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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 7/1/2008 12:55:10 PM EST
This seems to good to be true. A piston conversion that doesn't require any gun modification except to remove the gas tube.

http://www.gaspiston.com/

And it is to be the least expensive. I hope it's not vaporware.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 1:41:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/1/2008 1:42:36 PM EST by Hunterex]
"SALES RESTRICTED TO LAW ENFORCEMENT MILITARY ONLY!"

I'd really prefer not to have to purchase an unproven conversion using letterhead.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 2:03:29 PM EST
Why in the hell would they limit sales to LE only? It's a piston conversion kit not an automatic weapon. I guess I don't understand limiting your market and sales.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 2:46:01 PM EST
I think you can already pre-order them through certain distributors (i.e Talonarms) for expected delivery sometime in July.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 3:41:13 PM EST
Hm...

Key statement in their video:


The host gun will fail long before the Osprey Conversion does...


The gas key was designed to be struck by gas not metal.

I've yet to see the "torture test" video they claim to have.

Also their lack of spell-checking the presentation vid speaks volumes about their attention to detail.

"CONTAMINENTS" anyone???

BTW where the hell do the solids (carbon, unburnt powder, "CONTAMINENTS" etc. )that are ported into it go if it isn't vented at all?
Just build up inside the unit?

They make a lot of claims without actually making any statements they back up IMO.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 3:54:50 PM EST
Looks like a whole lot of BS to me.

Yeah, the host gun will fail before the piston, because their piss-poor engineering will cause undue wear to parts that were not designed to take those stresses. Not because their system is so badass.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 7:23:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/3/2008 7:25:52 PM EST by alpine18]
I'd love to put a piston system on my carbine, but I am going to take the wait-and-see approach with the OPS-416. The OPS-416 seems to be the best on paper: No gases vented behind the muzzle, stainless steel construction, and it fits under standard handguards (which as prevented me from buying other piston systems, since I change handguards depending on my mood).

There seems to be a lot of both positive and negative press on this conversion - so far the positive info is from the ops-416 marketing, and the negative info seems to be from folks that have way too much experience in this area (i.e. competitors). I'll just wait for the reports from real folks (assuming they can actually buy it).





Link Posted: 7/3/2008 8:07:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By carbine85:
Why in the hell would they limit sales to LE only? It's a piston conversion kit not an automatic weapon. I guess I don't understand limiting your market and sales.


I believe I saw on the website that they want operators whose life depend on their weapon to have first dibs on the units and then they will sell to public.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 3:58:08 AM EST
Please explain how you can make a claim of "piss-poor engineering". Seems like sour grapes to me.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 5:53:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2008 5:54:11 AM EST by rocko]
Don't know anything about the product, but I find it very amusing that they seem to be trying to capitalize on the name recognition of the HK416 (even down to the "LE Sales" restriction, which I think in some cases is used as a gimmick). And given the fact that the HK416 is called that because of a trademark infringement case filed by colt when it used to be called the HKM4, wondering if HK would go after these guys if it ever got big enough to warrant their attention.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 6:48:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By janblake:Please explain how you can make a claim of "piss-poor engineering". Seems like sour grapes to me.


Using the standard AR15/M16 carrier WILL result in damage to the receiver extension tube. No ifs, ands, or buts. Also, I have my suspicions about damage to the carrier key.

So if they made poor decisions like that, what OTHER poor decisions did they make? This system is analogous to dropping an LS7 in a stock 69 Camaro and not changing the transmission or rear end. It simply isn't going to last.

Oh, and the "operator" thing is BS. First off, the list of "operators" is limited to DEVGRU, Delta/CAG, and HRT, if I remember correctly. Not every dude with an AR. And no "operator" is going to pick some random piston system and stick it on their rifle without testing it first - and this would be a unit level decision anyway. Also, CAG use HK416s last I heard.

Lots of people are jumping on the piston bandwagon. These guys are just looking to cash in. This system has zero chance of being adopted by the military, and they know it.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 7:15:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2008 7:19:38 AM EST by janblake]
Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested. The design has extensive FEA and 3D analysis in advance to extensive testing. This is the reason that the release is not until next Month. The background of the design and testing will be released with the product. Many hours of design metalurgy and testing went into being able to use the new key with the existing bolt which is not seen by simply viewing the key. There is alot in the timing of the system that also reduces the impact and recoil. You are stating your opinions as if they are "facts'.Now you have the facts.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 7:25:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By janblake:Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested. The design has extensive FEA and 3D analysis in advance to extensive testing. This is the reason that the release is not until next Month. The background of the design and testing will be released with the product. Many hours of design metalurgy and testing went into being able to use the new key with the existing bolt which is not seen by simply viewing the key. There is alot in the timing of the system that also reduces the impact and recoil. You are stating your opinions as if they are "facts'.Now you have the facts.


