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Posted: 11/28/2009 10:29:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2010 12:19:32 AM EDT by SuperSet72]
Ever since I started making the Trijicon TR24 my primary optic, I've wanted to shoot them side-by-side against my AimPoint T-1 to help quantify each optic's strengths and weaknesses. To stack them up with any confidence, I wanted to shoot against a known course of fire with as many equipment similarities as possible.

For the course of fire, I found this excellent classifier course, originally authored by Ken Hackathorn. I've shot a similar classifier using pistol for IDPA but no one had yet authored one for Carbines, until I found this COF. It tests a broad range of skills against the clock, while penalizing mistakes. You can find it here:

http://www.oregonshooter.com/index.php/articles/category/drills_cofs/

Additionally, I added an additional phase to test each optic's long range capabilities. As the original classifier takes you from contact out to 40 yards, a rifle should be able to take you out to 400 yards as long as you do your part. Our range has five 8" MGM flashers at 100, 150, 200, 250, and 350 yards. Starting from low ready, engage all the poppers from three different positions - standing, kneeling and prone. Use any available support. Par time will be 60 seconds.

So, for the equipment, I used 2 almost-identical ARs:



18" WOA 1-8 barrel (rifle-length handguard)
12" JP VTAC handguards
MSTN QC Muzzle Brake
KAC Handstop
AimPoint T-1 with Burris Tripler (Green AR)
Trijicon TR24 1-4X Green Triangle (Green AR#2)
Trijicon TR24 1-4X German No. 4 with Amber Reticule (Black AR)

For the classifier, all strings were executed at 1X magnification. For the long range stage, I used the Burris Tripler for the AimPoint and for the AccuPoint, I ran at 3X and 4X to see if there was any difference.

So, for the the full results:



Some observations:

1. Initially, I'm just as fast with my TR24 as my T-1. However, I dropped more points so the final time is 7% better using my AimPoint T-1. My best time was also using the T-1.
2. Phase 1 is the hardest to finish without dropping points using my TR24. I don't know why but the crosshair with amber dot seems harder to shoot while on the move.
3. Support shoulder shooting is also harder using the TR24.
4. You can successfully shoot a long-range stage using AimPoint + Magnifier but you'll be slower. 4X magnification makes it a little easier but even at 3X, the TR24's glass quality, reticule and FOV make it easier.

ETA: Added TR24 green triangle results (13 Feb 2010):
1. I can shoot faster with the green triangle but not as accurate as the T-1 (more points down). This may be due to the larger TR24 triangle reticule size (16.7MOA vs. 4MOA).
2. My best time is still using the T-1 (144.02) but when it comes to averages, the green triangle is a hair bit faster than the T-1 (152.39 vs. 152.70). So, you give up nothing when it comes to the green triangle vs. the T-1. This surprised me a bit.
3. What wasn't surprising is that the green triangle is tougher to shoot long-range vs. the TR24 German No. 4. This especially becomes apparent on 300y+ poppers since the double vertical lines make it more difficult to use holdover. But when it comes to averages, the triangle still performs better than the T-1 + magnifier combo when it comes to long-range.
Link Posted: 11/28/2009 10:44:06 PM EDT
Great job......
Link Posted: 11/28/2009 11:17:48 PM EDT
Interesting, thanks for the post.
Link Posted: 11/28/2009 11:35:09 PM EDT
Quality info!! Thanks for the data dude!

Looking to buy one of the aimpoints t1's, so its good to hear about your results!
Link Posted: 11/29/2009 4:04:37 AM EDT
Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time.
Link Posted: 11/29/2009 9:28:52 AM EDT
Any way you can get a hold of a tr24 with the triangle? I think that would make you faster, when I've looked through a tr24 with a cross hair I wasn't impressed.
Link Posted: 11/29/2009 12:11:32 PM EDT
Hey SuperSet, just a quick quiction: with your set up of TR24 with LaRue (LT-104 SPR I presume?) There is no interference with the rear MBUS?

Thx

Link Posted: 11/29/2009 1:26:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By harrymp5:
Hey SuperSet, just a quick quiction: with your set up of TR24 with LaRue (LT-104 SPR I presume?) There is no interference with the rear MBUS?

Thx



Yes, mBUS fits just fine
Link Posted: 11/29/2009 2:07:24 PM EDT
Thx SuperSet! Funny that on LaRue web site it says the LT104 is too low for MBUS.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=30

Link Posted: 11/29/2009 7:53:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2009 7:54:13 PM EDT by SuperSet72]
Originally Posted By TexAg10:
Any way you can get a hold of a tr24 with the triangle? I think that would make you faster, when I've looked through a tr24 with a cross hair I wasn't impressed.


