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Posted: 3/9/2006 4:15:05 PM EDT
I thought this was an issue at some point ie a1 stocks broke and a2 were better made. Any truth to this?? Thanks
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:20:46 PM EDT
The original M16 stocks would tend to crack more often than the A2 stocks when put to severe usage (as in when a GI was carrying it every day).
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:35:22 PM EDT
Nope.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:47:12 PM EDT
Hand guards for the A1 didn't hold up to 11B(gruntsholdATB,
M.Chalmers
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 5:44:10 PM EDT
I have 2 A1 (trapdoor versions) w/ cracked buttplates.

A2 stock is made from a stronger material than the org a1 stocks.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:24:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:26:24 PM EDT
What about the CavArms versions?

Closer in strength to a .mil A2?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:26:51 PM EDT
You can still buy colt "CS" stocks. A2 design / material, A1 length.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:28:58 PM EDT
The origional A1 stock is made from a more brittle material. Like said, the Cav Arms stocks are a good way to go if you like the shorter length.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:53:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:07:12 PM EDT
great info, thanks to all.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:35:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GhostRing:
What about the CavArms versions?

Closer in strength to a .mil A2?


Much stronger than an A2, actually. And they don't have foam inside so the compartment is much larger.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:33:34 PM EDT
Not haveing the yellow foam lining in the Cav arms stock is a bad thing. It does not properly support the trap door and gives a loose feeling against the shoulder. I'd rather have a Colt A1 with A2 buttplate.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 4:52:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 110:
Not haveing the yellow foam lining in the Cav arms stock is a bad thing. It does not properly support the trap door and gives a loose feeling against the shoulder. I'd rather have a Colt A1 with A2 buttplate.



thats odd... My Cav Arms stock with a Colt A2 butt plate feels pretty solid to me.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:04:43 AM EDT
Tag and such!
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:31:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:08:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 6:10:34 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By CB1:

Originally Posted By 110:
Not haveing the yellow foam lining in the Cav arms stock is a bad thing. It does not properly support the trap door and gives a loose feeling against the shoulder. I'd rather have a Colt A1 with A2 buttplate.



thats odd... My Cav Arms stock with a Colt A2 butt plate feels pretty solid to me.



+1 when I had one it was solid with the butt plate I purchased from Fulton Armory.

Edit I should point out that different buttplates from different manufacturers does make a difference. There used to be a thread showing the differences in the hinge and how some were not well supported when used with the Cav-Arms stock. So try a buttplate from a different manufacturer if the one you have isn't tight.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 9:11:41 PM EDT
Noob here, tho' I've been lurking awhile.
Re: Cav Arms A1 Buttstocks; had one from Brownells; plasticky, and the stock followed the contour of the buffer tube. I was not impressed; is this normal on a Cav stock?

DDEL, do you have a source for the CS stocks? The A2s don't fit me.

thanks,
Moon
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 10:54:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By CB1:

Originally Posted By 110:
Not haveing the yellow foam lining in the Cav arms stock is a bad thing. It does not properly support the trap door and gives a loose feeling against the shoulder. I'd rather have a Colt A1 with A2 buttplate.



thats odd... My Cav Arms stock with a Colt A2 butt plate feels pretty solid to me.



+1 when I had one it was solid with the butt plate I purchased from Fulton Armory.

Edit I should point out that different buttplates from different manufacturers does make a difference. There used to be a thread showing the differences in the hinge and how some were not well supported when used with the Cav-Arms stock. So try a buttplate from a different manufacturer if the one you have isn't tight.



The buttplate and trapdoor i am using is Rock River. Guess i'll have to buy a Colt BP and TD. crap...
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By halfmoonclip:
Re: Cav Arms A1 Buttstocks; had one from Brownells; plasticky, and the stock followed the contour of the buffer tube. I was not impressed; is this normal on a Cav stock?




Mere cosmetics.

If you were a serious shooter you wouldn't give a damn.

If you want a beautifully molded and unblemished specimun, there are many Airsoft replicas out there.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:33:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 11:34:34 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By aeronc:
I thought this was an issue at some point ie a1 stocks broke and a2 were better made. Any truth to this?? Thanks



An 'original' M16A1 stock is going to be more brittle due to age...

The Army is now re-issuing A1s to use as training weapons, so that each and every AIT soldier can have his very own pet M16.... The stocks & HGs do infact break (which leads to frankenrifles -> A1 rifles wearing A2 furnature), and there is no 55gr ammo to feed them, but they allow everyone to see exactly how many stupid things an AIT private can do with a rifle & 5 blank rounds...
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:22:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 2:10:39 PM EDT by halfmoonclip]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Originally Posted By halfmoonclip:
Re: Cav Arms A1 Buttstocks; had one from Brownells; plasticky, and the stock followed the contour of the buffer tube. I was not impressed; is this normal on a Cav stock?