Sounds good!

What about the receiver extension tube?
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 7:43:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2008 7:48:43 AM EST by janblake]
Which part of the receiver tube are you concerned with?Consideration to the receiver tube has been addressed.Please make clear your exact area of concern,and I will address it. The system has a lower rate of fire if mounted to ,and compared to the same setup ,and Osprey has calculated the trapped air volume ,so that it is pulling the bullet out to early. If the valve is rotated it will allow a suppressor to fire at about the same rate as non suppressed. This will reduce wear on the suppressed guns of which fire up to ,and over 100 rounds per minute faster. The chamber and valve have changed,but have not been publicly shown. There is a non valve unit which will be released at a later date for non suppressed versions, although it will work with suppressors, but not reduce the rate of fire.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 7:50:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By janblake:
Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested. The design has extensive FEA and 3D analysis in advance to extensive testing. This is the reason that the release is not until next Month. The background of the design and testing will be released with the product. Many hours of design metalurgy and testing went into being able to use the new key with the existing bolt which is not seen by simply viewing the key. There is alot in the timing of the system that also reduces the impact and recoil. You are stating your opinions as if they are "facts'.Now you have the facts.


I'm confused.

New key?

Where is this in any of the info that has been 'released'.

BTW: Please don't make yourself out to be a shill for the product.

If you are actually involved with the manufacturer of the item in some capacity state so instead of just spouting that you are 'someone in the know'.

More damage than good will be caused by the latter approach judging by prior threads about new AR developments in my experience.

LWRC rings a bell.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 10:47:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By janblake:Which part of the receiver tube are you concerned with?Consideration to the receiver tube has been addressed.Please make clear your exact area of concern,and I will address it. The system has a lower rate of fire if mounted to ,and compared to the same setup ,and Osprey has calculated the trapped air volume ,so that it is pulling the bullet out to early. If the valve is rotated it will allow a suppressor to fire at about the same rate as non suppressed. This will reduce wear on the suppressed guns of which fire up to ,and over 100 rounds per minute faster. The chamber and valve have changed,but have not been publicly shown. There is a non valve unit which will be released at a later date for non suppressed versions, although it will work with suppressors, but not reduce the rate of fire.


Damage to the receiver extension tube caused by the carrier tilting downward under the force of the op-rod. This manifests as accelerated wear to the six o'clock portion of the RET.
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 9:12:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 5:48:29 AM EST by ARCo]
height=8
Originally Posted By janblake:
Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested.



Will this system work with 5.45x39mm in a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system ?

Will the Daniel Defense Omega rail fit over the ops-416 ?


Dimensions of hand guard
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 7:26:45 PM EST
Just checked Talonarms to see if the ops416 was available . It looks like it has been delayed until August. There will be a rifle length available also.

I am looking forward to trying this w/ the Russian 545x39.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:14:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 7:48:27 AM EST by bb2007]

Originally Posted By janblake:
Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested. The design has extensive FEA and 3D analysis in advance to extensive testing. This is the reason that the release is not until next Month. The background of the design and testing will be released with the product. Many hours of design metalurgy and testing went into being able to use the new key with the existing bolt which is not seen by simply viewing the key. There is alot in the timing of the system that also reduces the impact and recoil. You are stating your opinions as if they are "facts'.Now you have the facts.


here are some "facts" that i heard directly from the salesman at the 2008 shot show:

1) no torture testing had been done (ie. 5000+ rounds). often times the shearing of the carrier key does not occur right away.

2) no testing at all had been done with a suppressor. ares kits have been know to completely blow the piston out of the spigot, and the piston getting stuck on the lip of the spigot upon carrier return. i have seen this personally. in the case that i witnessed, the suppressor being used was a surefire. the ares has gas vent holes...the osprey does not...testing is fundamental in this application.

i held the unit...saw the unit...listened to the salesman.

thumbs down. i dislike salesmen that blow "operator" smoke, and then admit they have not done the proper testing. if it is meant for operators...then test it for operators...lives are on the line.

all this theoretical testing and talk is vaporware. post videos of actual tests being conducted.

go to youtube, and look up "adams gas piston". lots of people testing the unit. proof is in the pudding...not blueprints, and gas capacity tests, etc. only real world tests with a wide variety of ammo (from dirty wolf to mk262) counts.

you will even find robert at talonarms with his own video tests of the adams arms unit. i find it funny, since talon arms is supposed to carry the osprey, and he does not have a video test of him running an osprey system.

note: i have owned and tested pof, lwrc, ares, and soon the adams piston systems. so i like piston systems.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 6:02:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARCo:

Originally Posted By janblake:
Coming from someone who DOES have inside knowledge of the system,and the extensive engineering involved, there are many things the public is not aware was taken into consideration ,and tested.



