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Posted: 7/30/2005 4:56:39 PM EDT
[#1]
I very well may take my upcoming MRP with 16" stainless barrel to a Pat Rogers class in Dec. So I am interested to know as well.
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Posted: 7/30/2005 5:00:38 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd consider an older match barrel, but I'd hate to take a good part of the life out of my $425 Lilja barrel to shoot at mostly 25yds or less. I much more enjoy shooting a 16" match barrel at 600yds, it is more challenging.
I'd not hesitate to take an inexpensive (relatively speaking) RRA stainless match barrel, for example, though. Make sure it's something with a Wylde chamber, though. Your barrel is going to see some heat and if it's a super tight match barrel, you may run into issues with chamber tightness. It all comes down to $$$$ to me, I guess. I have a threshold for wallet pain. 
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Posted: 7/30/2005 5:41:29 PM EDT
[#3]
You might want to talk to pat or else read his comments re match barrels here:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000497#000000 |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 6:22:23 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 7/30/2005 6:42:22 PM EDT
[#5]
I'll second everything said here. Burning up a true match quality barrel at such distances is foolish. The recommendation of a Wylde-chambered SS Wilson is a good one. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 6:45:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Not all match barrels are chambered the same. A Wylde chamber, for example only has a slightly shorter throat, and a shallower leade than a GI chamber. Otherwise dims (body and neck diameter) are pretty much the same. How many rounds do they shoot in these carbine classes? 500? 1000? I have a Wylde-chambered, SS-barreled RRA with a NM two stage that has just over 3300 rounds and I've never had a failure. I doubt it would fail during a tactical class. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:03:24 PM EDT
[#7]
The bigger question would be why??? your going to a class where the main teaching point is how to fight with a Carbine. Your just inviting problems with match anything on what should be a 2-300 meter carbine capable of 2-4 MOA accuracy.
Your going to blow a lot of cash and time and then act surprised when you start having problems and have to go to your back up gun or burrow some one else's..... plus not to mention the fact that you slow the class down as they wait for you to Un F&^% yourself and get a working gun back on the line. Plenty of first hand accounts by intructors who see problems with non chrome chambered or non 5.56MM chambered barrels consistently. That should be a clue right there. While your at it, load up on about 1400 rds of that plastic cased PCM Ammo. its a few dollars cheaper then some good reliable factory ammo. hopefully you hear the squib putting a bullet down your barrrel and stop before you attempt to put another round downrange.... best advice has already been given, ask your Intructor and see what he thinks. My $.02 save it for when your on your time at your home range 
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:57:35 PM EDT
[#8]
When I went to take my first carbine class, I cut out the middleman and simply asked Pat Rogers himself what I should bring.
Then I brought exactly what he told me. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144067&highlight=GUnsite I can assure you that if you ask Pat Rogers about bringing a carbine with a match chamber, match trigger, scope etc. He will advise you not to bring it and if you do, make sure you bring a spare carbine. But, what does he know ? |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:59:03 PM EDT
[#9]
My reason for considering it would purely to see if it could. A class is a great chance to put something like this up against something other than range fun. I've got a few guns that have been through multi day, 1000+ round classes. Im reasonably confident they can do it. I could take the class with one of the same guns, yet again, and be perfectly happy with the same guns performence. Or I could take a gun like a Recce, and see if it makes it instead of just wondering? Recce's are supposed to give you a very accurate short rifle capable of being used up close if need be. The accuracy department is easily established. What about the rest? I for one am very interested to know if it could go the distance in a class environment. And dont talk to me about holding up the class. Please. If my rifle became problematic, I'd get it cleared ASAP. If that didnt work, I'd pick up one of the others. If it did work for me, well then, I'd have something valuable to share. In fact, I think I'd have something valuable to share if it didnt. If just to proove all you guys right.
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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:07:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Understood.
For a guy like you that has taken multiple classes previously, I see your point. However, for the first timer, I wouldn't experiment. If you go to a five day class and your carbine craps out on day one: it will be five very long days. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:10:45 PM EDT
[#11]
In some of these classes you'll fire 1500 rounds in three days, most of it in a few long sessions. Under this abuse, I GUARANTEE you'll damage a stainless barrel. Whether it will work or not I don't know, but stainless is not known for its response to being fired while already superhot.
