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Posted: 9/12/2004 7:30:36 PM EST
Is it legal to install a standard M4 buttstock buffer tube on an AR15 pistol, but not the stock itself, or do you have to install a pistol buffer? Now that the 50oz restriction is gone, I want to buy a receiver as a pistol lower and build an 11.5" pistol.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 7:35:52 PM EST
I don't think you can do this...I had thought of it too, however, the tube can be used as I stock...which is a no, no....I was bumbed too.. When I was told...
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 7:57:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 7:58:21 PM EST by Engineer]
The receiver extension from Model 1's "pre-ban" pistol kit extends from the receiver, although not as much as an M4 tube - or perhaps it wasn't designed to accept a buttstock. Interesting question though - definitely needs some clarification.


Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:23:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 9:42:44 PM EST
Here's something to think about: If I have a pistol, with the pistol buffer, and I stick a rubber crutch/cane protector over the end to "prevent damage if dropped" is that considered a stock in itself or mearly a device to prevent damage??
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 10:39:17 PM EST
Once you build a pistol, feel free to post an Image in this thread

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=200876

-Jason
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 11:21:31 PM EST
For those in slave states with copy of the fed ban. Who makes the lightest parts for building one? I dont want a swiss cheese AR lower to meet the weight limit.

S.O.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 12:48:12 AM EST

You know what is pretty sad?

Even an incredibly well informed group like the ARFCOM army still has difficulty figuring out modern gun laws. I am as confused by them at times as anyone, and I spend several hours a day on firearms boards like this one.



Link Posted: 9/13/2004 12:56:13 AM EST
As Troy stated earlier if there is a buttstock, or anything that would allow the pistol to be shoulder fired it would make it an short barreled rifle "SBR"

As far as making any kind of padd or rubber protector to go on it, your dancing on a razor blade here. Your risking having to defend yourself in court over a $200 tax stamp.... Whats a decent attorny cost by the hour these days???
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:19:31 PM EST
1) Notice the plug on the end. That would prevent it from being a stock

The pistol posted there IS legal.

2) Troy, do you have an ATF letter for the 'If it can accept a stock' part?

Plenty of pistols 'can accept' a stock. All the info I'd seen says it's only a SBR if a stock is attached or could be... The Pro-Ord/Bushmaster Carbon pistols did not have a 'block' on the end, btw, but rather used a normal sized buffer tube, IIRC....

Now, if your pistol fits a stock and you happen to have an extra telestock lying around, that would be bad news...

Obviously, a 20" stock requires a full length tube...

For the truly paranoid, an Oly OA93 upper or a
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:57:22 PM EST
This is the part about pistols I dont understand. You used to be able to put a stock on a M10, M11, Uzi's, glock, Colt 45. ETC Berreta just came out with the pistol that has a stock and carbine barrel for it. Again on the 45 autos, what about the carbine kits for those? What is the difference between them and putting a stock on a AR pistol? If your receiver is registered as a pistol I didnt think it really mattered the length of barrel are if you added a stock? That is pre 94. Now that the ban has gone, who knows. I've tried to research this but cant come up with anything for sure? ATF never answered my letter are emails? ANYBODY?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:42:01 PM EST
mototard,

You might want to research the U.S. vs. Thompson/Center Arms Company case. The supreme court dealt with that ambiguity specifically.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 6:36:34 AM EST
how about taking a belt sander to a CAR Buffer tube and removing the stops and rails that the stock rides on? Some BBQ paint later and you are good to go?

Also, what about cutting down a full size buffer tube to CAR length and putting a cap on it? Does anyone know if a steel cap from Home Depot would fit the tube? and if a tap would fit to cut the threads on the newly cut tube?

Finally, someone mentioned the stubby stock tube? You could always drill out the threads at the end for the stock screw with a drill...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 7:00:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheFNG:
As Troy stated earlier if there is a buttstock, or anything that would allow the pistol to be shoulder fired it would make it an short barreled rifle "SBR"

As far as making any kind of padd or rubber protector to go on it, your dancing on a razor blade here. Your risking having to defend yourself in court over a $200 tax stamp.... Whats a decent attorny cost by the hour these days???




