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Posted: 4/22/2004 11:29:14 AM EST
I'm getting 1/2" to 3/4" groups at 100yds with a DPMs 1 in 9 stock 16 inch bull. This stuff is great for $12 per 40 rounds at Wallmart. Its clean too. Anybody know what powder or other components they use?
Link Posted: 4/22/2004 7:55:56 PM EST
I've been really impressed with this stuff too. I'm getting the same accuracy as you and they work good on ground squirrels.

Consider this, if I were to buy brand new brass and reload some varmint rounds it would cost about the same as these allready manufactured.

Brass- $.14
Powder-$.08
Primer-$.01
Bullet-$.08 at least
total- $.31 per round

Winchester 45gr- ~$.30

My problem is that I've got a pile of brass and I could save a lot making my own. But it's too easy to just pick them up at Walmart especially when they shoot so good.
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 7:55:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2004 7:57:20 AM EST by Wingman26]
Cost for reloading:

brass .00
primer .0145
bullet .04851
powder .028125

Total cost to reload 9.1 cents per round

Winchester 30 cents per round


bullet $48.51 per 1,000 www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/607652
primer $14.50 per 1,000 powdervalleyinc.com/WINprimers.shtml
powder $63.00 for 8 lbs Accurate powdervalleyinc.com/accurate.shtml

Link Posted: 4/23/2004 8:30:21 AM EST
Yeah but what are they using for this round? What components?

Also, I thought my 1:9 twist was designed to shoot 62 gr. best...so why won't it shoot the 55 gr Federal, but shoot the 45 gr win. so well?
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 9:02:51 AM EST
i recomend to all to shoot a 45gr jhp at a full pop can... it completely inverts the can... its fun
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 9:44:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2004 9:47:03 AM EST by JoeyA]
maybe I got a bad batch, but the Win 45gr varmit shot really bad in my guns...I didn't pay attention to accuaracy but I felt a burning spray and looked and the cases were popping at the bottom right before it tapers down. This happened in my Mini-14 and AR....though the ones that did shoot fine, made that milk jug full of water think twice.




Bushmaster Dissipator AR-15
Romanian AK-74
H&K G3
Mini-14
Beretta 92FS
'63 Remington Model 1100 semi 12ga

Link Posted: 4/23/2004 10:03:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wingman26:
Cost for reloading:

brass .00
primer .0145
bullet .04851
powder .028125

Total cost to reload 9.1 cents per round

Winchester 30 cents per round


bullet $48.51 per 1,000 www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/607652
primer $14.50 per 1,000 powdervalleyinc.com/WINprimers.shtml
powder $63.00 for 8 lbs Accurate powdervalleyinc.com/accurate.shtml




I sorry but I don't get near these prices were I live. There are a few things you aren't considering either.

Don't forget shipping and hazmat fees.
Although it would probably work fine, the 55gr SP is not very comparable to a JHP varmint round.
Your getting brand new brass when you buy the complete cartridges, so if you are going to compare you have to consider the initial cost of brass (or at least divide it out over how many loads you can get out of it).

For a quality varmint round using used brass It would practically cost me about $.16 per round. I use Alliant RLDR15 and Hornady EX bullets. Including shipping costs (including shipping and hazmat yours would run about $.12 per round, not including brass).

widmn, the reason you are seeing better groups with 45gr JHP than 55gr FMJ? is bullet construction, and possibsibly more consistent powder charge. The JHP is constructed in a way that makes the bullet more uniform and consistent which gives you much better accuracy, and because winchester is marketing these as varmint rounds they might be making sure the powder charges are more consistent.
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 10:09:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By JoeyA:
maybe I got a bad batch, but the Win 45gr varmit shot really bad in my guns...I didn't pay attention to accuaracy but I felt a burning spray and looked and the cases were popping at the bottom right before it tapers down. This happened in my Mini-14 and AR....though the ones that did shoot fine, made that milk jug full of water think twice.




