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Page AR-15 » AR Discussions
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Posted: 5/11/2003 10:06:18 AM EDT
We know that Bushmaster delivered a small number of the carbines and that it was put to an end after Colt got snippy over it.

I've seen that the numbers of Bushmaster M4s is down around only 4k guns manufactured around that time that went to the 82nd Airborne.

How about Colt production numbers that were delivered during that time?

I'd like sources and numbers if possible.    I've found a group of folks who are insistant on claiming that the M4 wasn't around before 1994 because that was the offical adoption date for the M4.    They also try to back up their statements by asserting that CAR-15s were used in the BHD incident so that must be conclusive proof to them that the M4 wasn't available yet.

I know the stupid things were seeing use in Desert Storm but I just don't know in what kind of numbers.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:43:16 AM EDT
Ugly -- I don't have an answer for your question but, I do know that once Iraqi Freedom was underway there was a "run" on AR-15's at my local gun shop.  Every time I went in some guy was buying an AR-15.  For a while before the war the interest was in FAL's.  Not anymore! I think the Bushmaster AR-15 is a great carbine at a great price!
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:29:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 1:12:38 PM EDT
You happen to have any decent links with a time line of the M4 roll out?   It's likely this isn't the type of information that is easy to find on the net but every so often surprises come up where people can provide copies of contracts listing numbers requested.

I know I have a Guns&Ammo magazine around here some place that lists some of the developmental history of the M4 but I don't know how date specific it gets.   Just need to dig it out and see what other things they list.

How about the introduction date for the M4A1 in comparison to the the older "A2 carbine" M4s?

Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:28:08 PM EDT
The XM4 project started in 1984 right after the M16A2 rifle was adopted.

List of Colt Carbines

XM177E1 1965-1967(Used by AirForce into 1990's)

Xm177E2/GAU-5 1967-1972(Still in use up to 1992(USA)---late 90's (USAF) Most USAF guns have been updated with new stocks and BBLS

Colt 653( 14.5"M16A1 carbine) 1972-1985(Still in use, most have been rebarreled)

Colt 723 1985-1988(M16A1/C8 carbine with Case Deflector still in use) Model 733 has 11.5" bbl

Colt 727 1988-1991 (M16A2 carbine also called the Abu Dhabi Carbine, but was in use by selected US military units before hand.

Bushmaster M4 type carbine(M16A2 carbine with 14.5" BBL, all issued guns had there furniture replaced with Colt parts before being issued. The first 50 or so had Colt Aluminum XM177 stocks on them.About 350 were made and issued to NSW and SF units.

Colt M4 carbine 1991-1994(M16A2 carbine with 14.5 M4 profile barrel)

Colt M4(927) Carbine 1994-(Flat-top with 14.5 M4 BBL 3rd burst

Colt M4A1(977) carbine 1998-(Flat-top with 14.5 M4 BBl and Full-auto.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 7:39:56 PM EDT
Thx for the heads up.

Funny your screen name Colt 653 is one of the models I looked up earlier today researching this whole thing.    Funny that the 653s that were shipped to Israel are darned near an M4 with the exception of the A1 upper and the 1:12 twist.

Going back to the Bushmasters, is the number only about 400 that were manufacturered?   Another website out there I found claimed that closer to 4000 of the things had been made for DesertStorm before Colt stopped them dead.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:21:16 AM EDT
Actually Colt-653s timeline is a little off;

This is all stuff I have personally observed in 8 years as a Commo support guy for SOF:

Colt M-4a1 (heavy barrel) replaced most M-4a1s in SF in early 2001

Colt M-4A1 (normal barrel) entered general SF service in mid 1995.

Colt M-4 (same as M-4a1, but with burst) entered regular army service in mid 97. Mostly to Airborne, Air Assault units. There were only a few in each unit initially and were issued to NCOs and Officers. Now days there are enough to go around.

Bushmaster M-4- only one I have ever seen was in the hands of a CAG operator in 1995. About the time the M-4A1 was getting normal distro.

Colt M-4- Still in Use by some NAVSOF units. I have seen 3 or 4 different ones, and they all had commercial markings. Before the M-4A1, most Army SF were issued an M-16A2. Some direct action Army SF units did receive them though. They were not general issue to conventional units, though some LRRPs units might have taken them. And, of course the Rangers had some also.

Colt M-4 (a1 upper with deflector)I have seen them in the hands of NAVSOF, and regular Navy persons. Also some CAG operators. But they are rare.

Colt Commando (a1 upper with deflector, 11.5" barrel) saw somewhere that Marine Recon units issued them to staff and rear persons.

XM-177E2- Saw one in the hands of a Air Force SP in 1996. I have also seen some that have had M-4 barrels and modern plastic stocks added.

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