessary one.  And further more, who ever gets their gas piston system adopted is going to make tons and the rest of us are going to fade somewhat or all together.  I think the m16 is close to reaching optimization.



oh boy, here we go with the LWRC opinions,,,,,,,,,hang on,,,,,,
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 12:07:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 12:11:16 PM EDT
[#27]

I would say the answer to your question was when Colt, LLC started developing the LE1020 Semi-auto only gas-piston carbine.

Colt historically does not give in to fads or trends, as we all know too well.
I still consider them the bellweather.



Link Posted: 7/25/2006 12:14:56 PM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
I would say the answer to your question was when Colt, LLC started developing the LE1020 Semi-auto only gas-piston carbine.

Colt historically does not give in to fads or trends, as we all know too well.
I still consider them the bellweather.

i1.tinypic.com/nqactf.jpg



That's not the first time Colt developed a traditional gas-piston upper, though.  IIRC, they developed one in the '70s, but there wasn't enough interest then.  It's in The Black Rifle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 12:37:53 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would say the answer to your question was when Colt, LLC started developing the LE1020 Semi-auto only gas-piston carbine.

Colt historically does not give in to fads or trends, as we all know too well.
I still consider them the bellweather.

i1.tinypic.com/nqactf.jpg



That's not the first time Colt developed a traditional gas-piston upper, though.  IIRC, they developed one in the '70s, but there wasn't enough interest then.  It's in The Black Rifle.


Very true. Like the ACR not all Colt's projects have taken off.  It's market driven for sure.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:17:18 PM EDT
[#30]
I was just on Bushmaster web site, and they are now offering a gas piston upper. I really don't know what to think at this time. This could be a fad and at some point burn out, or could possible turn into a complete replacement of the gas system for future AR15 manufactures. I guess time will tell.

Bruce_Wayne
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:35:13 PM EDT
[#31]
My ARs have pistons - they're inside the bolt carrier on the back of the bolt
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:45:30 PM EDT
[#32]
i dont think so. in the future if people want a piston driven rifle they will get a new rifle like a SCAR or SIG for example.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:49:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:56:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 2:59:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 3:28:28 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:








They look a lot alike to me...

TS
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 3:38:09 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
Someone posted a link to bushmasters gas piston upper, which someone else (love the internet) claims is POF-USA's system. If POF got Bushie to start selling their uppers they might be pulling ahead in the eternal battle of the arfkom gas piston upper manufacturers.



Personally I don't see the point. If you can't keep a m-4 running you can't keep 50 cal or about a million other things the Army uses running.The "shits where it eats" crowd must not shoot very much, or clean a lot more than I do.


Actually the M2 is much harder to keep running. The barrel literally unscrews itself as you fire requiring re-headspacing every few thousand rounds, a wonderful weapon but quite a bit more operator dependent I would say.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 3:49:52 PM EDT
[#38]
The Military will not adopt improved bolt designs from Colt, KAC and a few others simply because they do not want additional parts in the inventory.

Why do folks think that they would adopt a piston system that would add far more overall parts (Barrel assembly, carrier, and a piston/rod and spring assembly) to the inventory?
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 3:57:06 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
Newer systems that have a receiver captive recoil system to allow for a real folding stock (a la SCAR, SIG etc.)  are being developed and/or refined.


A real benefit/feature, IMO.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 3:58:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 4:13:31 PM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
i dont think so. in the future if people want a piston driven rifle they will get a new rifle like a SCAR or SIG for example.


What about spare parts availability?  A piston AR will have 99% of the same parts as a DGI AR.  Spare parts for SCARs and SIG 556's are going to be as easily available to be as maintainable as a piston AR? I don't think so.  The few different parts on a piston AR are available from the manufacturers and can be bought and stored for future use.

TS
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:12:08 PM EDT
[#42]
I think the AR will continue to evolve to finally resolve all the design flaws. It could be made perfect but it would take a whole lot more than a gas piston. Carrier driven by a captured return spring will be the next evolution to add a folding stock. In my estmation the gas system and carrier return system on the existing design are the two major design flaws that keep the weapon from reaching it's full potential.

Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:23:58 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:


If I had to arm a brigade size of rednech hillbillies in the middle of Kentucky, I'd air drop crates full of AK variants.  


My opinions, of course.  


Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:32:21 PM EDT
[#44]
I think we will see one or two dominant gas piston AR platforms when everyone is at full production, or just in production.  SOCOM will get the SCAR-L, then some officers will get a SCAR-L, then the Army will go all SCAR-L.  Hopeully a SCAR-L will be offered to the public and parts will be available, but I doubt it.  Getting mil-spec ammo now is almost impossible, and I don't mean because of the war.  Hornady could allow all civilians 5.56mm TAP, but they won't. Etc... So I think there will be one or two piston systems and the original Stoner system out there.

TS
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:40:06 PM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:
If I had to arm a brigade size of rednech hillbillies in the middle of Kentucky, I'd air drop crates full of AK variants.  If I had the same situation in the middle of TX, MT, IA, UT, SD, etc, and the folks there were members of a rifle club, NRA club, etc, and I knew they had some ex-military, ex-LEO, or likewise leadership available to add to their current knowledge of firearms (the AR15 platform in particular), I'd drop crates full of AR15 rifles.

My opinions, of course.  


Check your information, but most of the rednecK hillbillies I know around here already have AKs and ARs, and know how to use and maintain them.
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:42:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 7/25/2006 7:56:42 PM EDT
[#47]
Whether it is going to replace existing ARs, or just be a "cool new thing" will rely on the market (in which the military is a part.)  

Whether it is a step forward in the design, yes it is.  Stoner went away from DI, and began designing piston rifles himself.  

Why not just go to a Sig 556 or something else?  Because I like compatibility with my existing rifles, which are "common."  I bought an H&K SL8 and fixed it up the way I wanted it.  It cost me $2300.  I sold it and spent PART of that money on a L-W short-stroke gas piston AR.  I'm happier with the ARs ergonomics.  I'm not just USED to it, but I find it better for what I do.  

I might buy a Colt LE1020, or a POF, or the new Bushmaster, but I'm never again buying a DI AR-15.  So for me, YES, the future of (my) ARs will be gas piston variants.  
Link Posted: 7/26/2006 4:28:30 AM EDT
[#48]
I have a POF and a L-W upper. Both are a tad heavier than DI (especially the POF). Both were expensive. Those are the ONLY drawbacks IMHO.

Cleaning is a breeze (and I'm anal about it). Reliability is excellent. Accuracy is unaffected in my experience.

For "old times sake" I still have an A1 clone, but my other DI guns are gone. Except for my AR10 of course, and that would be GREAT to have a piston setup for.

I have to agree, though, that unless there is standardization among piston systems and preferably a military adoption of it, that they will remain a pricey "toy". But they are here to stay, even if in limited amounts.  

Link Posted: 7/26/2006 4:42:04 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
but my other DI guns are gone. Except for my AR10 of course, and that would be GREAT to have a piston setup for.




POF now is making a .308 gas piston AR10 clone, the P-308!.

Ask and ye shall receive.




That 11.5" .308 Commando maybe the SBR I have been dreaming of for some time now.
Link Posted: 7/26/2006 5:05:25 AM EDT
[#50]
The military seems to focus less and less on marksmanship.  Yet troops are still effective.  If you give the .mil weapons that are easier to maintain, then the troops would be freed up for other duties.  Training is a huge expense.  Getting troops up to speed faster with a weapon system that is easier to maintain (clean) saves money that would help offset the cost of upgrading weapon systems.  

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