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Posted: 6/8/2014 9:02:40 PM EST
Yesterday I tried the Black Hills blue box 75 grain .223 and the Remington Gold Match (I think) in 77 grain through my 14.5 1/9 barrel to see if it would stabilize. I shot five rounds out to 100 yrds and none keyholed. Is this far enough to know if it'll work? Or do I have to try it out further?

Also, since I read that it isn't the weight but the length of bullet would a 75+ TSX work too? I can't find any in my area to try it out and when I did find some it was pretty expensive for just one box that may or may not work.
Link Posted: 6/8/2014 9:04:51 PM EST
Every gun is different some 1/9's run great with 75's and 77's some don't. You'll have to buy the ammo to try it out. I would try it out to whatever distance you would expect to shoot at but you would be able to see keyholing at 100yds.
Link Posted: 6/8/2014 9:28:33 PM EST
That's good to know. I hoped that 100yrds was enough to know whether my barrel could handle it or not.
Link Posted: 6/8/2014 9:55:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TUAEITS:
......... but you would be able to see keyholing at 100yds.
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That is simply not accurate

I've had not obvious keyholing. I had to take a real close look, but the bullets were leaving out-of-round holes at 100 yards. Using a 16" 1/9 twist with 75 grain ppu.

Bullets were not going sideways, but they were not leaving the nice clean circular holes that you normally get.
Link Posted: 6/8/2014 10:38:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By thebufenator:


That is simply not accurate

I've had not obvious keyholing. I had to take a real close look, but the bullets were leaving out-of-round holes at 100 yards. Using a 16" 1/9 twist with 75 grain ppu.

Bullets were not going sideways, but they were not leaving the nice clean circular holes that you normally get.
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Originally Posted By thebufenator:
Originally Posted By TUAEITS:
......... but you would be able to see keyholing at 100yds.


That is simply not accurate

I've had not obvious keyholing. I had to take a real close look, but the bullets were leaving out-of-round holes at 100 yards. Using a 16" 1/9 twist with 75 grain ppu.

Bullets were not going sideways, but they were not leaving the nice clean circular holes that you normally get.


So I do have to try further? The longest I can is 200 yrds at my range. Not trying for accuracy, just because I would like some heavy OTM bullets for self defense.
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 1:35:43 AM EST
try it out at 500 m
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 4:52:34 AM EST
5.56 goes through different stages of stability through its flight path


Link Posted: 6/9/2014 4:56:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 6:16:56 AM EST
" 62gr is the heaviest that a 1/9 will stabilize."

YMMV. My 1:9 20" HBAR "stabilizes" 75gr out to 600yds just fine. Maybe the extra 4" helps.

Link Posted: 6/9/2014 6:31:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By thebufenator:


That is simply not accurate

I've had not obvious keyholing. I had to take a real close look, but the bullets were leaving out-of-round holes at 100 yards. Using a 16" 1/9 twist with 75 grain ppu.

Bullets were not going sideways, but they were not leaving the nice clean circular holes that you normally get.
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Originally Posted By thebufenator:
Originally Posted By TUAEITS:
......... but you would be able to see keyholing at 100yds.


That is simply not accurate

I've had not obvious keyholing. I had to take a real close look, but the bullets were leaving out-of-round holes at 100 yards. Using a 16" 1/9 twist with 75 grain ppu.

Bullets were not going sideways, but they were not leaving the nice clean circular holes that you normally get.

I never said obvious I said that you would be able to see it. But you're right that it wouldn't always be hitting perfectly sideways and it wouldn't always be easy to see.
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 6:39:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 7:04:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2014 7:06:58 AM EST by JayC]
Originally Posted By Spagehttie:
Yesterday I tried the Black Hills blue box 75 grain .223 and the Remington Gold Match (I think) in 77 grain through my 14.5 1/9 barrel to see if it would stabilize. I shot five rounds out to 100 yrds and none keyholed. Is this far enough to know if it'll work? Or do I have to try it out further?

Also, since I read that it isn't the weight but the length of bullet would a 75+ TSX work too? I can't find any in my area to try it out and when I did find some it was pretty expensive for just one box that may or may not work.
View Quote


The bullets will destabilize at some distance (as will ALL bullet weights, eventually). Shoot your maximum distance and if all is still good, all is still good.

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/barrel-twist-in-the-ar-15/
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 7:14:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2014 7:16:29 AM EST by MS556]
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Originally Posted By Eric802:


Read what I wrote, if you're quoting me. I was talking about the TSX. If you're stabilizing a 75gr TSX with a 1/9 barrel, you're working a couple miracles.
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Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By ricomnc:.
" 62gr is the heaviest that a 1/9 will stabilize."

YMMV. My 1:9 20" HBAR "stabilizes" 75gr out to 600yds just fine. Maybe the extra 4" helps.



Read what I wrote, if you're quoting me. I was talking about the TSX. If you're stabilizing a 75gr TSX with a 1/9 barrel, you're working a couple miracles.


