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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:32:00 PM EST
I`ve never liked using slide/bolt catches to charge a weapon. I was taught on handguns never to use the slide release but to rather pull the slide back and release. Having that kind of raising I tend not to use the bolt release on my AR either. I discovered a while back that with the bolt locked to the rear, you can flick the charging handle back to release the bolt. By giving the charging handle a good flick to the rear, the momentum of the charging handle impacting the bolt carrier is just enough to knock the carrier back and release it. I have a badger ordinance tactical latch which adds weight to the charging making it easier to perform this. It is possible to perform this with a standard chargin handle.

I am just curious if anyone else practices this technique? And also, can anyone think of any adverse effects this might cause?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:35:38 PM EST
I've never heard of any problems ever using the bolt/slide catch on an AR or on a pistol. I don't see any reason not to use them. They're part of the design, not to mention it's easier and quicker and safer to use it as intended.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:35:54 PM EST
I never use the slide release on a pistol... But I always use the bolt release on the M16/M4 rifles...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:38:44 PM EST
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:39:23 PM EST
I use both on the AR and pistol all the time, if the maker put it there it should work without any problems otherwise the gun is a POS
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:40:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 5:41:13 PM EST by DM1975]
From what I was taught on the old 1911's it could cause a jam, now this might be wrong but the theory I heard was that the force exerted from the slide when the slide release was used was not enough to chamber a round 100% of the time... Like I said, this might be wrong and probably is.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:41:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 5:44:04 PM EST by 00_buckshot]
I only use the charging handle one time and that is to charge the weapon. The rest of the time I accomplish it by palming the bolt release. It is much faster and more user-friendly. Not to mention less wear on your charging handle and upper receiver.

ETA: How do you accomplish re-charging the weapon using the charging handle and at the same time keeping the rifle shouldered like you're suppose to. Doesn't the charing handle hit you in the face when you pull it back?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:43:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 5:43:47 PM EST by SFR]
i use the slide/bolt release on all my weapons, thats what its there for. but to each their own.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:49:50 PM EST
Gunsite teaches it. I use it. I can't wait to take their courses, especially their Tactical Carbine course!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:51:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 5:52:17 PM EST by THellURider]

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?




Well, on many pistols a "slide release" is not a "slide release" at all, but a "slide stop". The Glock comes to mind. By not pulling back the slide from the slide stop and releasing it, rather than using the "slide stop" you are robbing the recoil spring of nearly 10% of tension that it could use to go back into battery. This tension could be the difference between teh round chambering or not. 95% of the time it won't matter really but.....

Besides this reason there is also the muscle memory. Firing with gloves on can make it difficult to manipulate a "slide release" and leave you hanging trying to charge your weapon. There is also the muscle memory involved when going through immediate actions dills.

If you do this the same way every time you will remember it. Grab the slide behind the ejection port, with your hand cupped over the slide, thumb towards you. Yank it back at yourself and release.

On the otherhand, I use the bolt release on my AR.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:53:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By SFR:
i use the slide/bolt release on all my weapons, thats what its there for. but to each their own.



Me 2. I guess if you have delicate skins on your fingers, or nail polish, you would seek a different method.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:02:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By THellURider:

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?




Well, on many pistols a "slide release" is not a "slide release" at all, but a "slide stop". The Glock comes to mind. By not pulling back the slide from the slide stop and releasing it, rather than using the "slide stop" you are robbing the recoil spring of nearly 10% of tension that it could use to go back into battery. This tension could be the difference between teh round chambering or not. 95% of the time it won't matter really but.....

Besides this reason there is also the muscle memory. Firing with gloves on can make it difficult to manipulate a "slide release" and leave you hanging trying to charge your weapon. There is also the muscle memory involved when going through immediate actions dills.

If you do this the same way every time you will remember it. Grab the slide behind the ejection port, with your hand cupped over the slide, thumb towards you. Yank it back at yourself and release.

On the otherhand, I use the bolt release on my AR.



