Fire department goof or good decision?

News Artical

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. --  A massive fire that engulfed an Orange County home with a garage filled with ammunition Tuesday night was accidentally sparked by the homeowner.

Homeowner Fred Schloetzer said he accidentally started the blaze inside his home located on Almark Drive near South Orange Blossom Trail Tuesday night when a spark from his welding iron landed on a gas can."

"I reached over to get the gas can a couple of times and the radiant heat was so great the second time, I just ran," homeowner Fred Schloetzer said.

Witnesses said when firefighters arrived, flames were covering the house.

Firefighters said the blaze was extinguished at Scholetzer's home in minutes even after bullets stored in the garage exploded.

"The booms were like a war zone," resident Zach Meyers said.

Schloetzer told Local 6's Erik von Ancken that he questions whether firefighters did enough to save his home.

"There was too much looking at each other and…(shrugs)," Schloetzer said.

"I'll speak for my guy and there was no delay," Orange County Fire Battallion Chief Reggie Price said. "We come into all of these calls in an offensive mind meaning we are going to go in, knock down the fire, put it out and save anybody inside."

Price said the ammunition changed the strategy of fighting the fire.

"When we had that amount of fire and the ammunition going off, we changed into defensive mode," Price said. "That meant we had to back up a little bit and reposition our lines."

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is investigating the incident.

I'd do the exact same thing.  Life safety is going to come first over property every time.  You'll find it difficult to get anyone in emergency services to express a different view.  If they do, they need to re-evaluate their priorities and take some time off.

E-95

Most house fires that I fight have ammo in them. Its normal in a rural area. The only thing that would concern me is welding tanks, cans of gas, and ammo stored in metal containers.

You also have to consider the building itself. If it is a newer building they are unsafe to enter if the fire had been burning even for short periods of time.

I'm a Arson Investigator on a regional Task Force that the ATF set up. If the dollar loss was high enough we would do the Investigation. It does not have to be a Federal case for our ATF to be there.

Quoted: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is investigating the incident.

Quoted: Quoted: Homeowner Fred Schloetzer said he accidentally started the blaze inside his home located on Almark Drive near South Orange Blossom Trail Tuesday night when a spark from his welding iron landed on a gas can." Welding iron? The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is investigating the incident. What the hell?!?  It's a HOUSE FIRE.  OMG, there were bullets!  Call the ATF!

ATF is quite common.  We have ATF show about half the time with our investigators....It gives the ATF some hands on training (every one has to start somewhere).  

Also, for the most part, turnout gear will protect you from the flying brass and shrapnel caused by burning ammo, but it sounds like the house may have been fully involved (or at least the garage) so a defensive posture would have been completely acceptable in that situation.

Have a fire extinguisher handy while doing anything with fire, such as welding.  Oh, and, make sure highly flamable stuff like gasoline is not near by either.  Use common sence....which is surprisingly not that common now days.

Good thing none of the FD people were hurt by it.  that would have been bad.  Though ammo cooking off in a fire is not as lethal as people think.

Quoted: Quoted: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is investigating the incident.

That's actually pretty standard in fire investigation, especially if it's a small department or they don't have a well staffed and/or well funded Fire Marshal's Office.  It's only the large departments around the country that have the funding to do internal lab analysis, etc.  We call ATF as an investigative resource all the time.

E-95

friend of mine had a .243 round in his pocket and we were standing next to a propane heater.  the twin burner kind that mounts ontop of the LP tank,


the round ended up going off in his pocket.
pants had a dark brownish discoloration in the bottom of the pocket.
slight singe on the skin.
he pulled the bullet and brass out of the pocket.

Quoted: friend of mine had a .243 round in his pocket and we were standing next to a propane heater.  the twin burner kind that mounts ontop of the LP tank, www.mrheater.com/Upload/Image/mh24twhite.jpg the round ended up going off in his pocket. pants had a dark brownish discoloration in the bottom of the pocket. slight singe on the skin. he pulled the bullet and brass out of the pocket.

"Nutt Brush"

Quoted: "Nutt Brush"

???


nevermind, I just got it....
sorry.
yeah it was a deeper pocket.
more like thigh brush.

Quoted: friend of mine had a .243 round in his pocket and we were standing next to a propane heater.  the twin burner kind that mounts ontop of the LP tank, www.mrheater.com/Upload/Image/mh24twhite.jpg the round ended up going off in his pocket. pants had a dark brownish discoloration in the bottom of the pocket. slight singe on the skin. he pulled the bullet and brass out of the pocket.

did you personally see this happen?  i would think the pants would have started on fire from the heat before the round would explode.  doesn't your friend have any feeling in his leg?  

