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Posted: 7/17/2017 12:19:26 PM EDT
I will be building my first SBR when my stamp comes back, and was wondering if there is an advantage of a wylde barrel over a 5.56.  Most of the rounds I have are in 5.56 for 16 inch rifles and I know that a wylde can shoot those as well.  Just wanting the pros or cons since I am building this one from scratch.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 12:23:15 PM EDT
[#1]
From what I've gathered on this site, there's no big advantage of picking a .223 Wylde chamber unless you're going with a high-end match grade stainless steel barrel for precision shooting.  For your basic AR used as a fighting weapon, just pick a 5.56 chamber.  I have a .223 Wylde chamber in my 16" AR, and it's nothing special.
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 1:49:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Unless you're trying to build a precision SBR, which is somewhat mutually exclusive, get a regular 5.56 chamber.
Link Posted: 7/18/2017 8:53:30 PM EDT
[#3]
For a Precision based rifle it may make sense. I wouldn't pick a lower end barrel in Wylde though. The rest of the barrel has to be manufactured to the correct tolerances fit it to matter as far as accuracy guess. Take a look at the new Faxon match grade 223 Wylde barrels. They are stainless with qpq coating and have np3 barrel extension. Right to bear has the Gunner version in stock on sale with free shipping. Faxon gets very good feedback and they are a good value
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 1:05:55 AM EDT
[#4]
do you like shooting steel case ammo wyde eats steel case ammo my BCM, FNH  in 5.56 nato don't eat steel case ammo reliably.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 3:53:59 AM EDT
[#5]
No steel ammo, and not a precision build.  Looks like 5.56 it is.  Thanks for the replies.
Link Posted: 7/20/2017 2:58:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Wylde holds the bullet tighter in the chamber so it is slightly more accurate compaired to a 5.56
Link Posted: 7/21/2017 5:02:40 AM EDT
[#7]
From my files.

Posted By: Bill Wylde
Date: Thursday, 13 November 2003, at 8:46 a.m.

"In Response To: Re: .223 Wylde

The case dimensions of the Wylde reamer are that of one of the NATO prints. Not a thing tight about it. As I recall, there were two NATO prints in use. I don't recall the print number used, but do have it in old records somewhere.

Throating was about the only change. The decision was made to make the freebore diameter .2240" as a good bullet seal. That done, excess freebore made little difference to accuracy. One of the reasons the magazine length 69's shot so well in the chamber. It so happened that the 80 grain Sierra seated to the lands was about ideal at .2470" OAL. Simple luck.....All of it.

The initial reamer (designed in 1984) was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes. This operation was slow in getting off the ground, and really didn't start happening until about 1990. The use of 5.56 NATO ball in Canada was a short lived affair. Handloads were allowed in about 1994.

Just prior to this time the AR's were gaining great strength in the U.S. The military finally got involved. The rest is history.

You might ask how the the 62 grain 5.56 ball worked for Canadian LR prone shooting to 1,000 yds? It was supersonic in barrels of 28", and longer. It also was very competitive with the 147 grain 7.62 ball in use there at the time. The wind drift differential at long range (7.62/5.56) was about 15% in favor of the 7.62.

Those days were very interesting."
Link Posted: 7/21/2017 11:28:33 AM EDT
[#8]
My latest build has a Wylde Chamber.  It was what was available in the style I wanted at the price I wanted to pay.  It works well and shoots well.
Link Posted: 8/2/2017 10:41:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Id go with whatever your barrel is chambered in thats the correct length, gas system, profile, material and price for what you want. Ie, the chamber is last on my priority list for a barrel.
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wylde holds the bullet tighter in the chamber so it is slightly more accurate compaired to a 5.56
View Quote
Sort of.   Chamber is the same as 5.56 for the full length of the cartridge.  Only the throat is tighter.  

This reduces possible yaw of the bullet as it makes the jump to the rifling.  Any improvement in accuracy will not be measurable unless the barrel is match grade and match grade ammo is used.  A Wylde chambered barrel will not make M855, M193, or bulk FMJ ammo shoot better groups, even if the barrel is of the finest match grade.