I have seven Glocks. I release the slide with that button thingy on the side. Every time. Tens of thousands of rounds. It seems to work every time. I can pick my nose with gloves on. In the rain too. Therefore, it hasn't been a problem with my Glocks. Most 'implied engineering' glock problems are conveyed to us unwashed by non-glock owners. Not to offend, just saying..........
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:08:02 PM EST
DM1975
Team Member
High Speed Solar Powered Infantryman

210 ways to be an Army of one;
1 way to be a soldier,
and 209 ways to support him...


Hijack alert.

So you got 18Bs supporting you there troop?


Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:09:38 PM EST
The reason there are slide releases in pistols is for you to use them. If it's not chambering a round every time, it's time to find a different gun or at the very least, go down to a good gunsmith. The reason EVERY major firearms academy teaches using the slide release is speed. Any pistol you own, you should be able to operate with one hand and load the magazine with the other. If you can't you have the wrong gun (it's probably too big for you).
The way a proper reload in any weapon should work...the hand that's on the grip hits the magazine release, drops the magazine (I don't believe in any of this tactical reload crap), while at the same time, your weaker hand reaches for a new magazine, fingers the tip of the first round to make sure it is properly seated, slams the magazine in the well, and in a pistol, your strong hand hits the slide release while in an AR, the weaker hand hits the bolt release. After the round is chambered and you're ready to fire, you can pick up the magazine you dropped (if there are any round left in it) trying to avoid looking down. With practice, this should be done in around a second.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:16:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 6:16:51 PM EST by THellURider]

Originally Posted By wildearp:

Not to offend, just saying..........



I own a few Glocks too. And I'm just saying...

YMMV, but there is truth to what I said.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:22:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
DM1975
Team Member
High Speed Solar Powered Infantryman

210 ways to be an Army of one;
1 way to be a soldier,
and 209 ways to support him...


Hijack alert.

So you got 18Bs supporting you there troop?





Dont like my sig huh?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:40:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:48:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 6:50:40 PM EST by model927]
I wack the bolt release with the palm of my left hand when reloading and Im bad,I use an extended slide release on my 1911s.I can see how pulling on the slide with your hand can give it a little extra momentum but I use 20lb wolf springs in my 1911s as I walways use 230 grain standard and heavy loads.I have to admit though before getting the extended slide stops I used to pull back on the slide,reminded me of reloading an M14.I always tugged on the oiperating rod as the catch is to small to operate quickly .
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:54:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 7:00:45 PM EST by gaspipes]

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?



It won't hurt the gun or anything.

The ONLY reason it's not recomended on a handgun is because in a self defense situation, under stress, you will loose your fine motor skills. Putting your thumb on that slide stop is definetly a fine motor skill, where as grabbing the slide and jerking backward to chamber the round is not.

Look at the parts diagrams of most pistols. The nomenclature usually calls it a slide stop, not a release.

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:58:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:00:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:06:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:
The reason there are slide releases in pistols is for you to use them. If it's not chambering a round every time, it's time to find a different gun or at the very least, go down to a good gunsmith. The reason EVERY major firearms academy teaches using the slide release is speed. Any pistol you own, you should be able to operate with one hand and load the magazine with the other. If you can't you have the wrong gun (it's probably too big for you).
The way a proper reload in any weapon should work...the hand that's on the grip hits the magazine release, drops the magazine (I don't believe in any of this tactical reload crap), while at the same time, your weaker hand reaches for a new magazine, fingers the tip of the first round to make sure it is properly seated, slams the magazine in the well, and in a pistol, your strong hand hits the slide release while in an AR, the weaker hand hits the bolt release. After the round is chambered and you're ready to fire, you can pick up the magazine you dropped (if there are any round left in it) trying to avoid looking down. With practice, this should be done in around a second.



Which major firearms training academy have you been to? Fingers the tip of the first round? If you're fingering the tip of the first round, you took to long to reload.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:07:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
...in a self defense situation, under stress, you loose fine motor skills. Putting your thumb on that slide stop is definetly a fine motor skill, where as grabbing the slide and jerking backward is not.




This was the real world reasoning I was given. I was also told it reduces unnecessary wear on your weapon. Bolt catch not bolt release..... I`m sure that wear is minimal but why cause it when you don`t have to. Kinda like pressing the button in on your emergency brake while you pull it up rather than letting it rachet up. Probably all psychological anyway.


Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
How do you accomplish re-charging the weapon using the charging handle and at the same time keeping the rifle shouldered like you're suppose to. Doesn't the charing handle hit you in the face when you pull it back?



You can still keep the weapon shouldered. You just lift your head slightly. Just enough for the charging handle to pass under your chin. The advantage I like is you don`t knock the rifle laterally by slapping it on the side.



As was said before everyone has their own ways........
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:07:40 PM EST
I always use the bolt or slide release.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:09:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 7:09:45 PM EST by gaspipes]

Yes it can hurt the handgun. Those little slide stops break off. Glocks do have a problem with this.


Never seen one break, not from pressing it to release the slide anyway. Got 4 Glocks. Thousands of rounds through them. Broken several parts, never a slide stop though. In any case, they are cheap and easy to replace.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:15:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:17:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?



It won't hurt the gun or anything.

The ONLY reason it's not recomended on a handgun is because in a self defense situation, under stress, you will loose your fine motor skills. Putting your thumb on that slide stop is definetly a fine motor skill, where as grabbing the slide and jerking backward to chamber the round is not.

Look at the parts diagrams of most pistols. The nomenclature usually calls it a slide stop, not a release.




We have a winnner! In a combat situation you should "sling shot" your slide: it works with every semi-auto pistol so you don't have to worry about where that little slide-stop thingie is, especially if you happen to pick up one that you're not familiar with (and we all do non-familiar weapons training, right?!).

With your AR, whacking the bolt realease is far from a fine motor skill: you smack that sumbitch with the palm of your hand and bring the pain, baby!

Two completely different weapons, two completely different techniques.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:23:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Just curious, don't let me hijack...

Why is it not recommended that one use the slide release on a pistol?



It won't hurt the gun or anything.

The ONLY reason it's not recomended on a handgun is because in a self defense situation, under stress, you will loose your fine motor skills. Putting your thumb on that slide stop is definetly a fine motor skill, where as grabbing the slide and jerking backward to chamber the round is not.

Look at the parts diagrams of most pistols. The nomenclature usually calls it a slide stop, not a release.




Thankyou, I can't believe there were that many self appointed experts who didn't manage to give the correct information.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:04:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 11:05:48 PM EST by Alien]
So what happens when you don't apply enough force and the charging handle doesn't have enough inertia to kick the bolt carrier back enough to release it? What then? I know what happens...

Anyway, if you hit the bolt release, it releases the bolt each and ever single time (assuming your rifle is functioning correctly). Press, and release. It's pretty much fool proof. If you press on it and it doesn't release, you just press harder while your palm is still there.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:12:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I never use the slide release on a pistol... But I always use the bolt release on the M16/M4 rifles...

+1 my pistol releases are tiny, but i dont want bigger ones to snag on stuff.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:18:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:19:29 PM EST
The bolt catch/release on Ar15/M16 is a gross motor skill, as you are using your entire hand or palm.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:45:11 PM EST
I always use the slide/bolt release. I guess pulling back on the slide of an autopistol is OK, but on the AR you have to pull the charging handle way back to engage the bolt carrier. Also, I thought that the Army taught to always lock the bolt back, load a magazine then hit the bolt release. Something about the charging handle can get damaged (possibly) while being pulled forward quickly by the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:19:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 12:22:20 AM EST by FishKepr]
FWIW:

I've been to two different defensive schools and they both reccomended pulling back on the slide on auto-pistols, each citing the KISS gross motor skill theory. The Tacoma PD issues Kimbers and they also teach pulling the slide.

EDITED TO ADD:
I almost forgot: For ARs, bolt release all around.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:24:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By THellURider:
Well, on many pistols a "slide release" is not a "slide release" at all, but a "slide stop". The Glock comes to mind.




Funny, I never really saw this technique until the Glock with its flat nub of a slide release got popular. Suddenly this was "the way" to do it for all pistols.



Yeah, I have to do this on my Glock, come to think of it. My HK is easy to operate with my thumb.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:24:58 AM EST
you should not goto slide lock.

Ar, use the release thats what its for.