Maybe. I plan on running the same classifier using an EOTech and then the TR24 green triangle as well. But, I have reservations about the TR24 triangle in that it's difficult to shoot long distance due to the reticule (at least for me). I think other shooters should run the classifier too and post their results so we can all learn from them.

Originally Posted By harrymp5:
Thx SuperSet! Funny that on LaRue web site it says the LT104 is too low for MBUS.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=30



Not sure why LaRue mentions that. Mine does fit.

Link Posted: 11/30/2009 12:08:07 AM EDT
Nice job dude, good analysis and interesting results. Have definitely found it a little harder to shoot on the move with my Meopta than with an RDS. Support side is way harder with my non-dominant eye looking through the Meopta, usually end up closing my right eye to get a good sight picture –– need to practice that more to get better.
Link Posted: 12/4/2009 7:06:31 AM EDT
Are you shooting with a NTCH position and do you have any eye relief issue w/ the 104? I am thinking i may need the SPR-E.

T
Link Posted: 12/4/2009 8:32:31 AM EDT
The SPR 1.5 may be too low for SOME BUIS when the scope in the mount has a big ocular lens housing. On my AR10 setup, only the KAC 300M will fit.

Link Posted: 12/4/2009 8:58:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexAg10:
Any way you can get a hold of a tr24 with the triangle? I think that would make you faster, when I've looked through a tr24 with a cross hair I wasn't impressed.


This.





Bill
Link Posted: 12/4/2009 9:15:47 AM EDT
Thanks! Helluva review!
Link Posted: 12/4/2009 11:04:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TAT2:
Are you shooting with a NTCH position and do you have any eye relief issue w/ the 104? I am thinking i may need the SPR-E.

T


I shoot a smidgeon back from NTCH and the LT-104 works fine for me. However, I can see how using an SPR-E would make it easier for tight NTCH shooters since the eye relief at 1X is long.
Link Posted: 12/11/2009 5:07:48 AM EDT
thanks for sharing your findings
Link Posted: 1/26/2010 2:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2010 2:35:54 PM EDT by JimJones]
Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
Originally Posted By TexAg10:
Any way you can get a hold of a tr24 with the triangle? I think that would make you faster, when I've looked through a tr24 with a cross hair I wasn't impressed.


Maybe. I plan on running the same classifier using an EOTech and then the TR24 green triangle as well. But, I have reservations about the TR24 triangle in that it's difficult to shoot long distance due to the reticule (at least for me). I think other shooters should run the classifier too and post their results so we can all learn from them.

Originally Posted By harrymp5:
Thx SuperSet! Funny that on LaRue web site it says the LT104 is too low for MBUS.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=30



Not sure why LaRue mentions that. Mine does fit.

http://www.freephotoserver.com/f08/u9152081.jpg


What do you have wrapped around the power adjustment ring? It looks like it would be faster to adjust the power on the scope with that?


Edit/ Nevermind
Found them here:
http://www.3gunstuff.com/accupoint.htm
Link Posted: 2/14/2010 12:14:47 AM EDT
ETA: Added TR24 green triangle results (13 Feb 2010).
Link Posted: 2/14/2010 1:52:22 PM EDT
3. What wasn't surprising is that the green triangle is tougher to shoot long-range vs. the TR24 German No. 4. This especially becomes apparent on 300y+ poppers since the double vertical lines make it more difficult to use holdover. But when it comes to averages, the triangle still performs better than the T-1 + magnifier combo when it comes to long-range.


What if u dialed your come up for the 300 and 350 yard flasher instead of holding over on these targets? This would eliminate the issue w/ the black lines/triangle blocking the target and increase the probability of a first round hit. The TR24 has a nice elevation turret that is easy to dial. Many 3 gun shooters are finding it is faster to dial and hold on the plate than slinging rounds trying to hold-over. Just a thought.

Thanks for the review.
Link Posted: 2/14/2010 2:46:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2010 3:22:08 PM EDT by SuperSet72]
That's a good point as I'm not properly practiced with dialing in the elevation vs using holdover. Outside of that, some of the top shooters in my area are all using holdovers so I've been defaulting to that preferred method for long-range shooting.

ETA: Also adding El President rifle drill. The Triangle is only a little bit faster than the German.

Link Posted: 3/15/2010 11:01:08 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/17/2010 9:05:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2010 9:06:01 PM EDT by vicious_cb]
Anyway something to add about holdovers using the green triangle. The elevation turret has 24 MOA per 1 revolution for a reason
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