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Posted: 9/1/2004 7:48:12 PM EST
I take it a few others here are going to be picking up some stripped lowers and papering them as pistols soon?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:12:12 PM EST
some michiganders are for sure
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:51:41 PM EST
I plan on a couple lowers off the bat and build later. It'll be nice to use a short float tube and no weight B.S to deal with and a screw on muzzle device. I'll probably paper any new stripped lowers as pistols now. You can always build a pistol to a rifle later. Might be worth a few buck's more sometime down the road also.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:22:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By PAPPYO:
I take it a few others here are going to be picking up some stripped lowers and papering them as pistols soon?



All ready done.........

just waiting for Sept 13 to have a semi auto one w/out the restrictions
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:36:01 PM EST
Ok, this is the question, how do you "paper" them as pistols?
sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but I can't ever get any hits off this search feature.

also in MI...
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:52:29 PM EST
Done! My AR semi auto pistol w/ bayo lug and flash hider is DONE. Testing this week......

Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:54:58 PM EST
Ordering a kit from Model 1 tomorrow
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 8:57:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By WTS-Mike:
Ok, this is the question, how do you "paper" them as pistols?
sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but I can't ever get any hits off this search feature.

also in MI...



Find dealer who will transfer in AR lower. Find a dealer selling stripped AR receivers...ask if he will lable invoice as pistol. (FYI- Eagle Firearms has experiance w/ the pistols. www.eaglefirearms.net) Have your receiving dealer fill the 4473 and list it as a pistol. If you have a state pistol form, fill that out too.... there...done.

The BS about it having to be logged out at the factory as a "pistol receiver" is BS. The ONLY requirment the BATF says is it has to be a receiver that has never had a butt stock attatched. And that proof of it being a stripped receiver is possible (ie it was logged out as stripped from factory, not just Joe Dealer saying it was a stripped lower....last thing you want is a rifle that was stripped for parts and resold as stripped...but was orginally rifle!)
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 9:26:31 PM EST
Thank You
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 3:57:40 PM EST
I've wanted an AR pistol for a little while now but didn't want to spend an arm an a leg on one. I just checked out Model 1 Sales' site and noticed the "All NFA Rules Apply" disclaimer on the pistol upper page. I assume they're referring to not using the upper to create a rifle, correct?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:12:44 PM EST
Ideally, those short uppers are for use with machine gun, or SBR (MG & SBR are "NFA"), but can lawfully be used for pistol also.

As soon as you put a stock on that there pistol, you are now in violation af NFA, as you now have an un-registered SBR....
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:24:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
Ideally, those short uppers are for use with machine gun, or SBR (MG & SBR are "NFA"), but can lawfully be used for pistol also.

As soon as you put a stock on that there pistol, you are now in violation af NFA, as you now have an un-registered SBR....



Thanks for the verification. I've read up on NFA stuff in the past and I'm relatively familiar with it and I'm guessing their website hasn't received it's post-AWB tweaks yet.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:48:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
As soon as you put a stock on that there pistol, you are now in violation af NFA, as you now have an un-registered SBR....



Providing you left the short barreled uper on the lower! :-)

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:28:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 8:37:57 PM EST by WTS-Mike]
OK, heres a question for ya...

What about owning two complete guns, a 16" carbine, and a 7.5" pistol... (2 lowers, 2 uppers)

Crazy but, Could "they" construe that the presense of both parts(7.5 upper & stocked lower) in the same room/house/possession = a SBR?
kinda like the M16 parts and the ar15 together (not installed) = machinegun

I think common sense prevails on this one hopefully, because anyone who has an AR pistol, probably owns other AR rifles too, so the above scenario would probably exist..

now if guess if you had the short upper with no pistol lower to put it on, then you'd be pushing it huh?

Of course now that spawns another question... What if all you have is a Pistol lower and 7.5" upper and you decide to get a 20" upper and a stock, would you now be able to have a rifle and a pistol?! Like a TC contender pistol + a stock and rifle barrel.

changeable between both configurations, but not MIXED to a SBR status...

and now the final question that comes to mind... If you have this nifty AR pistol with FIRSH handguards, so you can mount all the gadgets (lights lasers, etc..) would you be able to put a vertical forgrip on it, or seeing as it is a pistol, the foregrip would make it an AOW (NFA any other weapon like SP89 to a MP5K)

I know I tacked a lot of questions on this thread, but I think they are related, and this is a discussion board right? Sorry for so many Q's, just feeling curious tonight I guess...

thoughts, comments, etc...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 9:32:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 9:34:17 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By WTS-Mike:
OK, heres a question for ya...

