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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:05:39 AM EDT
[#1]
This is not a flame, it's a philosophy perspective.
We live in a society of men. We need to cooperate for the society to function and survive. We live in an imperfect world. Imperfect Human beings create machines. Sometimes unintended errors are introduced into those machines. A good QA program cannot catch every error. Only by using the product in its intended operating environment can all chance of error be eliminated. It is unreasonable to expect every product to be perfect 100% of the time. That is an impossible goal. Ever had to take a brand new car back to the dealer to fix a non-operating inside light. Or brought home a new TV, plugged it in and had it go FZZT! Would you say Ford or Panasonic make lousy products because that happened occasionally? So a particular brand of magazine or an individual magazine itself can only really be put through it's paces in a rifle after firing several courses of ammo through it. Nobody would buy a magazine as new that had been fired 10 times. And the cost of that magazine would sky rocket due to the ammo and time expended. The point is both the vendor and the consumer have obligations in the deal. If the product is found to be defective, the purchaser really has a moral obligation to give the vendor/manufacturer an opportunity to make it right. Just like returning the TV to Sears for a replacement. Now on the other hand, the vendor has an obligation to set things right. And if they want to continue their livelihood they will. If Larry took our money and said "Tough Shit, deal with it" like some manufacturers do, then instant flaming and smearing his name would be entirely warranted and appropriate. But Larry is a good man and a smart businessman. So he acts to preserve his reputation and make his customers happy, while providing a hell of a product at a hell of a price. He has been extremely honest on this board describing engineering setbacks, employee quality assurance problems and correcting buyer's remorse (such as switching our SS springs for those who originally purchased CS but don't like the rust). So I think what Larry's supporters are saying is give the man a chance. Do not place unreasonable expectations of perfection. Do your part and allow him to make it right. If he does not live up to his end of the societal bargain, then flame on! |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:29:25 AM EDT
[#2]
If C Products was selling several runs of bad mags, I could understand the negative posts, but for someone to expect everything that comes off the line to be perfect is absurd. Shit happens, and when it does Larry will take care of you.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:49:18 AM EDT
[#3]
C-products would have never made a teflon magazine if they didnt get complaints about the Dry film & marlube finish mags. By discusssing openly a product we ended up with a superior magazine (teflon) that is resistant to scratches.
DesertAIP I repsect your perspective and agree with many points you make. Larry does make a quality product and stands behind his magazines. Again this topic is not to Bash a product but only to ask that the "bullying" by some stop to keep quiet about mags issues. What i was trying to convey is when a person gets a bad mags. People act as though they are malicioslly bashing Cproducts, not the case. When in fact they are doing everyone a favor by giving an honest review of the product they received. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:50:46 AM EDT
[#4]
Sir, My point exactly.. I dont think An honest unbiased opinion is a negative post. In fact its a gun buyers "consumers report". If no person ever mentioned that Some Romanian AK's have Canted Sights I would not know to watch for that when buying. Same with Stag Front sight being canted. Its not a flame but only information to make sure you get a quality product. Posting about FSB did not stop from buying a Stag upper. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:59:52 AM EDT
[#5]
I agree with you 100%. Posting an honest review or experience is not "bashing". Anyone who thinks it is should STFU. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 1:12:43 AM EDT
[#6]
goodoleboy - I think we're in violent agreement!
 Your point regarding teflon is well taken. As long as people don't shoot from the hip and whine at the drop of a hat, a reasonable, well considered discussion can take place. And ultimately we all benefit. 
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Posted: 2/22/2007 1:16:30 AM EDT
[#7]
I agree with you, and understand the intention of the point, it just seems that following one thread of "my mag/lower/etc is screwed up" there seem to follow dozens of similar posts trying to accomplish nothing. Trust me, I agree it turns into a flamefest when someone disagrees with the collective mind, but what I think it spawns from is that (at least I've noticed) there are a lot of posts bashing Larry, and 99% of us have had great dealings with him, so it happens as a knee jerk reaction. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 2:23:14 AM EDT
[#8]
I agree with you 100%. Posting an honest review or experience is not "bashing". Anyone who thinks it is should STFU. Well said, honest reviews or experience is not bashing and should be encouraged. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 2:44:22 AM EDT
[#9]
Way off. 
