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Posted: 11/17/2003 6:48:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Black Hills has a round that does this, but must be tuned/loaded to the gun. It is currently only useful for limited firing sessions.
They also don't sell it commerically. It's a gov only product last time I talked to Jeff over there... EBR is working towards the same goal, and I heard a rumor that HSM was doing one that cycled, but haven't confirmed it. Might want to check with TTI Armory in Salt Lake City as well if they've developed anything. Kel |
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Posted: 11/18/2003 8:17:56 AM EDT
[#2]
Kel is spot on...
TTI (if it's in stock) Also Extreme Shock USA...I think it's extremeshockusa.com Good Luck. |
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Posted: 11/18/2003 11:07:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Also Extreme Shock USA...I think it's extremeshockusa.com [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=172612[/url] |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 9:01:11 AM EDT
[#4]
Big D...
I was referring to their SUBSONIC rounds... not their... "frag-into-1000bits-kill-a-russian boar-ammo" There is a difference. |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 12:01:42 PM EDT
[#5]
If it will not cycle an ar-15, I don't see much need for it. How many people use a bolt action 223? I would think that most bolt guns are going to be 300 or 308.
We can put people in space for six months, fire a missile from 600 miles away and have it hit a certain window in a building but we cant have subsonic 223 that cycles an ar 15 that is readily available??? Come on ammo manufacturer, help us out here...lol |
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Posted: 11/20/2003 12:27:17 PM EDT
[#6]
You can always open up the gas port and then put in an adjustable gas tube. This will definitely work but time intensive. The suppressor will help too with the cycle as that keeps alot of the gas back.
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Posted: 11/20/2003 3:35:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Doesnt sound like a dependable battle rifle either. I will stick to standard round, and just deal with the balistic crack.
Thinking about getting a conversion kit to pop some 22 through it when i need a quieter round for pest control...lol |
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Posted: 11/22/2003 10:54:27 AM EDT
[#8]
A couple of guys up above mentioned to check TTI Armory ammunition for cycling subsonic ammo. I'll save you the time; I'm a TTI distributor and they do not have that item in their inventory right now. Believe me, I have asked. It's high on my wish list as well, and I hound them incessantly to come out with one.
They do make a subsonic .223 load, but it does not cycle actions. In the pic, it is the round furthest to the right. I have shot this round in my suppressed M16 and it is quiet, but I think this round is most useful for bolt action or single shot rifles. [img]http://www.mikesbasementinc.com/images/ttisub.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 11/23/2003 4:21:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Extreme Shock does sell ammo that will cycle the action of an M16/AR15 very well. I purchased one box of this ammo and it fires at 975fps from my M16A1 with an 11.5 inch upper using an AWC Raider Suppressor. It cycled the action well. However, the noise from the bolt carrier is loud but the bullet is subsonic. Firing it from the 11.5 inch upper worked well and accurate at 25 yds but at 50 yds the bullet began to tumble. This ammo is very expensive at around $72 for 20 rounds. It's there if you want to spend the high dollars.
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Posted: 12/8/2003 12:04:05 PM EDT
[#10]
What about shortening the buffer spring with the TTI stuff?
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Posted: 12/8/2003 5:02:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: If it will not cycle an ar-15, I don't see much need for it. How many people use a bolt action 223? I would think that most bolt guns are going to be 300 or 308. A lot of people shoot small caliber bolt-guns. CZ, Remington, and all the big names make bolt action varmint rifles. Not everybody hunts hogs with their pimped out mall ninja battle rifle. I have a friend with a CZ .223 bolt-action (572 maybe?) and it's perfect for snatching up hogs at 200 yards. .308 is MIGHTY overkill on a ground hog (for that matter, .223 probably is, too, but you can reach out and touch them from further away than a .22LR). ~AbM |
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Posted: 12/8/2003 9:12:57 PM EDT
[#12]
We usually use .22 WMR for hog, but 5.56 is gaining ground rather fast. You effectively triple your range (at the least) with the heavy 5.56 ammo.
