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Posted: 4/12/2006 8:39:00 AM EST
Is there any commercial ammo produced specifically for barrels from 7.5" to 11.5"? What I am looking for is something with super fast burning powder for minimal muzzle flash and maximum velocity. I am not interested in doing reloads at this point, as I can't afford it. I just need something between 68gr and 80gr that will perform well out of the CMMG 7.3" pistol I am planning on getting. If I can find the right ammo, it will become a home defense weapon. I am hoping to find ammunition that will fragment out to 50 yards, but realize this may be difficult without going +p+, which from all I have heard can effect the weapon's reliability and or lifespan.

Need help!

Thanks for any info.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 11:40:22 AM EST
There is no "+P" or "+P+" in rifle ammo.

You will NEVER get fragmentation to 50 yards out of a 7" barrel with a heavy OTM.

You WILL have massive muzzle flash and blast with a 7.5" 5.56 AR, there isn't any powder which will do what you want. Best you can do is get a Noveski Krink Brake or a supressor to handle flash & blast.

Use of a 5.56 'pistol' for anything other than 'range play' isn't smart. Go with a Carbine.

Best load to try would be 75gr TAP, but I don't know how fast it will be moving out of a 7.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 2:37:27 PM EST
try the reloading forum. you are looking for something odd, might have KB written on it.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 3:02:49 PM EST
the best solution for 11.5 inche barrels is a gas piston gas system like Lietner-wise. With their system the piston cycles fully before the bullet leaves the barrel so you wont have a problem
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 4:28:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 4:39:26 PM EST by jonoboy]
Thanks guys. I was planning on trying 75gr TAP already; I guess I was on the right track. I think I'll try the Noveske suppressor as well. How much does it help direct blast/noise away from the operator? I've heard good things about the KX3 system, but no one has given any figures or data regarding performance. Any first hand descriptions will be much appreciated.

Hey Forest,

Could you elaborate on this statement?

"Use of a 5.56 'pistol' for anything other than 'range play' isn't smart."

What exactly "isn't smart" about usage of the specimen below for HD? http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/jonoboy/MyPalSport.jpg



I understand noise and flash are horrendous from a 7.5" barrel. My proposed solution: Noveske KX3 + electronic hearing protection (which I will definitely get if I go with the CMMG setup). My question is what necessarily precludes the AR15 pistol from the home defense category? Is it the fact that the marginal terminal ballistics isn’t compensated by full auto fire? The funny thing is that if I did an SBR job on it, many people would suddenly call it a combat capable weapon. Why? What has really improved other than having multi-position shoulder support and the option to add a foregrip? I agree that SBR's win hand's down in the looks department, making the poor old AR pistol appear quite frumpy. But where I live SBR's are illegal to own, so my options are limited. What I need is a platform which possesses superiority to an ordinary pistol in the following respects:

* armor penetration capability (more and more bad guys are equipping themselves with soft armor)

* mounting surfaces

* controllability (i.e. two handed hold with cheek support)

* "scare factor" (as hopeful deterrent)

* range/accuracy

* magazine capacity

* range fun!!!!

This weapon will also be a truck/wilderness gun. I will probably get a 12 gauge Mossberg for HD eventually anyway. I don't like the idea of the guy not having any chance of survival, however, which is just about always the case with a shotgun at indoor distances.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:07:39 PM EST
Not to rag but I have to ask why you would go to the trouble to mount iron sights on a gun like this. Its not like you can actually shoulder it and use them with any kind of accuracy I think. Could be wrong but,,, I wouldnt have even gone for the eotech. Id just grip it and rip it cause it seems suited for not much more than very close work. Flash, noise and recoil?? Give me a shotgun.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:27:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 7:57:30 PM EST by jonoboy]
Hey tnek,

Regarding your statement: "Its not like you can actually shoulder it and use them with any kind of accuracy I think."

That buffer tube adds some cheek support whether or not a stock is covering it.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:51:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 7:58:12 PM EST by jonoboy]
.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:57:51 PM EST
I was thinking about building an AR pistol for home defence myself. DPMS sells 7.62x39 AR's and I think that this would make a nice pistol. A bit more expensive to build I'm sure and parts may be a bit more expensive, but a 7.62x39 softpoint would do quite nicely out of a short barrel out to 100 yds.