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Posted: 2/22/2007 6:26:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Well said. There does seem to be some hysteria on mag issues with a lot of 'me too' piling on. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 7:20:53 AM EDT
[#11]
If you have a problem with a aftermarket magazine, I think it would best to get in contact with the manufacture first and see if they can help you out.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 9:41:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Exactly, stop your hand wringing and only make problems public when you have exhausted your channels with the manufacturer  The reason?????Everything gets blown out of proportion on the internets and CP and others get reamed for nothing |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 9:49:56 AM EDT
[#13]
Posting a thread about how you got some mags from CP or whoever that don't work is not "reaming for nothing", particularly when accompanied by pics that show obviously defective mags like the incorrectly welded ones. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 9:52:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Just stick with NHMTG/OKAY or CENTER MAGS and avoid the whole friggin shitstorm all together!
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Posted: 2/22/2007 9:53:34 AM EDT
[#15]
I agree. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 10:15:27 AM EDT
[#16]
I don't understand why its so difficult to just return these to the manufacturer for exchange before you broadcast your plight on the airways? Will he not replace the mags, no questions asked? What more do you want? Why publish your plight? |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 10:17:59 AM EDT
[#17]
So that others will know of potential problems with a prodcut. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 11:16:12 AM EDT
[#18]
Exactly. I don't have enough time on my hands to be shipping shit back and following up on returns and checking on the status and such. People always say the same thing about the crappy base model Springfield 1911 pistols. "why don't you just send it back?"... Screw that! Why should I have to go thru a shitload of aggrivation because there's a great warrantee on a piece of shit? I like to buy something and be done with it. So getting a wide array of feedback on a product has value to me. Regardless of the companies willingess to make it right... I don't want the hastle. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 11:45:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Larry says no mags were received back that were defective.
Seems those posting have not taken up the issue with CP yet? Don't you see a problem with that? I guess anybody can start trolling by complaining about "alleged defects"? Problems that may, or may not exist? You cant question their motives???? Is that right and just and fair? |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:02:40 PM EDT
[#20]
So how come several different people are not only reporting some problems with the mags, but also that they returned magazines and got replacements?
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=313491&page=4  "I sent nine out-of-spec mags back and just tested the replacements. All perfect. Seems the quality control issues have been solved." Now look, I've never met Rodent, but from what I know of him I can't picture him making that up. Sounds like Cproducts is plugging away at taking care of the few problem mags out there, but calling everyone who brings up a complaint a liar seems pretty ridiculous. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:23:01 PM EDT
[#21]
This site allows users to share their firsthand experiences with products with other users so that they can make informed decisions about their purchases. That's the beauty of a web community. I think everyone should have no reservations about giving a straightforward account of a product, whether good or bad.
If someone with a little too much emotional interest invested in their pet brand gets upset at some less-than-favorable opinions, then too bad. This site is a two-way street. The word-of-mouth advertising here can make a product just as easily as it can break a product. The quality of the product will ultimately decide which way it goes. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 12:30:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Well I feel obligated to post here because some of it pertains to me. In April/May of 06 I bought 100 Cproducts mags, based on the glowing reviews posted here. Nobody had any problems with Cproducts mags. Out of those, around 15-20 had issues. Some the buyer fixed, some the mag was total junk. I have 2, that will probably never get returned. 1 of them, a floorplate tab was broken off by someone installing a Ranger plate. The other one, the follower doesn't go all the way down. Parts were swapped with a good mag, to single out the mag body as being out of spec. Larry offered to replace both of them, even the one that was broken during the ranger plate install. In no way would I expect him to replace that one, even though he offered. He also said to send all the bad ones back for replacement. I think that's great. I asked for all the bad mags back from whoever had them now. Nobody gave any back to me. So there's nothing I can do about that. My guess is that they were cheap enough that they just got tossed, or they are being used as training mags. I don't have the time to send my 1 mag back. I suspect many people feel the same way. Cproducts customer service is great. Larry seems like a really nice guy. If I was making that initial purchase today, I would not go with Cproducts based on the posts I'm finally seeing, and I've seen quite a few, not just here. Maybe someday I'll feel like I can buy from Cproducts again, but I probably won't. Okay's, D&H, Labelle, are all available for close to the same price, and more importantly they come with piece of mind for me. I don't feel these brands are seeing the kind of failure rate I've experienced with Cproducts. The reason this matter is just getting posted by me, is because, I'm seeing a lot more problems with them being posted, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, that I just got a bad batch. I don't see a reason to needlessly pile on a company, for an isolated manf. defect. Now the defects don't seem so isolated.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 1:23:01 PM EDT
[#23]
MouseBoy, are you affiliated with Larry in any way? Just a co-inky-dink that you are in CT?
Your posts seem 'shilly' to me. 