What are you planning on using it for? Subsonic 5.56 has abysmal terminal ballistics, so hopefully you're not planning on using it for defensive purposes... Black Hills made some ammo up for the military that was subsonic and cycled the action with a suppressor. I guess you could call them up and see if there were any overruns? -Cap'n |
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Posted: 12/9/2003 7:18:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Not everybody hunts hogs with their pimped out mall ninja battle rifle. Mall Ninja Battle rifle??......lol Thats so true though. But I would guess that about 80% or more of the people on this board are armchair warriors, who have no "real" need to even have an AR rifle in the first place. Our SRT wants to use subsonic .223 for inside shooting huses, or buildings. A .223 fired on full auto burst inside a house can be deafening. I was looking for some to test the suppressor I machined for my own AR. My design has a similar sound to the $795 Gemtec suppressors that the operators use on their M4's, but I would like to see what kind of difference there is with sub ammo. |
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Posted: 12/9/2003 7:27:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Apparently there is a market opening for someone who wants to swage some jacketed 120 grain bullets in .224 caliber.
Really, that's all we need. Someone swage the bullets and sell them for about $.35 each and we'll develop the load data for them. |
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Posted: 12/9/2003 7:59:52 AM EDT
[#15]
That's not quite all...
You'd need a 1:6.5 twist barrel, and you'd need to adjust the gas & recoil system, because these rounds are pretty far out of the zone that a standard AR is set up for. The bottom line is: there aren't any subsonic rounds that are going to work out of a typical factory AR, and physics pretty much guarentees that there won't be any. Besides, 5.56mm ammo relies so heavily on velocity for its wound potential that it makes very little sense to use subsonic 5.56. A much better choice would be to use a .22LR conversion kit and subsonic .22LR ammo. These bullets are *designed* to perform (i.e., expansion/penetration) at subsonic velocities. And, need I mention that it's a CHEAP solution? -Troy |
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Posted: 12/9/2003 9:35:42 AM EDT
[#16]
HA! "thats all we need"
How about a 1 in 6 twist to stabilize that long projo? might even need a one in 5.5. I'd like to see you get some barrel makers to contemplate that!
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Posted: 12/10/2003 9:26:39 AM EDT
[#17]
I was speaking a little tongue in cheek, but I believe a 1/6.5 will suffice. Maybe a 1/7 if you design the bullet properly.
Remember, the bullet is going to be moving slow, so it will be for relatively short applications. Since it is a slow bullet, it doesn't need a long tapered point, which will increase the length of the bullet. Keep it short and stubby, with a relatively long bearing surface. Mr. Greenhill recommends a bullet shorter than 1.3 inches long for 1-7" twist. Doable? Why the hell not!? As far as the gas system and other important considerations, I'll leave it to the experts. Perhaps a weaker buffer spring, or an adjustable gas block would solve the problems. |
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Posted: 12/10/2003 11:16:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Torf,
You're missing the point: the people who ask this question always want subsonic ammo that works and cycles there EXISTING rifle, which they intend to use with standard ammo MOST of the time, and *occasionally* with subsonic ammo. Not only does this 5.56 ammo not exist, but is unlikely to ever exist, and even if it did, you'd be hard-pressed to beat the advantages of using .22LR. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 6:46:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Troy,
This ammo does exist, will cycle the action of an AR15 or M16 FA. I've tested it, I don't like it, but it exists. See my reply above for specifics when tested on my M16A1, 11.5 Colt Upper w/AWC suppressor. I agree that if someone is looking for the best solution is to go with a .22 upper and use subsonic ammo that is less expensive and will have the desired results on small game at close range. |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 7:59:48 AM EDT
[#20]
I did not read anything about bullet yaw. Does all the high zoot ammo have something that I don't know about.
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Posted: 12/13/2003 12:13:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Troy, This ammo does exist, will cycle the action of an AR15 or M16 FA. I've tested it, I don't like it, but it exists. See my reply above for specifics when tested on my M16A1, 11.5 Colt Upper w/AWC suppressor. I saw that, and also noted that the bullet lost stability before reaching even 50 yards. That's what I was trying to say, that a lot of guys think they can simply find some ammo that will cycle in their rifle, be subsonic, and otherwise give them "rifle range", meaning useful trajectories out to at least 200 yards, *from their existing rifles*, many of which are 1:9 twist. Now, certainly you understand that the range you describe (25-30 yards) would be good enough for CQB, where, say, an MP5 might normally be used. I'd agree with that, though we don't know what the wound profile of that ammo looks like either. And, as you pointed out, at nearly $4 per round, you won't be having much fun if you're the one to pony up for the ammo. -Troy |
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