In fact I think I just might look into this some more.

Anyone done this yet??
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:02:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 8:03:41 PM EST by jonoboy]
My only concern would be the reliable functioning of softpoint rounds, but I may be wrong. It is true that 7.62 softpoint can have devastating results when at 2000fps and higher velocities.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 8:13:05 PM EST
Well you could always use Hp's or just go with fmj. The .30 cal hole is still better than a .223 cal hole if it's not fragmenting.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:00:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By jonoboy:
Hey Forest,

Could you elaborate on this statement?

"Use of a 5.56 'pistol' for anything other than 'range play' isn't smart."

What exactly "isn't smart" about usage of the specimen below for HD? i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/jonoboy/MyPalSport.jpg


1) barrel is too short. If you don't get the round up to speed you won't be doing much.

2) Lack of stock. You're not going to be holding that like a pistol and it lacks the stock for a goodl hold like a carbine.


My question is what necessarily precludes the AR15 pistol from the home defense category? Is it the fact that the marginal terminal ballistics isn’t compensated by full auto fire?

That's one.



The funny thing is that if I did an SBR job on it, many people would suddenly call it a combat capable weapon. Why?


Those same people would say it's 'combat capable' as a pistol too.

Give it at least a 10" barrel and a stock and you're good to go.


I agree that SBR's win hand's down in the looks department,

it's never about looks - it's about functionality.


* controllability (i.e. two handed hold with cheek support)

LOL - "Cheek support". I want


* "scare factor" (as hopeful deterrent)

LOL if you're using a light (as you SHOULD be) they won't be able to see your weapon.

However a jury may...


* range/accuracy

Yeah I want to see how accurate it's going to be w/o a stock.

Take it to a carbine class and tell us how it compares to those guys running with stocks.



This weapon will also be a truck/wilderness gun.

WHY would anyone want to go in the woods with a 7" barreled AR?


I don't like the idea of the guy not having any chance of survival, however, which is just about always the case with a shotgun at indoor distances.

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:03:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By jonoboy:
Hey tnek,

Regarding your statement: "Its not like you can actually shoulder it and use them with any kind of accuracy I think."

That buffer tube adds some cheek support whether or not a stock is covering it.



I have never shot a pistol like it so I would be somewhat supprised but to each his own. Looks cool though.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 6:51:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 7:00:05 AM EST by 53vortec]
Unless you live in an abandoned phone booth or a Vega I can't see the utility of such a piece - if that IS your life situation, you have a lot more important things to deal with than what round you should use in a AR pistol.

You're making extreme sacrifices in accuracy, control, and terminal performance for little or no return. What's wrong with a 16" AR carbine? Think it's too long? Try this - stand with your back against a wall, and hold a regular handgun out in the firing position - have a buddy measure the distance from the wall to the muzzle. Now do the same thing with a shouldered 16" carbine - you'll find the difference to be negligible.

The AR pistol would seem to be a poor use of your home defence budget.

Let's see what you've got here - $625 for a CMMG 7.3" upper, $125 for a Noveske FS, say $200 for a complete lower and $100 for electronic hearing protection. That's $1,050 not counting mags. ammo, sights, and other accessories.

You could take that same $1,050, buy a new Glock 19 with two magazines ($500); two additional mags ($40); a good holster ($50); a 1,000 round case of practice ammo ($120); 250 rounds of defensive ammo ($100); a quality tactical light ($90); and, perhaps most importantly, a defensive handgun class for $125.

Grand total? $1,025 - you'll have a comprehensive home defense package and enough cash left over to rent a movie and get a pizza.

Just my .02, worth exactly what you paid for it!