Will this system work with 5.45x39mm in a 16" barrel and carbine length gas system ?

Will the Daniel Defense Omega rail fit over the ops-416 ?


Dimensions of hand guard


I can tell you for sure the OPS-416 will not fit under any DD rail. DD is too narrow, however, the Adams will work fine provided you are ok with a gas block swap out.



Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:27:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By bb2007:

here are some "facts" that i heard directly from the salesman at the 2008 shot show:

1) no torture testing had been done (ie. 5000+ rounds). often times the shearing of the carrier key does not occur right away.

2) no testing at all had been done with a suppressor. ares kits have been know to completely blow the piston out of the spigot, and the piston getting stuck on the lip of the spigot upon carrier return. i have seen this personally. in the case that i witnessed, the suppressor being used was a surefire. the ares has gas vent holes...the osprey does not...testing is fundamental in this application.

i held the unit...saw the unit...listened to the salesman.

thumbs down. i dislike salesmen that blow "operator" smoke, and then admit they have not done the proper testing. if it is meant for operators...then test it for operators...lives are on the line.

all this theoretical testing and talk is vaporware. post videos of actual tests being conducted.

go to youtube, and look up "adams gas piston". lots of people testing the unit. proof is in the pudding...not blueprints, and gas capacity tests, etc. only real world tests with a wide variety of ammo (from dirty wolf to mk262) counts.

you will even find robert at talonarms with his own video tests of the adams arms unit. i find it funny, since talon arms is supposed to carry the osprey, and he does not have a video test of him running an osprey system.

note: i have owned and tested pof, lwrc, ares, and soon the adams piston systems. so i like piston systems.


bb,


I will answer this backwards.
First, you are correct that I don't have video of OPS-416 yet. Right now, we are taking pre-orders for reservations only as they are not available yet. The latest updates from Osprey is that a final battery of T&E will be performed over the coming weeks and production units will be shipping shortly after.

As for the Adams videos on youtube, yes, you will see more and more as time goes by. The Adams system is great. I freaking love it! Any piston conversion that is commercially available at this point can be found on youtube. You can't compare that with Osprey as they have not started shipping production units yet. When they are available, we will post vids for sure.

Also, don't put much stock in SHOT show talk. That was almost six months ago. Since then, they have had some real world testing of prototypes. How much and under what circumstances, I can't say because I don't know. Production units will be tested by different groups over the coming weeks. Talon Arms will be monitoring testing by two LE groups in Texas.


The bottom line is that any speculation on the OPS-416 is wasted energy at this point. Until we have a production unit in our hands, we can only assume good or bad things about it. What impresses me is the fact that Osprey has not just made a system and sold it waiting for the end consumers to find any week spots. They are doing things slowly, but they are doing it right. The only thing I am concerned with at the end of the day is a bunch of happy customers.


On that note, a lot of people have asked why we are selling both the Adams and the Osprey. Simple, the more options we have, the better position we are in to fill your needs! Talon Arms is positioned to sell an LWRC for anyone looking for a complete rifle or factory built upper receiver, Adams for someone looking for a conversion kit that will work with a mid-length and many free float rails and Osprey as a drop in kit for a mil-spec type upper.

The OPS-416 is not a perfect conversion kit. Nor is any other that I have seen. The object is to get the best conversion kit for the upper you have, or build a new one with the features you need. As far as we are concerned, we like what we have seen from Osprey which is why we have chosen to represent them.

I think that when they final production units ship, you will be happy with what they offer, even if you like something else better for your needs. I am currently running two Adams systems and plan on an OPS-416 for a S&W MP15 with M4 handguards and an A2 front sight post. The OPS-416 is my only option to convert it to a piston without swapping the FSB. I have room in my safe for more than one version.

R


Link Posted: 7/22/2008 6:19:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 10:30:00 AM EST by bb2007]
Thanks R -

You are a stand up guy, so I know that any opinions YOU give later will be based on some real tests.

I will reserve final judgement for later. Looking forward to seeing your videos!

BB out
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 6:56:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By strick909:

I think that when they final production units ship, you will be happy with what they offer, even if you like something else better for your needs. I am currently running two Adams systems and plan on an OPS-416 for a S&W MP15 with M4 handguards and an A2 front sight post. The OPS-416 is my only option to convert it to a piston without swapping the FSB. I have room in my safe for more than one version.

R




There's always the ARES.
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