Nor will a Wylde chambered barrel improve accuracy, even with match ammo, unless the barrel is otherwise match grade in straightness of bore and quality of rifling.   Putting a Wilde chamber on an regular production barrel is marketing hype - merely lipstick on a pig.

My Lilja Wylde chambered match barreled precision rifle shoots 1/2 MOA with my Berger match bullet, benchrest prepped handloads.  But it shoots M855 and bulk ammo no better than my regular 5.56 chambered gov't profile carbine with a standard production grade barrel.  Nor should it.  The bulk FMJ ammo is not good enough.
Link Posted: 8/4/2017 12:40:28 AM EDT
[#11]
The Wylde chamber is not magic but it does aid accuracy as bullets that start down the bore straight travel down the bore straight.

Form Bill Wyldes post  "The initial reamer (designed in 1984) was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes. This operation was slow in getting off the ground, and really didn't start happening until about 1990."
Link Posted: 8/4/2017 8:24:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The Wylde chamber is not magic but it does aid accuracy as bullets that start down the bore straight travel down the bore straight.

Form Bill Wyldes post  "The initial reamer (designed in 1984) was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes. This operation was slow in getting off the ground, and really didn't start happening until about 1990."
View Quote
Only matters if the barrel is drilled to match grade straightness, is rifled with high precision and appropriate twist for the bullet, is finished to match grade level (typically hand lapped), that the bullet is match grade, is not out of balance, powder charges and case prep are precisely controlled and uniform shot to shot.  Unless everything is optimized that affects bullet flight once the bullet touches the rifling, and while in flight,  tightening the throat by .001" will not matter.  

Production barrels and non-match ammo will not see accuracy improvement with a Wylde chamber.  A Krieger, Lilja, Bartlein, Shilen or other true match barrel of benchrest quality shooting match grade ammo probably will see improved accuracy from a Wylde chamber.
Link Posted: 8/4/2017 11:07:26 PM EDT
[#13]
What's your source of that information ?

 Are you trying to tell us that starting bullets down a bore off axis has no negative effects or do you just not like Wylde chambers ?
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 7:14:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Oh I think his point is a cheap Wylde barrel offers no significant improvements over the 5.56 barrel of same quality but you may see a difference bwtn the two if one up's the quality level.  Couple that with shooting cheap ammo, one will still likely see cheap ammo style of groups regardless of barrel quality level.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 1:14:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Most AR15 shooters are aware that factory ball ammo is not that great in the accuracy department. They are also aware that Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo is made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally expect it to have less dispersion than ball.

In regards to Wylde chambers most AR shooters are not expecting F class bench rest records from AR15's assembled from production parts shooting production ammo.

Rather they are looking to give the ammo they are shooting its best chance to group as good as practical when they do their part.

Military ball ammo has bullet run out, sometime a lot, measurable at the tip.
Bill Wylde obviously saw no reason to further handicap that ammo (or his scores) by starting the (crooked) bullets out crooked by launching them in a freebore a few thousandths larger.







 What logical reason is there to not start bullets straight when it's easy to do so ?

Edit: Reminder that reamers finish holes out slightly larger than the the reamer itself.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 5:49:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Most AR15 shooters are aware that factory ball ammo is not that great in the accuracy department. They are also aware that Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo is made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally expect it to have less dispersion than ball.

In regards to Wylde chambers most AR shooters are not expecting F class bench rest records from AR15's assembled from production parts shooting production ammo.

Rather they are looking to give the ammo they are shooting its best chance to group as good as practical when they do their part.