The exception would be a Noveske barrel. I have seen those in carbine classes, and the 10-8 crew loves them. Polygonal rifling and a loose match chamber seem to make the difference. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 9:38:47 PM EDT
[#12]
1500 rounds in 3 days? I've done way over 1,000 in a day running drills through a SS barrel and not had issues. What are you basing your comments on? How many SS barrels are you running? Your "GUARANTEE" of what? Damage is a relative term, so you could apply that to any time you shoot any rounds through ANY barrel you are wearing it out. Clarify your remark to be more specific. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 8:32:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Combat, funny you should mention Noveske and polygonal rifling. That's what I'm considering.
My purpose in posing the original question was, does anyone have any firsthand knowledge? I know the arguments against. I am NOT considering a match trigger, or anything else-- just trying to figure out if there is a "best of all possible worlds" solution out there which would allow a highly accurate barrel AND survivability in SHTF. In terms of barrel length, material, chamber, etc., let's reframe the question: What is the most accurate type of barrel that will survive some abuse, in the form of excessive heat, like a carbine class? |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 9:59:56 AM EDT
[#14]
As far as heat is concerned I believe a chrome lined 4150 would be the way to go.
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Posted: 7/31/2005 10:03:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Well my M4gery barrel is marked match, don't know if it is really, but i ran it in a class. Honestly if it's a gun you may one day have to fight with, which it could be. Why not just take the class with the gun, match barrel or not. It's abarrel it should hold up just fine.
Of course this comes from the prospective of you never know what gun you may have handy when you need to use it to save yer ass. To answer the re-phrase of the question if the barrel can't take a two or three day carbine course, I don't care who made it, God himself could and I still wouldn't trust it in SHTF or with my life durring regular times. What you have to ask yourself is is this a target gun, or a fighting gun. I don't own any "Target" guns. I've seen may different barrels on guns in classes, and read of people using many different barrels some high doller barrels at that and they all shot fine in the classes. If it's a quality barrel it should be able to handle anyting you throw at it, in any situation and environment. If it can't do you really want it on your gun?? |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 10:24:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Chrome lined chrome vanadium would have better thermal properties than 4150, why would 4140 not work? We are talking about a semi auto after all. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 10:52:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Hmm good question, but being a semi auto don't mean you can't get that gun raging hot. MisterPX got his AR so hot he literaly melted his handguard. But to be honest he was bump fireing it and it did take something like 13 mags IIRC. 
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Posted: 8/1/2005 12:08:42 PM EDT
[#18]
SS has a much shortened life when used hard. Which is why I don't use it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 4:35:35 PM EDT
[#19]
+1 remember the thread where the barrels failed at....
Chrome is better, but I would no lose sleep if I did'nt have chrome Thread link www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=243136 |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 8:35:03 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm taking my 16" Douglas 1:7 Wylde Chambered barrel to a carbine class next week (with a KAC tirgger to boot) - I've done a lot worse to it than 1k a day...
I have a 10" LMT as a backup. We shall see.  |
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Posted: 8/1/2005 8:45:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Oh no!!!! It will be a jamo-o-matic! Pat Rogers said so. 
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Posted: 8/1/2005 9:06:23 PM EDT
[#22]
I NEVER discount what Pat says.
However this is more of a GP gun than a tack driver. I've shot it a lot so I am pretty familiar with its capabilties and limitations. I think Pat was giving guidance to people who don't shoot a few k of rounds a month.
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Posted: 8/1/2005 10:40:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Really? How many SS barrels have you gone through? |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 12:28:56 AM EDT
[#24]
FWIW, my DPMS CL 14.5" 'AP4' (M4 profile) 1/7 went through a ~1200 round 3 day course without trouble. Saturday I put 800 rounds through at another class and had one type III, stuck fired case in the CL chamber. Repeated attempts to clear only resulted in removal of case rim where the extractor over-rode it, and the case required a light tap with a rod to pop it loose.