ETA: Still want that AR punch? add the cost of that EOTech to the AR pistol price, and you can buy a Bushmaster Patrolman Carbine from CDNN ($799) instead of the Glock, and take the Glock mag/holster money ($90) and buy 10 mil-spec thirty round mags from Bravo Company or 44Mag.com
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:24:01 AM EST
TTI Armory optimized 5.56 is for 10.5" developed for SOCOM specifications.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 1:10:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 1:11:12 PM EST by jonoboy]
Thanks ryan34!
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 3:15:49 PM EST
+ 1 53vortec 's statement.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 4:05:40 PM EST
I have to completely agree with Forest and 53vortec. While I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with it or anything else for that matter, using a weapon like this for home defense is really not a very good idea. If a carbine is out of the question then you would be worlds better off with a pistol or shotgun for interior home defense.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:44:45 PM EST
I would love to see the muzzle flash when using some XM193. The sound must be deafening also. Too much flash and noise for me.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 7:55:42 PM EST
Wes is building the "Diplomat" with a 7" barrel. Maybe ask him what he recommends his
serious users to use in i?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:59:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By jonoboy:
This weapon will also be a truck/wilderness gun. I will probably get a 12 gauge Mossberg for HD eventually anyway. I don't like the idea of the guy not having any chance of survival, however, which is just about always the case with a shotgun at indoor distances.





Please, for the love of all that's good and holy, give me one good reason you would want a guy who is invading your home to survive if you shoot him?!?!? Do you think he wants you to survive?? Do you think he gives half a shit about you?? If someone comes into my home intent on harming me, my family or my property he is as good as dead. If he is armed, I guarantee he has no such reservations about whether you will survive an encounter or not.

You better wake up and smell the espresso if you want to defend yourself in this world. If you are at all hesitant on killing an intruder then you will be the one who ends up in the morgue, not him.

Consider also the fact that if he does survive he will probably sue you to smithereens and, God help you, you'll wish he'd died...
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:27:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:
I would love to see the muzzle flash when using some XM193. The sound must be deafening also. Too much flash and noise for me.



I got to witness the XM193/AR pistol combo one time at an indoor range. I don't know the exact length of the barrel, but the flash and noise was VERY impressive. The guy that had the pistol was having feeding problems with his mags/Wolf ammo combo. I handed him one of my USGI mags loaded with XM193 to try. It fixed his feeding problems but HOLY SHIT!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 8:25:38 AM EST
Re-read Forest's comments above.

As usual, he is correct.

An AR pistol may be a fun gun to play with, but it ain't a rifle.

And, as we know, rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:13:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By jonoboy:
Thanks guys. I was planning on trying 75gr TAP already; I guess I was on the right track. I think I'll try the Noveske suppressor as well. How much does it help direct blast/noise away from the operator? I've heard good things about the KX3 system, but no one has given any figures or data regarding performance. Any first hand descriptions will be much appreciated.

Hey Forest,

Could you elaborate on this statement?

"Use of a 5.56 'pistol' for anything other than 'range play' isn't smart."

What exactly "isn't smart" about usage of the specimen below for HD? i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/jonoboy/MyPalSport.jpg



I understand noise and flash are horrendous from a 7.5" barrel. My proposed solution: Noveske KX3 + electronic hearing protection (which I will definitely get if I go with the CMMG setup). My question is what necessarily precludes the AR15 pistol from the home defense category? Is it the fact that the marginal terminal ballistics isn’t compensated by full auto fire? The funny thing is that if I did an SBR job on it, many people would suddenly call it a combat capable weapon. Why? What has really improved other than having multi-position shoulder support and the option to add a foregrip? I agree that SBR's win hand's down in the looks department, making the poor old AR pistol appear quite frumpy. But where I live SBR's are illegal to own, so my options are limited. What I need is a platform which possesses superiority to an ordinary pistol in the following respects:

* armor penetration capability (more and more bad guys are equipping themselves with soft armor)

* mounting surfaces

* controllability (i.e. two handed hold with cheek support)

* "scare factor" (as hopeful deterrent)

* range/accuracy

* magazine capacity

* range fun!!!!

This weapon will also be a truck/wilderness gun. I will probably get a 12 gauge Mossberg for HD eventually anyway. I don't like the idea of the guy not having any chance of survival, however, which is just about always the case with a shotgun at indoor distances.

Any more pics of the gun .
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:30:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
Give it at least a 10" barrel and a stock and you're good to go.



LOL, that's exactly what I am doing: 10.5" barrel and SBR. BATF just cashed my cheque so I know they got my Form 1. Now hopefully they won't lose it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 7:42:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:29:08 PM EST

AR pistols in 5.56 are NOT adequate weapons; they are range toys.


"But I dun shot a wet phone book and it did exploded!!"
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