^ ^ ^ This. I reload for a 1-9 twist 5.56. While all barrels are different, the TXS solid copper bullets are MUCH longer. Yes, I can stabilize lead core 75 grain bullets (not best accuracy, but not bad either), but the 5 grain lighter but MUCH longer 70 grain TSX (there are no 75 grain TSX) keyhole dramatically, spraying wildly all over the target at 100 yards. This is a barrel that prefers 55-62 grain lead core jacketed bullets shooting good match ammo or handloads to one MOA,. But, it shoots up to 70 grain lead core bullets very well just under 2 MOA and starts to degrade at 75 grain lead core, at about 2.5 MOA. It can shoot 62 grain TSX at acceptable accuracy (just under 2 MOA, because they are very well made otherwise. But 70 grain TSX . . . forget it.

Remember that it is not the weight, per se, that is the issue, it is the length of the bullet that comes into contact with the rifling. Lead is heavier than copper, so the bullets of same weight have less of their length in contact with the rifling, and stabilize better at slower twist.
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 10:54:36 PM EST
Thanks for all the replies. I am going to just try it out to 200 yrds (furthest at my range) just to see it does. This is also my hunting rifle so it'll be nice to know what I can expect.

Now I have to get my hands on some 62 TSX's.
Link Posted: 6/11/2014 1:53:09 PM EST
70 tsx would not work in my 1 in 9 rifle..
Link Posted: 6/12/2014 12:06:16 AM EST
My Savage 110 FP with a 1-in-9 twist barrel stabilised 80 gr VLDs just fine too. Of course they were too long to fit the magazine, but they were stable.
Link Posted: 6/13/2014 3:49:43 AM EST
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .
Link Posted: 6/15/2014 3:26:51 PM EST
A friend of mine shot a water bottle dead center at 600 yards with a MK262 Mod 1 load, using a 14.5 inch barrel with a permanent flash hider, 1 in 9 twist. The projectile hit dead center, and punched a perfect vertical outline
of a 77 grain Sierra Match King.
Link Posted: 6/16/2014 7:37:53 AM EST
At the price of ammo these days I think you could buy a 1/8 or 1/7 barrel for the cost of the ammo you are going to shoot and shoot to prove a point to your self. It is nice to have a 1/9 to rshoot 62gr bullets and even 69gr, mine doesn't like 69gr so I use the one it llike and am happy.

fknipfer1
Link Posted: 6/16/2014 2:14:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By fknipfer1:
At the price of ammo these days I think you could buy a 1/8 or 1/7 barrel for the cost of the ammo you are going to shoot and shoot to prove a point to your self. It is nice to have a 1/9 to rshoot 62gr bullets and even 69gr, mine doesn't like 69gr so I use the one it llike and am happy.

fknipfer1
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I bought what I thought was Black Hills 68gr but I made a mistake and it was 69gr. I have a 1/9" twist and I have fired .223 68gr match which works fine. I'll have to try the 69gr on my next range trip and see if they stabilize in my 1/9".
Link Posted: 6/16/2014 9:58:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By tschlemm:


I bought what I thought was Black Hills 68gr but I made a mistake and it was 69gr. I have a 1/9" twist and I have fired .223 68gr match which works fine. I'll have to try the 69gr on my next range trip and see if they stabilize in my 1/9".
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Originally Posted By tschlemm:
Originally Posted By fknipfer1:
At the price of ammo these days I think you could buy a 1/8 or 1/7 barrel for the cost of the ammo you are going to shoot and shoot to prove a point to your self. It is nice to have a 1/9 to rshoot 62gr bullets and even 69gr, mine doesn't like 69gr so I use the one it llike and am happy.

fknipfer1


I bought what I thought was Black Hills 68gr but I made a mistake and it was 69gr. I have a 1/9" twist and I have fired .223 68gr match which works fine. I'll have to try the 69gr on my next range trip and see if they stabilize in my 1/9".


I've been thinking in the past to buy another barrel in a faster twist but when I first got it it would not cycle steel at all. I have the gas port opened more and the chamber reamed to true 5.56 (there were a little bit of shavings on the reamer). Since then I never had a problem with any ammo and I like it like that.
Link Posted: 6/17/2014 7:42:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .
View Quote


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 9:11:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ewetstone:


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.
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Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:46:38 AM EST
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Originally Posted By colt100:


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.
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Originally Posted By colt100:
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.


This ^^^. I have a 1/8 Wylde that shoots everything I have tried from 55gn to 77gn.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:50:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 10:51:16 AM EST by Synyster06Gates]
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Originally Posted By colt100:


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.
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Originally Posted By colt100:
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.


No. There are many 1 in 9 barrels that like heavy loads just as there are many 1 in 7 that dislike 55gr. Each particular barrel is gonna be different. Plenty of 1 in 9s that eat 77gr and put it right where you aim.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 11:22:41 AM EST
Although it is a happy circumstance to discover my 20" HBAR will stabilize some of the heavier, longer loads, if I were to buy a rifle to exclusively shoot 70gr or heavier commercial mag length bullets I would get a 1:7 barrel.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 7:26:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:


No. There are many 1 in 9 barrels that like heavy loads just as there are many 1 in 7 that dislike 55gr. Each particular barrel is gonna be different. Plenty of 1 in 9s that eat 77gr and put it right where you aim.
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
Originally Posted By colt100:
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.