I have never heard of a firefighter that was injured from a round of ammo cooking off in a fire.
Before I got promoted and actually went into houses that were on fire I would guess that a large percentage of the house fires I went on had ammo cooking off in them.
Not only have I never heard of anyone getting hurt, I never talked to or observed a firefighter that was the least bit concerned about it.

We used to get a department e-mail on a regular basis about firefighters killed in the line of duty complete with all the details. The idea was to provide a heads up, think safety type of thing. Never read one of the them where a firefighter was killed or injured from ammo cooking off.

I was on a house fire when my Captain was standing on the sidewalk in front of the house and got hit in the center of the chest by a bullet from a cooked off round. The bullet fell harmlessly to the ground.

I could be compeltely wrong about this and I hope that someone posts information from a credible source where a firefighter was injured in this manner if such a case actually exists.

Let me add that it would certainly be possible to be injured from a round cooking off  IF IT WAS CHAMBERED IN A GUN WHEN IT COOKED OFF. But normally in these discussions we are talking about stored, bulk, ammo. I remember reading an article years ago in the American Rifleman that discussed a fire in a gun store. Again. no one was injured by the ammo that cooked off.

Quoted: I have never heard of a firefighter that was injured from a round of ammo cooking off in a fire. Before I got promoted and actually went into houses that were on fire I would guess that a large percentage of the house fires I went on had ammo cooking off in them. Not only have I never heard of anyone getting hurt, I never talked to or observed a firefighter that was the least bit concerned about it. We used to get a department e-mail on a regular basis about firefighters killed in the line of duty complete with all the details. The idea was to provide a heads up, think safety type of thing. Never read one of the them where a firefighter was killed or injured from ammo cooking off. I was on a house fire when my Captain was standing on the sidewalk in front of the house and got hit in the center of the chest by a bullet from a cooked off round. The bullet fell harmlessly to the ground. I could be compeltely wrong about this and I hope that someone posts information from a credible source where a firefighter was injured in this manner if such a case actually exists. Let me add that it would certainly be possible to be injured from a round cooking off  IF IT WAS CHAMBERED IN A GUN WHEN IT COOKED OFF. But normally in these discussions we are talking about stored, bulk, ammo. I remember reading an article years ago in the American Rifleman that discussed a fire in a gun store. Again. no one was injured by the ammo that cooked off.

You are correct Sir!  

Hey 444.  S. Isa has a great video on this subject.....I believe Olin did the testing.  Drop test, burn test, sealed container....you name it.  Very informative.

Firefighters said the blaze was extinguished at Scholetzer's home in minutes even after bullets stored in the garage exploded

Must have been one hot fire to cause that. I've heard of cartridges exploding, but never just the bullets.

Quoted: did you personally see this happen?  i would think the pants would have started on fire from the heat before the round would explode.  doesn't your friend have any feeling in his leg?

yup, last fall.
hes fine.

Quoted: Most house fires that I fight have ammo in them. Its normal in a rural area. The only thing that would concern me is welding tanks, cans of gas, and ammo stored in metal containers. You also have to consider the building itself. If it is a newer building they are unsafe to enter if the fire had been burning even for short periods of time. I'm a Arson Investigator on a regional Task Force that the ATF set up. If the dollar loss was high enough we would do the Investigation. It does not have to be a Federal case for our ATF to be there.

What is the problem with ammo stored in metal containers? I'm guessing that many people have their ammo in metal lockers, ammo cans, etc.

I have seen some cans that the ammo popped off and clearly had enough energy to injure anyone close by if they were struck.

I have never seen any can that exploded other than ones that were intentionally done to destroy the ammo.

Ammo cans and light sheet metal lockers are generally made to flex and vent built up pressure before they become a big bomb from trying to hold the pressure in.

My south african 7.62x51 amo cans all have holes in the bottom and in the past I have seen pictures of some of the smaller USA military ammo cans that were in a fire and the sides flex and the gasses vent before the lid feels enough pressure to bust the hinge pins or latch on the front.

Other than that I keep an eye on what might become a huge pipe bomb if I store ammo in it and a fire happened and the ammo cooked off.


Anyway, that is my opinion on why the above comments were made.

Lately I have managed to keep up with ammo cans for my ammo and it makes moving it and storing it easier so that is a nice plus.