Military ball ammo has bullet run out, sometime a lot, measurable at the tip.
Bill Wylde obviously saw no reason to further handicap that ammo (or his scores) by starting the (crooked) bullets out crooked by launching them in a freebore a few thousandths larger.


https://s15-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https:%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F5a%2Fb9%2Fbd%2F5ab9bdf165c0d4899­85d9530acfe7509--nato-tools.jpg&sp=f9e96864c6b55a60a3a1e6339e0bc230

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Flabscdn2.luckygunner.com%2Flabs%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FREAMER6.png&sp=1e92bbdeba0a47cde553a5cf6733546d


 What logical reason is there to not start bullets straight when it's easy to do so ?

Edit: Reminder that reamers finish holes out slightly larger than the the reamer itself.
View Quote
Because the tighter chamber throat has not been shown to improve accuracy with mil spec type mass production or bulk ammo or in production barrels with no extra attention to barrel bore straightness or precision rifling that is uniform to within about .0002" over the entire length.

You can put an aerodynamic race car rear wing to improve downforce on a stock Ford Fiesta, but it will not run faster or handle better.

Wylde chamber a Kreiger, Bartlein, Lilja or other match grade barrel, use custom match ammo, and then it matters.

That rear wing matters on a Ferrari or Lamborghini because those cars can perform well enough for the aero effects to actually work.
Link Posted: 8/18/2017 11:32:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Because the tighter chamber throat has not been shown to improve accuracy with mil spec type mass production or bulk ammo or in production barrels with no extra attention to barrel bore straightness or precision rifling that is uniform to within about .0002" over the entire length.

You can put an aerodynamic race car rear wing to improve downforce on a stock Ford Fiesta, but it will not run faster or handle better.

Wylde chamber a Kreiger, Bartlein, Lilja or other match grade barrel, use custom match ammo, and then it matters.

That rear wing matters on a Ferrari or Lamborghini because those cars can perform well enough for the aero effects to actually work.
View Quote
Are you saying the Daytona wing on my Fiesta doesn't work???? Even with a racing stripe and goofy little 12" wide wheels? The weed-whacker muffler makes it go faster though, right?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 1:52:01 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
Because the tighter chamber throat has not been shown to improve accuracy with mil spec type mass production or bulk ammo or in production barrels with no extra attention to barrel bore straightness or precision rifling that is uniform to within about .0002" over the entire length.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most AR15 shooters are aware that factory ball ammo is not that great in the accuracy department. They are also aware that Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo is made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally expect it to have less dispersion than ball.

In regards to Wylde chambers most AR shooters are not expecting F class bench rest records from AR15's assembled from production parts shooting production ammo.

Rather they are looking to give the ammo they are shooting its best chance to group as good as practical when they do their part.

Military ball ammo has bullet run out, sometime a lot, measurable at the tip.
Bill Wylde obviously saw no reason to further handicap that ammo (or his scores) by starting the (crooked) bullets out crooked by launching them in a freebore a few thousandths larger.


https://s15-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https:%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F5a%2Fb9%2Fbd%2F5ab9bdf165c0d4899­85d9530acfe7509--nato-tools.jpg&sp=f9e96864c6b55a60a3a1e6339e0bc230

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Flabscdn2.luckygunner.com%2Flabs%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FREAMER6.png&sp=1e92bbdeba0a47cde553a5cf6733546d


 What logical reason is there to not start bullets straight when it's easy to do so ?

Edit: Reminder that reamers finish holes out slightly larger than the the reamer itself.
Because the tighter chamber throat has not been shown to improve accuracy with mil spec type mass production or bulk ammo or in production barrels with no extra attention to barrel bore straightness or precision rifling that is uniform to within about .0002" over the entire length.
Do you have the source of the study ?
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 9:07:27 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
Do you have the source of the study ?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most AR15 shooters are aware that factory ball ammo is not that great in the accuracy department. They are also aware that Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo is made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally expect it to have less dispersion than ball.

In regards to Wylde chambers most AR shooters are not expecting F class bench rest records from AR15's assembled from production parts shooting production ammo.

Rather they are looking to give the ammo they are shooting its best chance to group as good as practical when they do their part.