What about owning two complete guns, a 16" carbine, and a 7.5" pistol... (2 lowers, 2 uppers)

Crazy but, Could "they" construe that the presense of both parts(7.5 upper & stocked lower) in the same room/house/possession = a SBR?
kinda like the M16 parts and the ar15 together (not installed) = machinegun



They might, but a good lawyer should be able to get the charges dropped before going to court, as a meaningless case.

I would be, well, I am in that situation as of now. I have a semi auto pistol and regular AR's. If you have the pistol lower, then you are entittled to have the shorter barrel- it's a no brainer....why have a pistol AR w/ a 16" barrel??? Only a dumb or desperate DA would try to push a case like that.....



I think common sense prevails on this one hopefully, because anyone who has an AR pistol, probably owns other AR rifles too, so the above scenario would probably exist..

now if guess if you had the short upper with no pistol lower to put it on, then you'd be pushing it huh?



Yup, a short upper w/out a "pistol" is out of question. When the ban was in effect, having a less then 16" w/out an SBR permit would most likely been looked at as "intent". Not many people have/had a pre ban semi auto pistol to "justify" the under 16" upper I would say.



Of course now that spawns another question... What if all you have is a Pistol lower and 7.5" upper and you decide to get a 20" upper and a stock, would you now be able to have a rifle and a pistol?! Like a TC contender pistol + a stock and rifle barrel.

changeable between both configurations, but not MIXED to a SBR status...



A 7.5"! In 223! Dang, a waist of powder! That wouldn't be a gun, it would be a flame thrower!!

It can be done I say. Look at the 1911 and the Glock "carbine" kits. So as long as the barrel is 16" BEFORE the stock goes on, you are safe.

I plan to todo that w/ this pistol of mine. Turn it into a rifle once in a while....that's the plan.... don't knwo if I will.... A pistol can become a rifle and then return to a pistol. A rifle can NEVER become a pistol, not w/out the right paper work being filed.



and now the final question that comes to mind... If you have this nifty AR pistol with FIRSH handguards, so you can mount all the gadgets (lights lasers, etc..) would you be able to put a vertical forgrip on it, or seeing as it is a pistol, the foregrip would make it an AOW (NFA any other weapon like SP89 to a MP5K)



No foregrip. That would be a class II I think..... BUT- I say mounting an "obviouse grip" would be a no-no. But, I think (hypotheically), a flashlight holder w/ a long "mount unit" could be used as a grip..... but wouldn't be an actual grip. I say a grey area....



I know I tacked a lot of questions on this thread, but I think they are related, and this is a discussion board right? Sorry for so many Q's, just feeling curious tonight I guess...

thoughts, comments, etc...



No problem. Lots of these questions are repeats, but now that it is POSSIBLE to have a semi auto AR pistol....... it is more relevent I say.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 6:22:34 AM EST
In regards to a pistol lower, I have a couple of questions.

First, does the lower have to physically marked as a pistol lower? IIRC, it does not.

Second, if the lower does not have to be physically marked as a pistol lower, I assume that buying a lower and having the lower listed on the 4473 as a "pistol lower" would be sufficient, correct?

I've already got a couple of AR rifles and want to make sure I cover all my bases. TIA.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:07:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 7:08:07 AM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By Matt_B:
In regards to a pistol lower, I have a couple of questions.

First, does the lower have to physically marked as a pistol lower? IIRC, it does not.

Second, if the lower does not have to be physically marked as a pistol lower, I assume that buying a lower and having the lower listed on the 4473 as a "pistol lower" would be sufficient, correct?

I've already got a couple of AR rifles and want to make sure I cover all my bases. TIA.



I don't know about the "marking". From what I have seen/read, no. People have posted that certain manufactuers who sold complete AR pistols did mark some with "PISTOL".

As to what I have read, getting it listed on the 4473 as "pistol" makes it a pistol. Don't forget any state pistol forms too. On my AR pistol build, the lower was listed on the 4473 as pistol and the state pistol form was filled out. Treat the stripped lower assemble as if it was a 1911 stripped frame so to speek.

