Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 10/13/2018 4:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yesterday 9:28:25 AM EDT by Donster_125]
So I am in a dilemma and before I spend a lot of money on optics for my rifles, I wanted to get opinions from the hive.

So my rifles are as follows:

PWS 14.5”
DD Mk12

Now I was initially thinking of a PA 1-8x platinum on the Mk12 and maybe a PA 1-6x Raptor on the 14.5”.

But now I’m thinking that perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself with BDC reticles. I know they are busy by definition and I’m wondering if I switch to a Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 with MOA reticle for both rifles; specifically the 1-6x on the 14.5” and a 2-10x on the DD.

Now the OCD part of me is thinking that I’m seriously missing out by not having a BDC reticle.

The logical part of me says I can learn my dope and my reticle and I don’t have to worry about the BDC not lining up. I can use standard MOA reticles and have a consistent sight pictures in terms of glass quality since the scopes are from the same line. Plus all reticles will work with all loads.

So what are the thoughts of the hive. Are MOA reticles dead and BDC the future?

I know from a minute of man and military perspective with a standard rifle and ammo it makes sense but again, what do I know?

I like the idea of the PST Gen 2 line as a turn key solution for my rifles.

So thoughts?

EDIT:

Rifles will be used our to 500 yards.

14.5” will be used primarily for fighting rifle courses.
Mk12 will be used for precision rifle courses.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 4:59:15 PM EDT
You are over thinking it, buy a scope, mount it and shoot it till you know where it will hit.
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 5:04:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Traderjac:
You are over thinking it, buy a scope, mount it and shoot it till you know where it will hit.
View Quote
That’s what I thought. Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/13/2018 5:45:41 PM EDT
5.56 BDCs are pretty easy to use since 5.56 is a pretty flat shooting round.

I like to zero at the 300 yard/meter hash (at 300) and confirm POI at all other distances. With 77gr It's usually an inch and a half or so high at 100, and too close to tell out to 5-600.
Link Posted: Yesterday 9:28:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
5.56 BDCs are pretty easy to use since 5.56 is a pretty flat shooting round.

I like to zero at the 300 yard/meter hash (at 300) and confirm POI at all other distances. With 77gr It's usually an inch and a half or so high at 100, and too close to tell out to 5-600.
View Quote
Fair enough. So you think BDC is the way to go?
Link Posted: Yesterday 9:35:13 AM EDT
I use a plain duplex as I don't like busy scopes (hunting, not paper). Seems to me if you know the range then a bdc would be fine, if you don't know the range then the moa might be better since it can be used as a rangefinder.
Link Posted: Yesterday 11:03:46 AM EDT
Not really. Measuring stuff with a reticle and calculating range is not a good way to do things. You're almost just as well off to just walk 'em and skip the math. The best you'll likely do is a smidge over 50% first round hit probability.
Link Posted: Yesterday 2:23:07 PM EDT
Good BDC reticles are not busy. They are super simple.

For short to medium range (0-500) I think a BDC is superior to a MRAD or MOA type scope for practical sized targets.

If you want to shoot a golf ball at 300 yards you need a very fine reticle. But then you need more magnification and that is a different type of goal and a different type of scope entirely.

So many people are incorrect about the utility of a BDC with a variety of ammo. If the BDC is properly regulated, it will be close enough to work with a variety of ammo. This utility can be expanded by breaking free of the mode of thinking that you MUST zero at exactly 100 or 200 yards. You can shift the curve of an ammo to fit the BDC by zeroing at, say 225 yards instead of 200 yards if you are shooting ammo that is a bit slower.

I need to work up a big detailed post of this with a bunch of different ammo, a bunch of different chrono data, and a bunch of strelok reticle photos to illustrate this, and beg someone to make it a sticky. I have shared this info no less than a dozen times.
Link Posted: Yesterday 2:28:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Donster_125:

I like the idea of the PST Gen 2 line as a turn key solution for my rifles.

So thoughts?

EDIT:

Rifles will be used our to 500 yards.

14.5” will be used primarily for fighting rifle courses.
Mk12 will be used for precision rifle courses.
View Quote
PST Gen 2 will be a good fit.

1-6 on the 14.5.

I have a PST Gen 2 3-15 on my PRS Gas Gun rifle. I am impressed with it, but I don't have much experience with it yet frankly.

BDC for quick and dirty fighting rifle.

MRAD or MOA scope for more precision. I went MRAD.



I like BDC type reticles on my low powered optics.

Link Posted: Yesterday 2:30:26 PM EDT
The PST Gen2 doesn't offer a BDC now that I look at it.