Military ball ammo has bullet run out, sometime a lot, measurable at the tip.
Bill Wylde obviously saw no reason to further handicap that ammo (or his scores) by starting the (crooked) bullets out crooked by launching them in a freebore a few thousandths larger.


https://s15-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https:%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F5a%2Fb9%2Fbd%2F5ab9bdf165c0d4899­85d9530acfe7509--nato-tools.jpg&sp=f9e96864c6b55a60a3a1e6339e0bc230

https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Flabscdn2.luckygunner.com%2Flabs%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FREAMER6.png&sp=1e92bbdeba0a47cde553a5cf6733546d


 What logical reason is there to not start bullets straight when it's easy to do so ?

Edit: Reminder that reamers finish holes out slightly larger than the the reamer itself.
Because the tighter chamber throat has not been shown to improve accuracy with mil spec type mass production or bulk ammo or in production barrels with no extra attention to barrel bore straightness or precision rifling that is uniform to within about .0002" over the entire length.
Do you have the source of the study ?
Me and hundreds of others who have tried.  Shooting bulk ammo and M193 and M855 ammo from my own precision Lilja match barrel which is Wylde chambered, 1:8, air gauged and true and straight bore and rifling to .0002" from throat to muzzle.  It shoots under 1/2 MOA with match ammo and my match handloads (Berger bullets in Lapua Match cases).  It shoots the bulk and M193 and M855 with the same crappy 2 to 2.5 MOA groups as my mil spec carbine rifle.  This anectdotal experience is posted all over this board by many users who have tried to shoot bulk or ordinary NATO mil spec ammo.  The data is everywhere and is consistent. There is a reason Mk262 ammo was developed.  

Starting out straight an already out of balance bullet that also has bullet tip runout, has bullet-to-bullet weight variation,  loaded indifferently in non match cases of differing capacity,  with powders dispensed with bulk loading equipment, fired through a chrome lined barrel or one not extremely straight and air gauged to confirm uniformity will not improve accuracy.

The variables that affect the bullet from the moment it enters the rifling must be first eliminated or reduced as much as possible
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:14:47 PM EDT
[#20]
You're getting warmer but you have neglected Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo as mentioned in post#16. Those are made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally give less dispersion.


The next step is to test those then ream your chambers to NATO freebore and repeat all the tests.

Compare the before and after results and report your findings.


My hunch is that if done truly objectively you will come to the conclusion(s) that:
a. If the lot of ball ammo was decent it shot better through a Wylde chamber that it did through an identical barrel with NATO freebore.

b. That production Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo (as mentioned in post#16) tends to shoot tighter than ball and tighter yet when the bullets are started straight compared to when started crooked.

c. a Wylde chamber in a rack grade rifle hurts nothing while helping production Varmint, Hunting, Match, Defensive and hand loaded ammo group tighter than it did in chambers with NATO freebore.

c. maybe Bill Wylde knew what he was doing after all.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 8:15:31 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You're getting warmer but you have neglected Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo as mentioned in post#16. Those are made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally give less dispersion.


The next step is to test those then ream your chambers to NATO freebore and repeat all the tests.

Compare the before and after results and report your findings.


My hunch is that if done truly objectively you will come to the conclusion(s) that:
a. If the lot of ball ammo was decent it shot better through a Wylde chamber that it did through an identical barrel with NATO freebore.

b. That production Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo (as mentioned in post#16) tends to shoot tighter than ball and tighter yet when the bullets are started straight compared to when started crooked.

c. a Wylde chamber in a rack grade rifle hurts nothing while helping production Varmint, Hunting, Match, Defensive and hand loaded ammo group tighter than it did in chambers with NATO freebore.

c. maybe Bill Wylde knew what he was doing after all.
View Quote
Your point (c) is not supported factually.  It is mere theory.  I have tried defensive ammo (Speer Gold Dot 64, Barnes TSX 62, also both excellent for hunting), and Varmint ammo (Hornady Superformance), among others. Those are ones that come to mind.  Indeed, the groups are tighter in production NATO chambered barrels than bulk ammo or M193/885, typically around 1.1 to 1.5 MOA, but are also the same size when fired from the Lilja with Wylde chamber and a lot of other accuracy details and attention.  