Personally, if [insert component here] can survive a day's torture of at least 500 rounds without extensive cooling periods without issue, I'd consider it GTG. Being mechanical of course, anything can die whenever it wants to, regardless of the brand stamped on the side. Some have better odds than others
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Posted: 8/2/2005 4:49:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Originally frow SWO_daddy
Amazing, Someone asks an opinion on a position, you give yours as the ultimate answer and then mock a guy who get's paid for his opinion. an Opinion basd on 30 plus years of shooting AR's who has seen thousands of AR's firing Millions of rounds.A guy who has trained thousands of people and who's civillian classes are ALWAYS full 6-9 months in advance. And people wonder why he does not post here anymore  That's OK, I 'm smart enough to know who's Opinion I value just a little bit more...........along with a few others... (guess where you fit in that...... )
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:26:42 AM EDT
[#26]
The other side to that is that you have guys that take everything Pat says/writes as gospel and let you know, that your way of thinking or looking at something is wrong because Pat said it was(sorry I've run into a few of those guys and they annoy the shit out of me). Pat don't know everything, but he knows a shit load more then me, so I try to take in the things he writes and try them out and consider them. Some of it works for me, some doesn't. Some I agree with, some I don't. Someone elses experiances can't tell you if something will work for you or not, it can only tell you what works for them and what doesn't. I still hope to get into one of Pat's carbine classes one of these days so I can get a different prospective on things. And If I do I'll run what I know works for me, not what somone elses says will or won't work. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:02:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Man, Pat HATES carry handle optics. I love my compact acog on my M4A2gery's carry handle. I think its perfect. But, then again, what do I know....
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:06:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Is a SS Noveske barrel considered match?
I've heard (read) great things about them.......but I have no personal experience with 'em......yet  I've seriously been considering an SBR with a Noveske barrel.......... |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 12:15:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Unless I run across a great deal in the interim, that's what my next bbl will be. Would I abuse it at a class? Not when I'm paying for it
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:41:18 PM EDT
[#30]
From talking to people in the AR barrel business, I have learned that when heated, SS throats burn out much faster than either chrome lined or chrome moly. Slowfire, the difference is much less notable. I have been told that SS has half the life when used repeatedly in rapid fire or automatic, compared with chrome moly. The source of my statement that SS barrels may not work is a comment made to me by Patrick Rogers. He told me that almost all SS barrels have tighter chambers, and that as compared with chrome lined, these chambers get tighter as they get hotter, and often they will start to jam up if you use them hard. Cliff notes: SS wears more dramatically than any other material when fired while the barrel is very hot, and many SS barrels have a tight chamber that will expand when heated, sometimes beyond tolerances for the ammunition, causing a jam. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:48:34 PM EDT
[#31]
I am partial to chrome, as the difference between a 1" and 1.5" gun in the field is negligible. The Noveske looks promising. Polygonal rifling offers a few (admittedly theoretical, unproven) advantages, including resistance to throat burn out and less heat build up due to reduced friction. Some of the 10-8 crew loves the Noveske, because they see them work a lot better than what they see of conventional SS barrels, with the extra accuracy of a match barrel. The 10.5" Noveske I saw had 12,000 rounds through it and still shot sub-MOA. I was offered a chance to shoot it, but didn't have time. Mostly, just make sure you get a 5.56mm chamber. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:53:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Never gone through a SS barrel. I shoot almost all chrome lined barrels, although I did flip an OAI upper with a SS barrel once. I don't think I ever shot it. If I was looking for an accurate rifle, I would definitely go with SS, but I wouldn't put four mags through it on auto, or in semi firing as fast as possible. I would have no qualms firing four mags fast through a chrome lined barrel, and I have fired M4A1s like that. With an expensive barrel, I wouldn't even try it. If you have a SS barrel that isn't burned out and doesn't jam when you run it hard, I'm glad for you. I am sure there are many, many barrels like that out there, but too many people who would know have advised me to avoid SS barrels on GP/CQB guns. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:55:59 PM EDT
[#33]
DILLIGAF what you think? |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:56:32 PM EDT
[#34]
They run a 5.56mm "Match" chamber (designed for MK262 and the like, I suspect) and from firsthand reports seem to shoot sub MOA all day long, in the 10.5" flavor. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 7:33:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally from SWO_daddy
Then you'll love my response in the offhand shooting thread... I like the respone, very articulate and well thought out, you'll go far... Originally from Photoman
I agree with you, The amount of koolaid one drinks should be sampled from different sources. And Most good Intructors will tell you that this is 'A" way and not "THE" way. and to take bits and pieces from each one, the problem is most are not smart enough to go back to the well of knowledge and drink from different cups, so they only get to sample one flavor. The part that cracks me up is most shooters Don't know what really works and second guess guys who have a wealth of experience and are freely willing to share that experience with them. Good example, Pat Likes Colts, he has a high opinion on them based on his experiences. I have Bushmaster. I feel confident in it as I have shot it and had about 10K thru it. Lost a locking lug on the bolt on day 2 of his class. Pat did'nt rub it in my face and said "Ha I told ya Bushies suck", he took a pic and placed it in with his other pics of parts that fail and the round count, guess what, Pat has accumulated data that has shown him that this is not an uncommon failure for Bushmaster bolts at this round count. I put a spare Colt Bolt back in and completed the course. Somewhere down the line someone will ask him the Question "How are Bushmasters??" he's not gonna tell ya they suck. he's gonna share with you his experience with data he has compiled over a long period of time. Does'nt mean a Colt Bolt won't fail and a Bushy Bolt will always fail. Just that the odds are gonna be different based on his data. Sully's gonna do the same thing and share his experience based on his experiences and what he see's across a long period of time. Now it's up to the individual to use or discard that data. Human nature dictates that Man never likes to be told he's wrong, or he made a bad choice. its a fatal flaw in all of us, but I betcha I replace that Bolt with something other then a Bushmaster bolt......... |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 9:25:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Here's my 2 cents on the original topic. You could run it with an airsoft as long as you grasp and understand the concepts presented. As long as you go home retaining the knowledge you've just learned, and practice it, you'll be doing fine. Someone who shows up to class with all the best gear who thinks they know it all already and doesn't listen, and never practices the info learned, is someone who just wasted their time and money. If the SHTF, I'd rather have airsoft guy than gear man fighting beside me.