1911, mine if i seat the mag hard enough the slide will close on its own. If I can help it I try to reload before the mag is mt, i ride the saftey on a 1911, usally my thumb will keep the slide stop from coming up.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:25:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By BMM4A3:
I`ve never liked using slide/bolt catches to charge a weapon. I was taught on handguns never to use the slide release but to rather pull the slide back and release. Having that kind of raising I tend not to use the bolt release on my AR either. I discovered a while back that with the bolt locked to the rear, you can flick the charging handle back to release the bolt. By giving the charging handle a good flick to the rear, the momentum of the charging handle impacting the bolt carrier is just enough to knock the carrier back and release it. I have a badger ordinance tactical latch which adds weight to the charging making it easier to perform this. It is possible to perform this with a standard chargin handle.

I am just curious if anyone else practices this technique? And also, can anyone think of any adverse effects this might cause?



I was always taught to pull the slide (or bolt) back to release a semi-auto rather than using the catch. I'm not sure about "flicking" the charging handle, but with my new AR I pull the CH back until I hear the catch release, then either "ride" the bolt forward on an empty chamber or release unrestricted to strip and chamber a round from a fresh magazine. I'm sure that any well-made semi-auto can handle thousands of lever releases, but I don't make a habit of it. My thought is this: Every time that I close the bolt or slide this way will be polishing (read=wearing) the interface between the catch/lever and the slide/bolt. I'd do it in an emergency in a heartbeat, but I would hate to have closed my gun that way over it's life, only for the catch to fail in it's job the one time I need for it to work (to signal I'm empty and assist me in doing a quick reload).

Mike
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:53:01 AM EST
I'm as newbie as one can get, so if this question is stupid just shoot me now (please use 6.8 SPC not .22LR upper) ... but I don't see any mention one way or the other in any of the above of lefty shooters. Frankly at this point in my life all my shooting is at the range, so combat (real or serious training) issues aren't directly informing my techniques, but being a lefty, I've found at least something screwy about every weapon I've handled. So, for those leftys that see lead coming back at them, where "in theory" goes out the window and "in practice" is what matters: How do you tackle this issue (and other handedness things)? I'm assuming you don't go with the 'customized for a lefty' (ambi safety, ambi mag release, left side eject, etc) weapons, but rather train yourself to be able to handle whatever weapon you might have to pick up when things are less than perfect.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:59:09 AM EST
I use the bolt release on my AR, but on my DR200 I use the handel on the bolt.

As for pistols, I pull back the slide except on my G21 which is easy to hit, and my P7M8 since the grip cocking action releases the slide.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:03:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:
I use the bolt release on my AR


I thought you said you didn't have an AR
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:05:23 AM EST
El_Roto and Stickman pretty much covered what I was going to say.

I used to release the bolt by pulling it back also just because of thinking habit from pistol. But I soon realized this it's just extra unnecessary motion. Not to mention a few other drawbacks: releases prematurely and hitting yourself in the face/throat/chest, not being able to shoulder the rifle and prealign sights, and you could bend or wear or wear the charging handle (afterall that charging handle is not guided to ensure going back straight).

On a funnier note sometimes I don't even need to use the bolt release. If I hit the magazine in hard enough or smack the rifle hard enough the bolt release will go. BTW it's a Colt.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:13:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 2:26:55 AM EST by Tweak]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:28:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By twonami:
I use both on the AR and pistol all the time, if the maker put it there it should work without any problems otherwise the gun is a POS



+1
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:26:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I never use the slide release on a pistol... But I always use the bolt release on the M16/M4 rifles...



Me too.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:33:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I never use the slide release on a pistol... But I always use the bolt release on the M16/M4 rifles...



Me too.



Roger that.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:33:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:37:33 PM EST by The_Friendly_Sponge]
Left-handed shooter here.

1. When shooting auto pistols, I have in the past, used my left index finger to manipulate the slide release and move the slide forward into battery. Problem is, each auto uses a different size slide release and locations vary. Sig 226 and 220 pistols are among my favorite sidearms (own both). The slide release is located to the rear of the frame and is almost impossible for a lefty to access (me anyway) while holding the pistol. Therefore, I learned long ago to rack the slide to the rear to move into battery. I personally find this to be the best technique for ANY auto pistol I shoot.