However, it is only with match ammo that the Wylde chamber seems to add anything, and that is in combo with the high precision and quality control of a match barrel. Match ammo runs sub MOA in the Lilja (sub 1/2 MOA when I do my part).  That match ammo hits a wall in the mil spec barrels at the same 1.1 to 1.5 MOA level in the mil spec production barrels as with the better production ammo.

My conclusion is that if the Wylde chamber is starting those bullets out straighter, bullet design and production loading variations result in a hard limit of about 1.1-1.5 MOA even with improved chamber throat and match barrel.  The limit is the ammo in that instance.  Similarly, shooting match ammo in mil spec barrels is limited by the chrome lining, lack of super precision in drilling the bore, lack of precision and uniformity in rifling and in finish.  Those are 1.1-1.5 MOA barrels at best.

What I have not done is compare these results to a Wylde chambered but otherwise production barrel shooting the same ammo.  But the data I have strongly suggests that if such non match but better quality ammo shot the same 1.1-1.5 MOA groups in the Wylde chambered match Lilja barrel as in the production barrels, then merely adding a Wyle chamber to a production barrel will not change its accuracy, which remains limited by other production variables.  Those variables are meaningfully reduced by the other steps that differentiate a match barrel from production barrels.  And adding those important features does not meaningfully improve accuracy until you shoot match grade ammo in that match barrel.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 5:59:38 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
For a Precision based rifle it may make sense. I wouldn't pick a lower end barrel in Wylde though. The rest of the barrel has to be manufactured to the correct tolerances fit it to matter as far as accuracy guess. Take a look at the new Faxon match grade 223 Wylde barrels. They are stainless with qpq coating and have np3 barrel extension. Right to bear has the Gunner version in stock on sale with free shipping. Faxon gets very good feedback and they are a good value
View Quote
Faxon makes great barrels.  I own a 16" Flame Fluted 5.56 which makes awesome groups.  I just want to watch the Hogs drop once it cools off here down south.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 8:35:47 PM EDT
[#23]
What I'm gathering from this thread is that a Wylde chamber doesn't hurt a thing in a non-match barrel, and helps get the most from a match barrel. Are there any reliability or feeding issues being noted with using mil-spec ammo in Wylde chambers? If not, then I guess a rack-grade barrel with a Wylde chamber wouldn't be anything to run away from.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 10:43:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What I'm gathering from this thread is that a Wylde chamber doesn't hurt a thing in a non-match barrel, and helps get the most from a match barrel. Are there any reliability or feeding issues being noted with using mil-spec ammo in Wylde chambers? If not, then I guess a rack-grade barrel with a Wylde chamber wouldn't be anything to run away from.
View Quote
Unless you don't mind cleaning more often or risk earlier stoppage. You are likely to need to clean a Wylde chambered productions barrel more frequently in the throat area just before the rifling, especially copper fouling build up. That may lead eventually to difficult extraction of chambered but unfired cartridges.

Stainless match barrels, properly broken in, have the throats polished during break in and get very little copper build up and clean easier.  A Wylde chambered barrel that is nitrided cannot effectively have the throat polished by break in, as the surface is too hard.  You end up with no improved accuracy but more frequent cleaning on a Wylde chambered production barrel.  If the barrel is stainless, at least you have a chance to polish the tighter throat during break in, but an otherwise indifferently made production barrel will see no improvement in accuracy from the Wylde chamber.