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Posted: 2/22/2007 3:27:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Freedom of speech is a good thing. I would hate for this forum to end up like gunsnet, where people are banished for negative comments about their advertisers. It's nice to have some place to go to get the truth.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 7:02:23 PM EDT
[#25]
wow +1 tp that. that is also the second post by MarkM that has been creative and made sense. You get a gold star. On a serious note, i had a bad batch of mags. I posted in several threads my first hand experience on fact based findings. Didn't bash the maker just stated issues and hoped for a corrective plan of action. |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 9:57:14 PM EDT
[#26]
 Humor is good  Never met Larry, never talked to Larry, nor do I own any C Products mags. I do own some D&H mags, OKay, Colts, Labelles, Sanchez + others. I have owned nearly every type of AR15 mag in the past including Orlite, Thermold and the crappy USA and ProMags. Here is my opinion of the situation based on what I have read.........Remember, this is my opinion based on my observation of this, and other similar situations that have occurred on this board over the past 6 years. You certainly have a right to disagree. 1) I think Larry is an innovator in our field. Who else has been offering stainless mags, new straight 20 rounders, new 9mm mags, 6.8 mags and 7.62 mags??? 2) I think Larry has been 100% in his customer service; I have yet to hear of any bad mags that would not be exchanged. 3) I would bet Larry has sold thousands of mags (maybe 100Ks). I would bet, like any other good manufacturer, there is some failure rate. 4) Based on the number of mags sold and the reported failures, the failure rate appears really low. 5) I remember all of the posts purporting D&H magazine "failures" that just mysteriously disappeared. 6) I have seen people bash products without proof, just to troll for some sort of personal gain. 7) Some people probably ARE having problems with their CP mags 8) Having witnessed the D&H posts in the past, and knowing how perfectly good products can get kicked to the curb, I'm skeptical of some that report problems 9) I know ProMags suck for a fact 10) I see no posts about problems lately about ProMags (that clearly suck) 11) Larry has done us right due to No. 1 and 2 above. 12) I think that in order for folks like Larry continue their innovation, they should be given some sort of "due process." We seem to be getting only one (1) side of the issue here. Where are the thousands of happy customers? 13) I don't think its necessary, given the circumstances, to create an arena of accusations at this point. I think the "ammoman' situation deserved the reaction at the time due to his poor attitude. Again, Larry has been 100%. Yes, I think the 1st Amendment is necessary and these kinds of discussions can be informative and helpful to both manufacturer and consumer. But I question someone saying "they are afraid to post." Thats either unfortunate and unnecessary or trolling. If you come forth with a review that exposes a defective product, you should be prepared for critical review and skepticism. Or do you just want a forum to rant without any question or accountability? |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 2:51:17 AM EDT
[#27]
I said others bullying becuase one has a strong following make it where others are afraid to post...In fact I never said a bad thing A CP products mags. Everyone knows IF we had a policy of posting ONLY posistive reviews this forum would be useless. In fact when I buy an item I get consumer reviews from forums, the truest way to get an unbiased opinion. |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 3:33:39 AM EDT
[#28]
The 1st Amendment is a prohibition against .gov editing arfcom. This is a private forum where we post at the sufferance of the owners. Arfcom "due process": attempt to resolve issue with manufacturer/vendor. If they bloe you off, then post. |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 4:41:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Larry says no mags were received back that were defective.
Mouseboy please copy and paste the post that I said we have had no defective magazines returned. AIMLESS please copy and paste the post that I called anyone at any time a liar. I do not have a problem with anyone posting a defective magazine on this forum. All I have ever asked is for you to return it so we can test and learn from a possible mistake. Quality in the manufacturing environment is a learning and improvement daily process. I spend 3 weeks out of every month at the plant in Connecticut and part of what I do is review returned product. Every return is logged, inspected and if need be test fired and then a decision is made as what to do. In the last 2 weeks we have had 8 returns for various reasons. Out of the 8, 4 returns were absolutely correct. One return was for over 100 magazines. I am embarassed to admit, but they were so bad, we scraped every magazine including the assembly person who shipped them. We discovered from that rejection a very serious internal problem with an assembler. From a return we discovered a problem with some followers out of dimension, which we are working with the supplier to correct. We would not have discovered this problem without the return and the exchange of information from the person returning the magazine. Let me explain exactly what I mean.....we dimensionally inspect 5 magazines per hour at random off the welding machines. When they come back from heat treat it is done again. After assembly each magazine is depressed to the capacity of the magazine 3 times before being sealed in the poly bag. Plus each magazine is magwell tested for fit. That all being said we did not catch the follower sticking problem until some magazines were returned. The problem only showed up when the magazine was loaded to capacity. We have since put in a test for this problem and it should not happen in the future. Point is, We take quality very seriously and when I read posts like the ones on this thread I am not pissed at anyone for posting it, I am very upset at our process. Do I know if any of those returns were from anyone posting on this thread? No! I do not know real names. But if everyone wants to make this forum an equal exchange of information, when you send back a magazine include your AR15 name and I will post the results of our tests on this forum under your AR name. No ones real name will ever be used. I am always available to talk with, just pick up the phone and let me know your concerns or suggestions. Last, the post concerning a person from Connecticut, he has no affiliation with C Products and we ship between 20-25,000 magazines per week. And thanks for your input. Larry C Products |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 5:01:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Larry thank you for posting.. I appreciate your hands on approach you give to us on the forum. You are probally the only owner/manufacuter on the forum that does so that i know of. Doing so gives many of us confidence in your product, something a posting of a bad mag wont disway us once a problem is addressed. Many including Myself Only purchase your mags for our AR rifles and will continue our practices far into the future. |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 5:05:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Having read all of the above, I believe Larry and CProducts are doing the best they can to run a small business. Perfect? No. Customer oriented, yes.