2. AR-15? I hit the bolt release (usually with my index finger and my hand still on the grip). I can't imagine anything more cumbersome (or slower) than using the charging handle to release the bolt.

YMMV
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:33:12 AM EST
Tweak:

Pat Rogers taught us to use the bolt release when I took his carbine course earlier this year, and that's good enough for me! In fact, it was the charging handle that was used administratively, to "load and make ready" and to "make a Condition 4 carbine" – other than that, we didn't touch it.


Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:34:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Friendly_Sponge:
Left-handed shooter here.

1. When shooting auto pistols, I have in the past, used my left index finger to manipulate the slide release and move the slide forward into battery. Problem is, each auto uses a different size slide release and locations vary. Sig 226 and 220 pistols are among my favorite sidearms (own both). The slide release is located to the rear of the slide and is almost impossible for a lefty to access (me anyway) while holding the pistol. Therefore, I learned long ago to rack the slide to the rear to move into battery. I personally find this to be the best technique for ANY auto pistol I shoot.

2. AR-15? I hit the bolt release (usually with my index finger and my hand still on the grip). I can't imagine anything more cumbersome (or slower) than using the charging handle to release the bolt.

YMMV



ME too, TFS. My main handgun is a Glock 23 and I have always actuated the slide stop/release with the index finger of my left hand. As with your experience with the Sig, I found out the same thing with my Sig P228 that I bought a few months ago. With the AR I definately use the bolt release/stop or whatever you want to call it. That way the weapon stays to your shoulder and it's must quicker to manipulate than fooling with the charging handle.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:49:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 4:51:49 AM EST by Duffy]
Jeff Gonzales teaches to rake the slide whether loading the first round or reloading, he also says it's a slide stop, not a slide release. As I recall it simplifies loading/reloading, you use the same motion for both and therefore no finger manipulation to remember, you always rake the slide, works for me. Seems a bit slower but by raking it you give the return spring all the force it posseses to go forth and strip a round from a fresh magazine.
As to AR15, we were taught to use the palm to slap on the bolt release, then use the firing hand's palm to push the forward assist. When loading, insert the mag until it clicks, then pull down on the mag to make sure it's fully seated, then use the firing hand's palm to push the forward assist. Many people may think the FA is useless, we trained till it became as natural as keeping the finger off the trigger, whenever a round is loaded by the user, use the FA.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:15:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By caneau:
... while at the same time, your weaker hand reaches for a new magazine, fingers the tip of the first round to make sure it is properly seated, slams the magazine in the well, and in a pistol, your strong hand hits the slide release[/b] while in an AR, the weaker hand hits the bolt release. After the round is chambered and you're ready to fire, you can pick up the magazine you dropped (if there are any round left in it) trying to avoid looking down. With practice, this should be done in around a second.



In addition to the other drawbacks of using the "slide stop" to release the slide instead of gripping the slide and racking it backward, the method of using the strong/shooting hand to release the slide using the "stop" can cause, under stress, a release of the slide w/o a fully seated magazine, now you've got an empty chamber. The ability for a weapon to reliably chamber a round or not w/ the use of the slide stop as the release mechanism has very little to do w/ whether or not its a tactically sound practice. For that matter it isn't tactically sound to shoot your AR or pistol to the point of slide stop.

/S2
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 5:15:52 AM EST
I think on handguns pulling the slide back is a gross motor skill so it is more easily done during stress. Practice both, that way if your slide release breaks off or your hand gets shot off in the middle of a reload you know that there *is* another option.

I don't know if there is a right way. As far as no one recommending slingshotting the slide, a two handed method, until glocks came along, the original 1911 design has the slide release so far forward that was/is hard to reach it with your thumb without changing your grip on the pistol. It was meant to be hit with the thumb of your left hand after you seat the magazine. So a 1911 isn't super friendly to a one handed slide release in the first place, although the motion is very nature as your other hand hit the release as you push the gun forward to the target.

On ARs, bolt release all the time. If you are a lefty with long fingers, reach around the magwell to release the bolt. I find that I can't comfortably release it with the trigger finger of my left hand. So I rotate my hand up to where I can get two fingers on the release and push it in. Another way is the palm slap over the top of the rifle with the right hand.
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