If mud or dirt or sand gets into the tighter throat, you will get a stoppage sooner.  There's a reason the military stays with the NATO chamber except for match rifles.  My precision build has a match grade custom stainless barrel with Wylde chamber.  My HD and SHTF rifle will always have a 5.56 NATO chamber.  If there were no down side to Wylde, it would be mil spec.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 2:32:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your point (c) is not supported factually.  It is mere theory.  I have tried defensive ammo (Speer Gold Dot 64, Barnes TSX 62, also both excellent for hunting), and Varmint ammo (Hornady Superformance), among others. Those are ones that come to mind.  Indeed, the groups are tighter in production NATO chambered barrels than bulk ammo or M193/885, typically around 1.1 to 1.5 MOA, but are also the same size when fired from the Lilja with Wylde chamber and a lot of other accuracy details and attention.  

However, it is only with match ammo that the Wylde chamber seems to add anything, and that is in combo with the high precision and quality control of a match barrel. Match ammo runs sub MOA in the Lilja (sub 1/2 MOA when I do my part).  That match ammo hits a wall in the mil spec barrels at the same 1.1 to 1.5 MOA level in the mil spec production barrels as with the better production ammo.

My conclusion is that if the Wylde chamber is starting those bullets out straighter, bullet design and production loading variations result in a hard limit of about 1.1-1.5 MOA even with improved chamber throat and match barrel.  The limit is the ammo in that instance.  Similarly, shooting match ammo in mil spec barrels is limited by the chrome lining, lack of super precision in drilling the bore, lack of precision and uniformity in rifling and in finish.  Those are 1.1-1.5 MOA barrels at best.

What I have not done is compare these results to a Wylde chambered but otherwise production barrel shooting the same ammo.  But the data I have strongly suggests that if such non match but better quality ammo shot the same 1.1-1.5 MOA groups in the Wylde chambered match Lilja barrel as in the production barrels, then merely adding a Wyle chamber to a production barrel will not change its accuracy, which remains limited by other production variables.  Those variables are meaningfully reduced by the other steps that differentiate a match barrel from production barrels.  And adding those important features does not meaningfully improve accuracy until you shoot match grade ammo in that match barrel.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You're getting warmer but you have neglected Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo as mentioned in post#16. Those are made to tighter tolerances than ball ammo and generally give less dispersion.


The next step is to test those then ream your chambers to NATO freebore and repeat all the tests.

Compare the before and after results and report your findings.


My hunch is that if done truly objectively you will come to the conclusion(s) that:
a. If the lot of ball ammo was decent it shot better through a Wylde chamber that it did through an identical barrel with NATO freebore.

b. That production Varmint, Hunting, Match and Defensive ammo (as mentioned in post#16) tends to shoot tighter than ball and tighter yet when the bullets are started straight compared to when started crooked.

c. a Wylde chamber in a rack grade rifle hurts nothing while helping production Varmint, Hunting, Match, Defensive and hand loaded ammo group tighter than it did in chambers with NATO freebore.

c. maybe Bill Wylde knew what he was doing after all.
Your point (c) is not supported factually.  It is mere theory.  I have tried defensive ammo (Speer Gold Dot 64, Barnes TSX 62, also both excellent for hunting), and Varmint ammo (Hornady Superformance), among others. Those are ones that come to mind.  Indeed, the groups are tighter in production NATO chambered barrels than bulk ammo or M193/885, typically around 1.1 to 1.5 MOA, but are also the same size when fired from the Lilja with Wylde chamber and a lot of other accuracy details and attention.  

However, it is only with match ammo that the Wylde chamber seems to add anything, and that is in combo with the high precision and quality control of a match barrel. Match ammo runs sub MOA in the Lilja (sub 1/2 MOA when I do my part).  That match ammo hits a wall in the mil spec barrels at the same 1.1 to 1.5 MOA level in the mil spec production barrels as with the better production ammo.

My conclusion is that if the Wylde chamber is starting those bullets out straighter, bullet design and production loading variations result in a hard limit of about 1.1-1.5 MOA even with improved chamber throat and match barrel.  The limit is the ammo in that instance.  Similarly, shooting match ammo in mil spec barrels is limited by the chrome lining, lack of super precision in drilling the bore, lack of precision and uniformity in rifling and in finish.  Those are 1.1-1.5 MOA barrels at best.