Mere cosmetics.

If you were a serious shooter you wouldn't give a damn.

If you want a beautifully molded and unblemished specimun, there are many Airsoft replicas out there.


Actually, Aye, the Cav Arms stock I had LOOKED like it should have been on an Airsoft something, which is why I asked the question. I was hoping it wasn't typical, as most here seem to like them. I certainly respect the opinion of a serious shooter; what are your feelings on duct tape on an AR?hMoon
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:47:52 AM EDT
Last weekend while firing my Cav Arms buttstock came lose because the screw securing it to the the buffer tube pulled through the buttplate totally disabling the rifle. I'm now looking for a couple of butt plates to replace those on my rifles. Cav Arms stocks seem plenty strong but plan on changing out the butt plate right off the bat. Tapco does have the 2nd's a lot cheaper than the new ones.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:59:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:05:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By halfmoonclip:

DDEL, do you have a source for the CS stocks? The A2s don't fit me.

thanks,
Moon



I've read here that the CS stock can be kind of elusive and pricey! S.A.W. has them for a hefty price.

www.sawlesales.com/
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:07:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DDEL:
You can still buy colt "CS" stocks. A2 design / material, A1 length.



+1. The Colt "CS" stock is the best fixed stock out there but unfortunately, they are VERY hard to find. The CavArms stock looks like a complete POS in comparison but in fairness, if you use a real A2 trapdoor on a CavArms stock, functionally they are just fine. The one thing the CA stock has going for it (other then price and availability) is weight. They are pretty light.

halfmoonclip - finding one is the trick. SAW Sales has them but you would have to be crazy to pay their asking price ($200). They come up on the EE once in a blue moon but when they do, they go really fast. What worked for me (and a few other people that I've seen) is to place a "WTB" ad on the EE. It will probably take a while and you will have to bump your ad a number of times but if you hang in there, you very well may get lucky.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:26:07 PM EDT
I have three CavArms C-1 buttstocks (Coyote, Green, and Black), and while they are not cosmetically as "perfect" as a Colt, I just don't see why that matters.

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:56:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I have three CavArms C-1 buttstocks (Coyote, Green, and Black), and while they are not cosmetically as "perfect" as a Colt, I just don't see why that matters.


I'm sure it's easier to rationalize it as a cosmetics thing or a Colt thing but as someone who has had both, I can tell you from my POV it is neither. It's a quality thing. While I have been told a number of times that CA uses some very highend plastic that will not break, it still feels and looks like a cheap air soft stock. The Colt CS is made exactly like the standard A2 stock that Colt, BM, RRA, etc. use so it has that same feel, heft etc.. Maybe Quality isn't the best word to use but I can't think of any better word to describe it?

I built my own AR's. I didn't do that to save money or have one that was good enough. I built mine to have the best ARs I could. After having both, I feel the "CS" stock is better then the CA version. That's why I own and recommend the "CS" stock. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:04:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cgv69:

I'm sure it's easier to rationalize it as a cosmetics thing or a Colt thing but as someone who has had both, I can tell you from my POV it is neither. It's a quality thing. While I have been told a number of times that CA uses some very highend plastic that will not break, it still feels and looks like a cheap air soft stock. The Colt CS is made exactly like the standard A2 stock that Colt, BM, RRA, etc. use so it has that same feel, heft etc.. Maybe Quality isn't the best word to use but I can't think of any better word to describe it?

I built my own AR's. I didn't do that to save money or have one that was good enough. I built mine to have the best ARs I could. After having both, I feel the "CS" stock is better then the CA version. That's why I own and recommend the "CS" stock. Just my $.02



Square Biz!!!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:18:32 PM EDT
In this case "feel" and "heft" are misleading. Just because a certail polymer is light does not mean it is low in quality or strength. That is the whole point behind modern plastics, isn't it? That and lower cost; Cav acheives these goals.

A better test is this: I was trimming away some of the "flash" on a Cav handguard with an X-Acto knife. The blades were destroyed in short order trying to trim the stocks. THAT is an indicator of the durability of the material.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:41:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 6:03:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Nope.



Yep, they are.

M16A1 stocks are fiberglass. A2 stocks are Zytel plastic and is several times stronger.



Yep.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 6:19:19 PM EDT
Tried a Cav Arms C1...twice. Have a Colt CS now.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 6:34:06 PM EDT
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 6:35:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:59:46 PM EDT
Krylon can also be scratched off, while the color of the Cav stocks is intrinsic to the material.

But here we are back again full circle to cosmetics
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:26:22 PM EDT
IIRC the question was pertaining to the original (pre-80s) USGI A1 stock, vis-a-vis Sarco M16-in-a-box kit, or the old shit that the Govt is using as tinker-toys for IET soldiers or selling off for a steal to your local podunck PD....