Bushmaster Dissipator AR-15
Romanian AK-74
H&K G3
Mini-14
Beretta 92FS
'63 Remington Model 1100 semi 12ga




Now that's just wierd, I've never had a malfunction of any kind shooting this stuff, and I've gone through quite a bit of it. I wouldn't expect it to shoot well though the Mini , but the Ar should be fine .
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 10:12:44 AM EST
Are pretty much all JHP made in a way that makes them more accurate? If so, I will stick to those when I start reloading. Can you recommend a brand of JHP or others that I should start with?
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 12:17:53 PM EST
I believe so.

I really like Hornady and Sierra bullets.

I get very good results with.
For General target shooting and otherwise: Horn 68gr BTHP, and SMK 69gr BTHP

For varmints I like: 52gr SMK (these are match bullets but work very well on varmints, thier might be better but I got a lot of these on sale and they are very accurate).

I'll be trying some Hornady 55gr SX soon (super explosive) these sound pretty awesome.
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 11:25:23 AM EST
I agree,I have tried many types of ammo in my bushmasters,superlight,14" W/ak,and 20"(all 3 are 1/9 twist) Some of the Black Hills shoot ok to good and some factory stuff is pretty good but nothing really beats the Wall Mart Varmit. I have not shot any furry things with it but it tears up pumpkins better than anything short of .22-250. Military 55GR will only poke a pencil hole in a punkin,Varmit tears them up good.I have got to believe it would work fine on Varmits.(all types and leg counts)
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 2:26:39 PM EST
These have worked well for me as well. I have seen bad batches of this stuff though. I have seen crimps which look like coke bottle top crimps. Better looking lots have been a bargin. I posted some lot#'s a while back but do not have that info handy. When buying this stuff, I look at it. Stuff looking good has shot 3/4 to 1" at 100 in a rifle which shoots other factory loads more consistantly 3/4". Component info I do not have. Excellent 223 stuff is cheap and reliable at low cost.
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 6:04:39 PM EST
I too have had good results with this load. 3/4" groups are the norm out of my colt with a 1 in 9, 20 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 7:56:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2004 7:57:05 AM EST by Torf]
I don't know what bullet they use, or where it comes from since I haven't been able to find any from suppliers. They are accurate though. They ought to be able to be handloaded for less than commercial cost, but the savings isn't a lot if you don't already own the equipment.

Hornady 40 grain V-Max bullets - $22.95 for 200
Winchester new brass 223 Rem - $107.79 for 1000
Commercial Powder H335 - $16 per #
Primers - $2 per 100
(prices from MidwayUSA.com)

Total comes out to about 23 cents per round if you load your brass 4 times.

12/40 = 30 cents per round, so a savings of 7 cents per shot can add up, but not necessairly pay for much new equipment.

You will get better accuracy though from handloads. I get about 1 MOA accuracy from WW 45 JHP ammo, but about .75 MOA from handloads, fired in a standard Bushmaster A3 rifle.
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 11:44:39 AM EST
It shoot well out of my Bush Varminter, I can call my shots. bullet placement is very consistant.
I have shot several 3 round 1/2 groups, but the real fun is out shooting my competitive brother blasting birds @ 100 plus yards with shooting sticks.

It took 150 rounds of barrel break in before it really starting shooting consistant
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 6:33:28 AM EST
I was able to get 3/4 groups@100 as well from my Bushy. Great stuff for the price.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 10:26:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/28/2004 10:28:39 AM EST by AR15KittyKat]
Potential Problems with these rounds ?

1. Weak non-heat treated necks, not crimped, so potential bullet setback & creating over pressure.

2. Crimped, sharp hollow point tip edges, may/can catch on feed ramp & cause feeding problem.

These rounds are great for bolt actions, but ARs fast feeding bolts....

Anyone had any of the problems mentioned above ?
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 11:17:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15KittyKat:
Potential Problems with these rounds ?

1. Weak non-heat treated necks, not crimped, so potential bullet setback & creating over pressure.

2. Crimped, sharp hollow point tip edges, may/can catch on feed ramp & cause feeding problem.

These rounds are great for bolt actions, but ARs fast feeding bolts....