BTW, I wasn't bumpfiring, just doing a little overwhelming odds practice. 
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Posted: 8/2/2005 10:45:00 PM EDT
[#37]
You guys crack me up.
At a class, you want reliability. There's nothing about a SS match barrel that makes it inherently unreliable, though you probably don't want to use a minimum-spec SAAMI match chamber. News flash! -- Every round down the barrel "does damage" in the form of throat erosion. If I can abuse my JP match barrel with 550+ rounds in 20 minutes at the ITRC, getting it hot enough to turn the stainless purple/grey, and then repeatedly quench it with water, and afterwards it still shoots sub-MOA from the bench... What are you worried about? I mean, come on! In short, just make sure your rifle is not a POS, and shoot it. If you have a $500 match barrel you shoot in High Power, you might not want to choose that one. -z |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:49:12 AM EDT
[#38]
COMBAT JACK : You claim that SS barrels are less resistant to heat induced throat erosion than are chrome-moly high vanadium barrels. Thus you claim that they have a shorter useful life. You also claim that these SS barrels both EXPAND and CONTRACT when they are used for sustained rapd fire. Lilja Barrels, who specialize in making SS barrels noted for their high levels of accuracy, specifically state that SS barrels are more resistant to throat erosion than chrome moly barrels and have a longer useful life in terms of accuracy. So what is wrong with SS over chrome-moly? Why are your observations in conflict with those of a major barrel manufacturer?
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:58:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Uh oh , Harv24 will be by shortly to set you straight because you do not toe the Pat Rogers line. 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:05:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Rhetorical question: What are the J-N 14.5" "AFGHAN", 16" RECON, and 10.5" CQB barrels which he wrote about in the latest SWAT magazine? |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:07:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Got me, I don't read SWAT magazine. And are you talking about Rogers or Harv 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:33:27 AM EDT
[#42]
According to the JN Rifleworks(Noveske) website, they use Pac-Nor stainless barrels.
He does the other machine work, but they are Pac-Nor barrels, with Pac-Nor polygon rifling. Pac-Nor makes very good barrels, and we also have used them for our blanks from time to time. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:36:47 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:48:22 AM EDT
[#44]
Zak is that 5.56 chamber or a .223 chamber on that barrel? Whatever somone wants to use thats personal preferance obviously, but as you said yer better off with a 5.56 chamber, I agree with that. Match barrel or not I think the chamber is going to have more to do with the reliability of the barrel/gun then the metal used to make the barrel. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:54:15 AM EDT
[#45]
Wylde |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:55:12 AM EDT
[#46]
Photoman - I concur and recommend that the chamber be in 5.56 Wylde in a match grade barrel whether it is SS or CM.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:20:08 AM EDT
[#47]
Its a Noveske Match chamber (proprietary). I think either all or most of the 10-8 crew runs Noveske barrels with LaRue Tactical Free Float Rails. C4 www.GRTactical.com |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:23:51 AM EDT
[#48]
This is correct. C4 |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:52:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Originally from SWO_daddy
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:55:02 PM EDT
[#50]
originally from SWO_daddy
Ya'know...it's comment's like that, that are gonna force me to post a pic of myself wearing my Highpower jacket in a bladed offhand stance......... 
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