Hope this works....(Hunt101 is not uploading, so had to use other source....)



Date of Birth: Sept 13, 2004 Time: 9:05pm PACIFIC (aka 12:05pm Eastern)

(if image doesn't show, try link: Link to pistol pic)
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:00:07 PM EST
So as long as it never had a stock, it is a pistol candidate?

ie: stripped lower
or lower w/out stock from factory (bushmaster complete lower without stock)
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:52:09 PM EST
It probably would be nice if a manufacturer picked up the ball and did offer a PISTOL marked lower. If a person did run into a LEO or Dept. that was'nt familiar with firearm laws I suppose one could find himself detained until they could get verification from a BATF agent and who knows how long that could take on a Sat./Sun.

Seems I'd seen a post awhile back on a board where a person called RRA, B.M, Oly, and a few other manufacturers and asked if they planned on offering pistol marked lowers after the ban. None of them had ant intent on offering a pistol marked lower. I'm sure theres a market for such an item
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:04:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By WTS-Mike:
So as long as it never had a stock, it is a pistol candidate?

ie: stripped lower
or lower w/out stock from factory (bushmaster complete lower without stock)



I don't know.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:11:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By PAPPYO:
Seems I'd seen a post awhile back on a board where a person called RRA, B.M, Oly, and a few other manufacturers and asked if they planned on offering pistol marked lowers after the ban. None of them had ant intent on offering a pistol marked lower. I'm sure theres a market for such an item



Guys, there is no need to mark a lower as a pistol.

Does it make you feel warm and fuzzy? Probably, mainly because a bunch of people do not know any better and have been passing false information, but that is another story...

I am sure something could be worked out to get lowers marked as PISTOL, if you wanted to pay $20 or $30 to make it happen. I would not waste my money, IMHO.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 10:13:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
As to what I have read, getting it listed on the 4473 as "pistol" makes it a pistol. Don't forget any state pistol forms too.



I am not sure this is true as far as ATF is concerned... I have my doubts.

The form should list the stripped receiver as "receiver." If someone wanted to feel good, they could put down, "receiver/pistol."

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:22:11 AM EST
Yes it would make me feel warm and fuzzy. I don't believe a jail cell feels warm and fuzzy nor do I believe paying an attorney 300 hr. will make me feel nice and fuzzy. An extra $30.00 for a lower marked pistol is no big deal, about an extra 7% of the total build. I carry insurance on my cars, bikes, home,self so $30.00 is kinda cheap for a life time policy. Also I believe resale would be helped with a reciever clearly marked as a pistol intead of TRUST ME IT'S A PISTOL.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:18:00 PM EST
to answer my own question, about the stripped or lower w/out stock, being elegible for pistoldom, I called Bushmaster and asked them (a firearms manufacturer) and they said either the stripped or the lower w/out buttstock could be registered as pistols, and that the lowers with FCG and no buttstock NEVER had a buttstock on them.

Just remember it has to transfer as a pistol, even if it has been made to be a rifle configuration later.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:07:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By WTS-Mike:
to answer my own question, about the stripped or lower w/out stock, being elegible for pistoldom, I called Bushmaster and asked them (a firearms manufacturer) and they said either the stripped or the lower w/out buttstock could be registered as pistols, and that the lowers with FCG and no buttstock NEVER had a buttstock on them.

Just remember it has to transfer as a pistol, even if it has been made to be a rifle configuration later.




i was just gonna ask this question so to clear things up, the front vertical grip is a no go?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 10:24:31 PM EST
pistol + forward grip = Any Other Weapon, According to NFA. Same as the amd 65 w/o stock. $5 transfer tax though. The reason is that it has both SBR or rifle features (the grip) and those of a pistol (no stock) therefore it doesn't fit into either category so it is an AOW.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:57:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 10:00:59 PM EST by WTS-Mike]
Here is the 7.5" Bushy pistol.

http://www.wolverinetactical.com/arpistol.jpg
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:31:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 7:44:25 PM EST by Junksamich]
I was under the impression that it doesn't matter what the lower was listed as on the 4473 form, as long as the lower is assembled as a pistol before it is ever been in a rifle configuration. Copied from another forum AWB questions on AR Pistols, AR Pistol, build I need some help!,
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 10:51:23 AM EST
hummmm....
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