LISTEN TO THIS GUY, he is correct
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:14:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 11:26:23 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By LonghornAR:
mototard,

You might want to research the U.S. vs. Thompson/Center Arms Company case. The supreme court dealt with that ambiguity specifically.



+1.... I don't believe that the standard is the abuility to add a stock! As mentioned above, there are LOTS of stocks that can be added to LOTS of pistols!!! The problem I would see with a car buffer tube is the fact that this tube could be placed against a shoulder making the weapon a RIFLE and hence a SBR! IMHO, this is the legal hurdle.

If the standard was the abuility to have a stock added to a pistol in a few minutes the a welder and a piece of scrap would remove that concern real quick as would other methods described above! The abuility of someone to use the buffer tube as a pogo sized butt stock is unquestionable however!

Following is a LEGAL OPPINION regarding the T/C Case... I was planning to write up a FAQ on this but I have just been too busy lately.... It is a VERY WORTHY READ!!!!

quarterbore.com/library/law/us_v_tc.pdf
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:35:56 PM EST
And once again, ask two ATFE agents, get two answers. My local ATFE agent told me that it is OK to use the carbine buffer tube to make a pistol so long as no stock is attached. The buffer tube, or receiver extension is not a stock. Try putting one on your shoulder, you nose is on the back of the receiver unless you have no neck at all. I have two pistols ready to build and this is what I am using, unless she comes back and reverses her previous statement. Since I don't have a pistol upper yet, still waiting, then it doesn't matter as all my barrels are over 16" and with the buffer tube and a barrel attached (if I were to assemble it that way), it would still be over 26" so there is no way anyone can claim it is an SBR currently. This was based on an e-mail I sent her and while saying what she did, then she wanted more information. I sent here complete info for her to review for a final answer, but right now as it stands, she said the carbine buffer tube should not pose a problem for a pistol build. I hope to get a more definite answer shortly, within the next day or two. We'll see. Good luck trying to get ANYTHING in writing from the ATFE. Over 24 letters sent during 2003 I didn't get that first answer. I did finally get a couple of e-mails, but never a response in writing on ATFE letterhead. I guess my e-mails and my dealer who acted as my go-between for many of my questions will have to suffice if I end up in court.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:31:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 2:35:14 PM EST by DOA]

Originally Posted By mototard:
This is the part about pistols I dont understand. You used to be able to put a stock on a M10, M11, Uzi's, glock, Colt 45. ETC Berreta just came out with the pistol that has a stock and carbine barrel for it. Again on the 45 autos, what about the carbine kits for those? What is the difference between them and putting a stock on a AR pistol? If your receiver is registered as a pistol I didnt think it really mattered the length of barrel are if you added a stock? That is pre 94. Now that the ban has gone, who knows. I've tried to research this but cant come up with anything for sure? ATF never answered my letter are emails? ANYBODY?



You CAN put a stock on all the guns you mentioned, BUT they also have a 16" barrel to go along with that stock. The 16" barrel is the only legal way to add a stock to a pistol, and not be considered a SBR.

As far as the rifle buffer tube goes on the pistol, I would think that it would depend alot on the fact that a stock could be attached and intent. Before I did something like that, I'd make sure to get a letter from the ATFE first. Telephone calls don't count.


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:40:18 PM EST
Since the sunset are forward mounted vertical grips ok on the ar-pistols?

FS
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:51:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Full_Spectrum:
Since the sunset are forward mounted vertical grips ok on the ar-pistols?

FS



No, thats an AOW.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:04:27 PM EST
Where is the best place, to get them pistol parts for a build ?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:02:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By BallisticTip:
Where is the best place, to get them pistol parts for a build ?



Search for threads on AR-15 pistols over the past couple weeks and see the issues that have come up!!! OA-93 uppers (Olympic Arms) may work better then the Model-1 Sales Buffer system most of us are trying to get running... Do the search as that is only a guess!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:05:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:

Originally Posted By BallisticTip:
Where is the best place, to get them pistol parts for a build ?



Search for threads on AR-15 pistols over the past couple weeks and see the issues that have come up!!! OA-93 uppers (Olympic Arms) may work better then the Model-1 Sales Buffer system most of us are trying to get running... Do the search as that is only a guess!



Good guess. You are correct.
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