This is not from a pro biased perspective. My one and only purchase from Cproducts to date were 7.62 mags. Immediately after purchase I started reading about problems with the mags, and how CProducts was working on a fix. One year later the mags are still unused, in the wrapper waiting on a fix. Am I happy about the wait, or the cost to ship the mags, back for replacement? No, but I'll give them some slack because it looks like they try hard. Will I buy more mags? Not until the current issues are resolved. I would not know of any of these issues without the free exchange of information we have here, and I am grateful for it. Some posters believe any comment is criticism, while others believe every post deserves a good argument. I believe constructive comments strengthen the herd, and I appreciate this and other forums, and the willingness of Manufacturers like Larry to come here and show a willingness to improve their products. My .02. |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 5:10:13 AM EDT
[#32]
I remember being on the receiving end of that implication at LEAST once for posting the fact that there had been a few replies on this site regarding problems with Cprod mags. Now since you don't see that kind of reply in regards to CPROD any more, I don't put negative comments about CPROD in my posts anymore. If for example someone comes on this site and asks "hey! what do you think of D&H magazines?" I'm going to give them an honest answer. "Based on the Q.C. issues with D&H reported by members of this site, I would not buy them." |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 6:54:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Exactly. Those who read the reveiw can then decide if they are willing to play the QC lottery. It's only "bashing" when its the product/company of the month getting a bad reveiw. Nobody ever gets accused of "bashing" RGuns, botach, ammoman, GPSS, Sortsmans guide, ARMs, Oly even though most of those had strong followings here in the past. Eventually people figure out the "bashers" are reporting real problems. I had some problems with mag bodies from Cproducts last summer. I may have been the first person to ever post anything negative about them, and boy did i get flamed for it. so what, thats not going to stop me from posting an honest evaluation of any product. I sent to mag bodies back and after some back and forth. i eventually got replacements that all work great. CProducts has excellent customer service and i havent read any allegations otherwise. however i can understand the frustration of exchanging mags when you figure it cost about $7.00 to function test a mag in one rifle. i dont trust a mag until its been function tested in every rifle. since i own 10 AR's that's 280rnds just to function test one mag. So the financial costs of acting as the final QC for amnufacturer are significant. I'm glad we have the option of buying Cproducts mags. I think the mags they make now are better than the mags they made even 6 months ago. But there are other brands out there that have performed better IME as well as others that have performed worse. All you can really do is pay your money, take you chances and dont trust any mag you have not function tested yourself. |
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Posted: 2/23/2007 7:46:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Exposing defective products is necessary, good and should happen.
Those that claim a product is defective also require scrutiny. Unfortunately, there have been quite a few charlatans in the history of the internet with false claims. Those individuals who are too thin skinned to be subject of scrutiny should not post If those that claim a product is defective are bashed unreasonably, this is very wrong. Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen anybody get reamed for coming forth with CP problems. Maybe a reference to such treatment would be in order. My personal credo is when I have problems with a product, I take it up with the manufacturer and 99% of the time the problem is solved. I don't post it on the internet, unless I cant get the problem resolved with the manufacturer. The reason is, I understand these things can get blown out of proportion on the internet. I think that folks that sell products deserve to be treated fairly, just like everyone else. Fewer people will sell products on the internet if there exists the risk they will get "kicked to the curb" without justification. I just don't see how anyone can interpret this philosophy as "repressive"? or repressing views? or preventing the healthy review of products? |
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