What I have not done is compare these results to a Wylde chambered but otherwise production barrel shooting the same ammo.  But the data I have strongly suggests that if such non match but better quality ammo shot the same 1.1-1.5 MOA groups in the Wylde chambered match Lilja barrel as in the production barrels, then merely adding a Wyle chamber to a production barrel will not change its accuracy, which remains limited by other production variables.  Those variables are meaningfully reduced by the other steps that differentiate a match barrel from production barrels.  And adding those important features does not meaningfully improve accuracy until you shoot match grade ammo in that match barrel.
"Your point (c) is not supported factually."

Lollz. Realy ?
Go look look him up, his standings. Work your way up to shooting on his level then report back to us.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 2:58:29 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Unless you don't mind cleaning more often or risk earlier stoppage. You are likely to need to clean a Wylde chambered productions barrel more frequently in the throat area just before the rifling, especially copper fouling build up. That may lead eventually to difficult extraction of chambered but unfired cartridges.

Stainless match barrels, properly broken in, have the throats polished during break in and get very little copper build up and clean easier.  A Wylde chambered barrel that is nitrided cannot effectively have the throat polished by break in, as the surface is too hard.  You end up with no improved accuracy but more frequent cleaning on a Wylde chambered production barrel.  If the barrel is stainless, at least you have a chance to polish the tighter throat during break in, but an otherwise indifferently made production barrel will see no improvement in accuracy from the Wylde chamber.

If mud or dirt or sand gets into the tighter throat, .  There's a reason the military stays with the NATO chamber except for match rifles.  My precision build has a match grade custom stainless barrel with Wylde chamber.  My HD and SHTF rifle will always have a 5.56 NATO chamber.  If there were no down side to Wylde, it would be mil spec.
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What I'm gathering from this thread is that a Wylde chamber doesn't hurt a thing in a non-match barrel, and helps get the most from a match barrel. Are there any reliability or feeding issues being noted with using mil-spec ammo in Wylde chambers? If not, then I guess a rack-grade barrel with a Wylde chamber wouldn't be anything to run away from.
Unless you don't mind cleaning more often or risk earlier stoppage. You are likely to need to clean a Wylde chambered productions barrel more frequently in the throat area just before the rifling, especially copper fouling build up. That may lead eventually to difficult extraction of chambered but unfired cartridges.

Stainless match barrels, properly broken in, have the throats polished during break in and get very little copper build up and clean easier.  A Wylde chambered barrel that is nitrided cannot effectively have the throat polished by break in, as the surface is too hard.  You end up with no improved accuracy but more frequent cleaning on a Wylde chambered production barrel.  If the barrel is stainless, at least you have a chance to polish the tighter throat during break in, but an otherwise indifferently made production barrel will see no improvement in accuracy from the Wylde chamber.

If mud or dirt or sand gets into the tighter throat, .  There's a reason the military stays with the NATO chamber except for match rifles.  My precision build has a match grade custom stainless barrel with Wylde chamber.  My HD and SHTF rifle will always have a 5.56 NATO chamber.  If there were no down side to Wylde, it would be mil spec.
If changing millspec was easier than say influencing a bureaucracy Wylde probably would be spec.  

And I'm calling B.S. on "you will get a stoppage sooner".  

How many NATO vs Wylde stoppage tests have you done ? If not you then who ? How many Wyldes have you run to stoppage ?

The inertia of the BCG going forward is more than enough force to push forward any debris in the neck by the bullet entering therein.  
Debris in the shoulder of the chamber is a different matter. Since the Wylde chamber is NATO spec in neck, shoulder and body any debris stoppages there can not be a free bore issue.

It looks like irrational fears and fear mongering on the Wylde chamber are showing up in this thread the same as they did on chrome bore and chambers in the chrome vs melonite thread. Get a grip.
Link Posted: 9/5/2017 3:03:03 AM EDT
[#27]
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If there were no down side to Wylde, it would be mil spec.
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1) I thought the Wilde chamber was introduced decades after the 5.56 was put into service. You make it sound like they picked one over the other.