No. There are many 1 in 9 barrels that like heavy loads just as there are many 1 in 7 that dislike 55gr. Each particular barrel is gonna be different. Plenty of 1 in 9s that eat 77gr and put it right where you aim.


I've had several 1/9 twist rifles and know others who had 1/9 twists. None of them ever shot the 75-77 gr loads very accurately. Close enough maybe but 5+ inch groups at 100 were not uncommon.

I haven't had that much experience with 1/7 twists as the 1/9's but it seems that the 1/7 will stabilize 55 gr and up. Even if I had a 1/7 that didn't like 55 gr, I'd just use m855's for plinking ammo.

As most of the time people want to hunt or use their rifle for SD and many of the heavier loads are recommended for those uses, I'd think that the 1/7 should be more popular. Maybe most people just want to shoot 55 gr cheap ammo. IDK.

I guess it all comes down to each barrel. However, I'd rather have a barrel that likes the 75-77 gr loads and shoots the cheaper 55 gr's ok then the other way around. Most of the time if I'm shooting 55 gr's, it's for training or plinking so even 5 inch groups wouldn't be unacceptable at the closer ranges. If I shooting ammo that $1 a round, I want at least or near MOA performance out of it, unless it's a hunting bullet, but then I'd still want it to be close to MOA.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 11:09:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By colt100:


I've had several 1/9 twist rifles and know others who had 1/9 twists. None of them ever shot the 75-77 gr loads very accurately. Close enough maybe but 5+ inch groups at 100 were not uncommon.

I haven't had that much experience with 1/7 twists as the 1/9's but it seems that the 1/7 will stabilize 55 gr and up. Even if I had a 1/7 that didn't like 55 gr, I'd just use m855's for plinking ammo.

As most of the time people want to hunt or use their rifle for SD and many of the heavier loads are recommended for those uses, I'd think that the 1/7 should be more popular. Maybe most people just want to shoot 55 gr cheap ammo. IDK.

I guess it all comes down to each barrel. However, I'd rather have a barrel that likes the 75-77 gr loads and shoots the cheaper 55 gr's ok then the other way around. Most of the time if I'm shooting 55 gr's, it's for training or plinking so even 5 inch groups wouldn't be unacceptable at the closer ranges. If I shooting ammo that $1 a round, I want at least or near MOA performance out of it, unless it's a hunting bullet, but then I'd still want it to be close to MOA.
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Originally Posted By colt100:
Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
Originally Posted By colt100:
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Originally Posted By Alleninmt:
I recently purchased bulk 5.56 green tip 62 grain.
I have a bushmaster with a 24" barrel that gets good groups with the 62 grain at 100 yards
I have a spikes tactical with 16" barrel that is all over the place with the 62 grain at 100 yards
both rifles have a 1-9 twist
Will be trying the 55 gn in the spikes at next range trip. Hopefully it's not a barrel issue .


A 1/7 twist is what you want in that 16" Spikes to stabilize the 62 grain.


Never understood why 1/9's are so popular then people find that the might not be able to shoot some ammo. Unless you plan on shooting 55-62 gr ammo exclusively, I'd go with a 1/7. I have a 1/7 and 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/7 I just got shoots 55 gr very accurately and it shoot 77 gr very accurately. The 1/9 shoots 55 gr well but anything over 69 grs has less then stellar performance

If you think that you are going to shoot heavies, get the 1/7 or at least a 1/8.


No. There are many 1 in 9 barrels that like heavy loads just as there are many 1 in 7 that dislike 55gr. Each particular barrel is gonna be different. Plenty of 1 in 9s that eat 77gr and put it right where you aim.


I've had several 1/9 twist rifles and know others who had 1/9 twists. None of them ever shot the 75-77 gr loads very accurately. Close enough maybe but 5+ inch groups at 100 were not uncommon.

I haven't had that much experience with 1/7 twists as the 1/9's but it seems that the 1/7 will stabilize 55 gr and up. Even if I had a 1/7 that didn't like 55 gr, I'd just use m855's for plinking ammo.

As most of the time people want to hunt or use their rifle for SD and many of the heavier loads are recommended for those uses, I'd think that the 1/7 should be more popular. Maybe most people just want to shoot 55 gr cheap ammo. IDK.

I guess it all comes down to each barrel. However, I'd rather have a barrel that likes the 75-77 gr loads and shoots the cheaper 55 gr's ok then the other way around. Most of the time if I'm shooting 55 gr's, it's for training or plinking so even 5 inch groups wouldn't be unacceptable at the closer ranges. If I shooting ammo that $1 a round, I want at least or near MOA performance out of it, unless it's a hunting bullet, but then I'd still want it to be close to MOA.


AGAIN...Ideally you want a 1/8 Wylde barrel....most versatile of the bunch.
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