Not the modern re-incarnations made of a different material...
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:53:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Krylon can also be scratched off



Better put some felt on that brass deflector.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:07:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:24:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:27:33 AM EDT by Bradd_D]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.



If the justification for spending over $100 more for the Colt than The CavArms is cosmetic. Using Krylon defeats that justification.



If you're confident the C1 will suffice for your needs, bully for you. I've owned two and decided the CS was better for me. Of course, I won't use a Leaper's scope mount either so I'm probably the wrong guy to talk to.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:31:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:31:39 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:09:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 8:09:44 AM EDT by AyeGuy]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.



If the justification for spending over $100 more for the Colt than The CavArms is cosmetic. Using Krylon defeats that justification.



One hundred effing dollars MORE for a Colt stock?

Good God man even I would find that hard to justify.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:10:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 10:16:31 AM EDT by Bradd_D]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.



If the justification for spending over $100 more for the Colt than The CavArms is cosmetic. Using Krylon defeats that justification.



One hundred effing dollars MORE for a Colt stock?

Good God man even I would find that hard to justify.



Then don't buy one. The bottom line is that the C1 works for some and not others. I find it ironic, though, that we all spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on our AR's and yet some want to quibble over a $45 stock. You're welcome to like what you want, but don't condemn people because of the way they choose to spend their money. If the part serves the intended purpose, then it was money well spent to the buyer.

BTW, I just picked up another complete CS for $100. What would a C1 run you for the stock, tube, buffer, and spring?

Cav Arms C1...$45
RRA receiver extension...$16.50
RRA buffer...$12.50
RRA buffer spring...$4.00
A2 buttplate...$3.00
Milspec buttstock screw...$2.50

Total...$83.50
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 12:07:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.



If the justification for spending over $100 more for the Colt than The CavArms is cosmetic. Using Krylon defeats that justification.



One hundred effing dollars MORE for a Colt stock?

Good God man even I would find that hard to justify.



$100 more? I guess maybe if you are silly enough to pay SAW Sales prices? I paid $35 each for my 2 "CS" stocks (stock only). Both were in like new condition. From what I remember, CA stocks were around the same price before that one place started clearing them out. Be patient and look around.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:20:23 PM EDT
DSG has A1 stocks for cheap, but is it hard to find the tubes? Will my CAR buffer and spring work in it? Can you tell I'm a noob?
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:32:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Nope.



Yep, they are.

M16A1 stocks are fiberglass. A2 stocks are Zytel plastic and is several times stronger.




Thats right, HeavyMetal

According to Black Rifle II, the A2 stock -one of 13 enhancements included in the A1 to A2 transition - is between 10 and 12 times stronger than the A1.

They did drop tests from 96 inches landing squarely on the butt. The A2 also came with a new butt-plate and trap door that further strengthened the overall set up



Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:32:55 PM EDT
I bought a Colt A1 stock from J and T Distributing at a gun show a couple weeks ago. Price including Buffer, spring, and tube was $90. I don't know if the still have any, but that might be worth a shot.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:48:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Colt CS only comes in one color, if that matters to you.



Krylon is cheap.



If the justification for spending over $100 more for the Colt than The CavArms is cosmetic. Using Krylon defeats that justification.



One hundred effing dollars MORE for a Colt stock?

Good God man even I would find that hard to justify.



Hmm, I thought he meant $100 more for just the shell, not the whole assembly.

I retract my statement.

In the realm of AR expenditures, 20 bucks more is certainly justifiable, if that is what you want.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:00:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kahrk-9:
DSG has A1 stocks for cheap, but is it hard to find the tubes? Will my CAR buffer and spring work in it? Can you tell I'm a noob?



You use the regular rifle buffer tube, A1 buffer tube screw, and rifle buffer. An A2 stock uses a plastic spacer between the stock body and the rear of the buffer tube to increase the length of the stock.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:48:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
A better test is this: I was trimming away some of the "flash" on a Cav handguard with an X-Acto knife. The blades were destroyed in short order trying to trim the stocks. THAT is an indicator of the durability of the material.




I've never understood why Cav lets product out with that flash all over it. I've seen guns at the guns show and thought.. "Dang, cleatus. you couldn't even clean up this thing for the gunshow?"

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:54:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 5:07:07 AM EDT by zragon13]
I don't doubt that the A2 stock is stronger but I wouldn't consider the A1 stock to be fragile. The IDF still uses the M16A1 with their original buttstocks in daily front-line service and I have not seen any problem with broken stocks- only scratches and superficial fissure lines. The A1 handguards, on the otherhand, do crack and break and are frequently replaced by the round A2 type.
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