Anyone had any of the problems mentioned above ?



Whadda trying to do? Cause a flame? This stuff is so great I could do a Winchester ad for it. Today I was shooting 1/2" to 3/4" groups at 100yds with a 16" bull barrel, DPms lower and oly upper. I think much of that is my poor shooting technique. I can't believe the accuracy. No feed problems or anything else.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 7:21:48 PM EST
This is the round that new-arguy shot the first of his MOA 300yd groups with out of his M4gery
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 6:16:11 AM EST
Went squirrel hunting with it last weekend.

I'll tell you one thing. The ground squirrels sure don't like this stuff.

Anybody want to see the video.


SPLAT!
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 9:06:38 AM EST
I do, I do!!

Link Posted: 5/4/2004 12:07:42 AM EST
I've noticed that this stuff is accurate, too. Probably the most accurate mass-produced, available-just-about-anywhere ammo.

I wish Winchester made a 55-grain or 62-grain version of this bullet. Their FMJ stuff isn't anywhere near this accurate.


Here are the things I don't like about this ammo:

It does not chrono anywhere near the "3600 fps" claimed on the box. More like ~3000 fps from a 16" barrel. I have very conservative 55-grain handloads that do 2900 with a heavier bullet.

The stuff does not make minor power factor for USPSA 3-gun matches. At least not from a 16" barrel. If it did, I wouldn't use anything else.

The 45 grain bullets have a poor BC, run out of steam rather quickly, and have a rainbow-like trajectory at longer ranges. Bullet drop @200 meters (when sighted in at 100 yards) is 17 1/4 MOA clicks, or 4.25 MOA, or ~8.5 inches. The good news is that once you have it "dialed in", you can nail stuff all day.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 3:35:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Plinker-MS:

It does not chrono anywhere near the "3600 fps" claimed on the box. More like ~3000 fps from a 16" barrel. I have very conservative 55-grain handloads that do 2900 with a heavier bullet.

The stuff does not make minor power factor for USPSA 3-gun matches. At least not from a 16" barrel. If it did, I wouldn't use anything else.







Link Posted: 5/4/2004 4:35:11 AM EST
With tax, it's more like $.32/rd -- probably even more than that. I think it's $12-something / box.

Anyone tried the Wolf JHP from Ammoman? $.13/rd...

Mike
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 6:39:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By michael_aos:
With tax, it's more like $.32/rd -- probably even more than that. I think it's $12-something / box.

Anyone tried the Wolf JHP from Ammoman? $.13/rd...

Mike



Yes, the difference in accuracy is almost as unbelievable as the difference in price!

If you are looking to hit a 3 inch target at 200 yards, stick to the Winchester JHP. If you are trying to hit a 6 inch target at 50 yards, blast away with the Wolf.

Both rounds have their uses.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 7:01:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By michael_aos:
With tax, it's more like $.32/rd -- probably even more than that. I think it's $12-something / box.

Anyone tried the Wolf JHP from Ammoman? $.13/rd...

Mike



Ya, I would let you know how it performed on ground squirrels but I could never hit any with it. Wolf JHP is no varmint round. It's good for shooting milk jugs.


(I'm still working on my vid, having hosting problems)
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 4:18:17 PM EST
I tried it today and was very pleased. The only problem I have with it is it's very dirty compared to the blue box Black Hills 40gr ammo I normally use in my Bushmaster Varminter. I was getting 1/2" to 3/4" 5 shot groups for the first 25 shots, then it opens up giving 1" to 1-1/2" groups until I clean the bore.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 9:55:22 PM EST
I've been shooting this stuff for years (ever since I got my AR). It has always been the most accurate round, no matter what I tried, including Black Hills. Always 1 MOA or much less. The only problem I've ever had with it is it has a tendency to jam with the Colt 20 round magazines. Feeds great out of everything else into my DPMS. Go figure. And it is kinda pricey compared with some other stuff out there, but it is so much more accurate it more than makes up for it.
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