2) The military is currently using the Wylde chamber (and midlength gas) on their Recce type carbines.

It kinda sounds to me like you're being a barrel snob. If a Wylde chamber will improve accuracy on a match barrel, then I don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial on a production barrel. Many production barrels today are nitride, so they are inherently a tad more accurate than chrome lined, and with a Wylde chamber I consider it a poor man's version of a match barrel.

If your argument was that using a match 5.56 barrel is going to give you more accuracy than a Wylde chamber in regular barrel then I'd agree. But that is not what you said, you say Wylde will only help on a accurized barrel, and I cant grasp the logic.
Link Posted: 9/6/2017 8:26:20 PM EDT
[#28]
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1) I thought the Wilde chamber was introduced decades after the 5.56 was put into service. You make it sound like they picked one over the other.

2) The military is currently using the Wylde chamber (and midlength gas) on their Recce type carbines.

It kinda sounds to me like you're being a barrel snob. If a Wylde chamber will improve accuracy on a match barrel, then I don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial on a production barrel. Many production barrels today are nitride, so they are inherently a tad more accurate than chrome lined, and with a Wylde chamber I consider it a poor man's version of a match barrel.

If your argument was that using a match 5.56 barrel is going to give you more accuracy than a Wylde chamber in regular barrel then I'd agree. But that is not what you said, you say Wylde will only help on a accurized barrel, and I cant grasp the logic.
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The logic is the empirical evidence.  I've tried it.  Many others have as well and reported the results.  The difference in the chamber throat is very small.  For this to be meaningful, you must identify and address numerous other variables that have a far greater effect on accuracy.  Unless the barrel is match grade and the ammo match grade, the tighter chamber throat is not going to improve accuracy.

I'm no barrel snob.  I have many rifles and many different chamber, throat, barrel material and twist combinations.  I only report what I observe, what makes sense.  It costs a barrel maker no more money to use a Wylde reamer.  It does cost to do it right, though, and that involves a lot more than swapping reamers on the production line.

Indeed, the Wylde chamber has been in mil service on Recce type carbines.   I have such a Recce barrel.  Not sure those mil Recce barrels are midlength, though.  Could be mistaken.  Not relevant here.  Those Wylde chambered military barrels are match grade stainless steel, heavier profile, usually 1:8 twist, typically hand-lapped, and sourced from companies with known reputations for making competition grade barrels.  The chamber contributes to accuracy only because the rest of the barrel has been optimized to permit the tighter throat to be beneficial.

Indeed, my nitride NATO chambered CMMG barrel in my HD rifle is probably more accurate than many chrome lined barrels, when used with good ammo.   But, it is not a match barrel, and maxes out, even with match ammo at about 1.1 MOA.

The point I make is that the indifference to precision in production barrels, even nitride treated ones, produces greater accuracy robbing variations than the benefit from simply using a Wylde chamber reamer.  Your are also assuming that production barrel runs use perfect reamers to make those Wyle chambers, and are replacing the reamer as soon as it wears sufficiently to degrade accuracy.  Worn reamers or reamers that were not precision quality in the first instance, are not going to size the chamber correctly.  And, they must be used with care by skilled operators not concerned about production quotas.  Calling it a "Wylde" chamber may not mean that it actually is unless the quality control commonly used in making match barrels is applied to production barrel making. That takes time and money, greater quality control, and higher final product rejection rates.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 2:07:17 AM EDT
[#29]
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The logic is the empirical evidence. ~

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Quoted for posterity.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 3:00:20 AM EDT
[#30]
There are a good deal of barrels out there that are advertised as 5.56 chambered but are very much Wylde chambered. Just sayin.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 10:28:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Deleted.
Link Posted: 9/9/2017 11:20:58 PM EDT
[#32]
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Wylde holds the bullet tighter in the chamber so it is slightly more accurate compaired to a 5.56
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