Either the MRAD or the MOA version will work. You just need to learn your holds. I do like the simplicity of a BDC. The JM-1 reticle was a large part of the reason I bought a Razor.
Link Posted: Yesterday 3:22:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yesterday 3:23:40 PM EDT by Vespid_Wasp]
Originally Posted By Donster_125:

But now I’m thinking that perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself with BDC reticles. I know they are busy by definition and I’m wondering if I switch to a Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 with MOA reticle for both rifles; specifically the 1-6x on the 14.5” and a 2-10x on the DD.

14.5” will be used primarily for fighting rifle courses.
Mk12 will be used for precision rifle courses.
View Quote
The PST Gen2 3-15 is only less than 2 ounces heavier than the 2-10 and it is available with the excellent EBR-2C reticle. I wager you will be glad you went to that scope over the 2-10 when the wind is blowing. Just my .02.

I haven't used the Primary Arms scopes but I know many people are very happy with them. I don't mean to disparage them in any way. I am well pleased with my Vortex optics.
Link Posted: Yesterday 4:45:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Yesterday 4:46:00 PM EDT by Donster_125]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Vespid_Wasp:

The PST Gen2 3-15 is only less than 2 ounces heavier than the 2-10 and it is available with the excellent EBR-2C reticle. I wager you will be glad you went to that scope over the 2-10 when the wind is blowing. Just my .02.

I haven't used the Primary Arms scopes but I know many people are very happy with them. I don't mean to disparage them in any way. I am well pleased with my Vortex optics.
View Quote
I was planning on putting the 3-15x MOA Gen 2 on my 24” 6.5cm.
Link Posted: Today 8:35:31 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
5.56 BDCs are pretty easy to use since 5.56 is a pretty flat shooting round.

I like to zero at the 300 yard/meter hash (at 300) and confirm POI at all other distances. With 77gr It's usually an inch and a half or so high at 100, and too close to tell out to 5-600.
View Quote
Pretty fair assessment. I have a TA31-D (geared to M193) that also works wonderfully with 77gr loads zero'd that way. Plus/minus 3" out to 600 is more about me being able to do a) range estimation and b) dope the wind.

I would say to the OP, if you are considering a particular BDC reticle, go back to the company and ASK them what are the specific MOA drops between their hashmarks. First response is likely to be something like quoting from their own manual, e.g., "Zero at 100 and at 300 you'll be dead-on, blah, blah..." Don't settle for that; you want to know the actual divisions between them. If they publish a detailed image of their reticle, great. Then, using basic ballistic software, you can often find a slightly altered zero that you can do - as samuse pointed out above - that makes your load work for you in practical terms.
Link Posted: Today 9:41:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: Today 10:30:04 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PA_Mike:

If you guys want my opinion...
View Quote
Id be interested when you get a moment... TIA.
Link Posted: Today 11:15:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PA_Mike:
You guys know you can always hit me up with questions and I'm happy to run numbers too, either to confirm or to try to find a better solution. I do it all the time, it's part of my job and I enjoy it.
View Quote
Fair enough. Everyone has their own set of circumstances they live in (e.g., clone attacks) & that can be respected. I've found as you indicate that the better firms' support folks are like you, in that they eat this stuff up & are happy to engage with someone on specific questions.
Link Posted: Today 11:46:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: Today 12:01:54 PM EDT
@PA_Mike

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. This obsession of mine came from seeing the reticles PA has been putting out. But my issue with PA (respectfully) is that they only have 1 option for a high-end glass LPVO.

Vortex’s PST II line is a solid option that covers all my bases.

However, I feel like I’m “missing out” if I don’t go with a BDC reticle.

However, when I used StrelokPro, the 1-8x platinum lines up perfectly with my Mk12, but none of the BDCs worked as well with my 14.5”.

This is why I’m at a loss. On one hand, I have proof for one of my rifles that BDC is great. On the other, MOA works well and I can have cross rifle uniformity.
Link Posted: Today 12:33:47 PM EDT
I have spent 35 years shooting NRA/DCM/CMP tournaments and over that course of time have been very comfortable clicking elevation and windage over the course of fire .

BDC is fast and furious for GI's to quickly get on target, not necessarily for great precision. It's a rough tool for close enough.

Learning mildot or moa drops isn't as fast as BDC but can help with ranging.

I zero every rifle I own that doesn't have a BDC at 200 yards. I know my clicks from years of practice.

Use what works for you and what you feel the most comfortable with. If you get a BDC, zero it at 300 yards using the 300 yard hash mark. Doing this will balance the BDC for use with your ammo and rifle combination.

You may be a little high or a little low at other distances, but overall you rifle will work with your BDC.
Link Posted: Today 12:40:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
Not really. Measuring stuff with a reticle and calculating range is not a good way to do things. You're almost just as well off to just walk 'em and skip the math. The best you'll likely do is a smidge over 50% first round hit probability.
View Quote
You must be joking.
Top Top