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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 3/14/2006 12:15:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 12:58:08 AM EDT by Rekced]
I'm asking because my brother in law is in Iraq and told him I got a Bushmaster on the phone. He was saying they'd see guys there were all amped up on stuff and it was like they were getting hit with a BB gun or pee shooter when they hit w/ the 5.56. He said there were many cases where they'd get nearly a dozen solid shots before the guy would go down. But when guys get hit with the .308, they DROP. This not the kind of guy who would ever lie.

This conversation made me look at my AR differently. I kind of assumed the .223 ball would perform pretty well when hitting soft tissue like that so it could flip and fragment. Apparently that's not always the case.

Another thing that surprises me is how people on this forum and in love with heavy bullets for personal protection or carry. Wouldn't the heavier bullet be too slow for the 5.56 to perform the way it's supposed to?

Thanks for helping me understand.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:41:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 2:15:39 AM EDT
Well I saw a guy on COPS who was "amped" up on PCP and attacked 2 cops in the process of punching a large hole through a picket fence and trying to climb through it. He was a large naked black man if anyone remembers seeing the same episode. Probably one of the best episodes other than the Cop getting his car stuck on the train tracks. But anyways, it seems to me that if you are "amped," or "high," on anything that it will limit your normal inhibitions or limitations and make you go crazy. So I dont know that I think the difference between a .308 and a regular .223 is legit unless you are dealing w/ someone really f-ed up. Then maybe if you fail to hit them in a vital spot it could play a part. But with a 30 RD magazine in an AR I feel confident in being able to put down a person if I think they are going to do me enough harm.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 2:25:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 2:25:55 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
As noted by ColSanders above that's why we have the AMMO-FAQ and other important Ammunition questions and answers concerning AR15/M16s Tacked to the top of the Ammunition Forum where they can be found easily.

FWIW, this is why all my M4s are 1/7 twist and shoot both the 75grn match HPBT (Hornady bullet) and the new MK262 Mod? 77grn Sierra MatchKing (Sierra bullet) which are tops for self-defense rounds and very accurate to boot.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:44:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 5:50:15 AM EDT by thebigruss]

Originally Posted By Rekced:
I'm asking because my brother in law is in Iraq and told him I got a Bushmaster on the phone. He was saying they'd see guys there were all amped up on stuff and it was like they were getting hit with a BB gun or pee shooter when they hit w/ the 5.56. He said there were many cases where they'd get nearly a dozen solid shots before the guy would go down. But when guys get hit with the .308, they DROP. This not the kind of guy who would ever lie.

This conversation made me look at my AR differently. I kind of assumed the .223 ball would perform pretty well when hitting soft tissue like that so it could flip and fragment. Apparently that's not always the case.

Another thing that surprises me is how people on this forum and in love with heavy bullets for personal protection or carry. Wouldn't the heavier bullet be too slow for the 5.56 to perform the way it's supposed to?

Thanks for helping me understand.



No offense to your bro-in-law, but most likely this is another instance of someone's pre-conceived notions influencing their supposed "observations". Throw in a little hyperbole and a whole lot of here-say and what you've got is a round that doesn't perform like the widespread experience and scientific testing says it should.

No, we don't think your brother is lying by any means, but history is repleat with individuals who take second hand accounts and turn them into personal experience or even fact, and then add a little flourish of exageration just to keep the listener interested. (i.e.: "Did you know <insert urban legend here>? I swear its the truth! My brother's sister's former room mate's 2nd removed cousin told me, and I trust him completely!") I'm sure we've all done it at some point (check your forwarded email sometime if you don't believe me). However, that's no reason to abandon actual facts when assessing 5.56 killing potential.

Consider, for example, what he said about a dozen 5.56 rounds being needed to bring a guy down. Now you can't get a better example of hyperbole than this. Didn't this statement set off your bullshit alarm in the least bit? I don't care what a guy is amped up on (and by the way, where did this weird rumor start that everybody in Iraq is hyped up on drugs that cause them to be wild animals in combat? I hardly doubt they have the resources or infrastructure to obtain such vast quantities of PCP or other type drugs) it doesn't take more than a few shots to take someone down, unless they're armored, you're using Wolf, or you can't shoot for shit. A couple of COM hits will bring anybody down, as long as it's quality NATO spec.

To answer your question about heavier bullets, consider the fact that a heavier bullet simply trades some added weight for a little less velocity. This means you've got a bullet with roughly equivalent inertia from the same size cartridge as a lighter bullet. The upshot of this is the heavier bullet will have similar fragmentation range as the lighter bullet, but now there's a lot more to fragment and a lot more damage done to the target. About the only downside is cost per round and needing a tighter twist barrel, but it's worth it.


ETA: And by the way, saying that someone "would never lie" is like pissing in the air and telling me it's raining. The only kind of person who never lies is one who is surrounded by people who'll believe anything.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:14:36 AM EDT
WHY HAVE I SEEN ALOT BIG DEER SHOT WITH A LITTLE 22 LONG RIFLE DROP DEAD?

250 plus pound PIG drop dead with a single shot of a 22lr Farm Pig/hog

in the wind raining GOOD ONE
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:35:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebigruss:
No offense to your bro-in-law, but most likely this is another instance of someone's pre-conceived notions influencing their supposed "observations". Throw in a little hyperbole and a whole lot of here-say and what you've got is a round that doesn't perform like the widespread experience and scientific testing says it should.



Right on.

The same thing happened in WW2. At least half the GIs were convinced that the M1 Carbine was a pipsqueak weapon and was worthless by the side of the mighty Garand. Yet, the Army conducted a study on that very subject using after-action reports and forensics, and they found that the carbine and the Garand produced exactly the same kinds of wounds. The Garand could produce those wounds at a far greater distance, but it didn't have any measurable advantage in "killing power".

Fast forward to Vietnam. . . Once again GIs just couldn't believe the newfangled M16 "Mattel toy" or "poodle shooter" could possibly be as deadly as their big, heavy, shoulder-pounding M14 rifle and its big, heavy cartridges. Yet, objective studies into the question showed that the M16 was typically causing more destructive injuries. (Which we now know was due to the bullets fragmenting. It took a while for the mechanism to become clear.)

From what I gather. . . There have been some legitimate problems with the lethality of SS109 / M855 ammunition. The bullet is complicated to make, and there is some variation between different manufacturers and lots, with some fragmenting more easily than others. Also, the adoption of M4 carbines, with their short barrels, seems to have compounded the problem. Reducing the velocity makes fragmentation even more spotty.

Then there was the experience in Somalia, where the M855 ammo performed poorly by most accounts. All of these bullets must pass through several inches of flesh before they yaw and fragment. There was a reason why the GIs referred to the Somalis as "skinnies" -- they didn't have that all many inches of flesh for a bullet to pass through. hinking.gif

So yeah, there is room for improvement. Improved bullets have been developed and are still being developed for the 5.56mm cartridge. And there could eventually be a move to something like 6.5 Grendel (which I think looks terrific). However. . . There isn't going to be any move back to 7.62 NATO. All the talk about 7.62 being godly and 5.56 being a pipsqueak is groundless, to say it politely.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:43:36 AM EDT
hornady TAP FPD 60gn BT
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:50:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA0211:
hornady TAP FPD 60gn BT



This round won't make the 12" minimum and is a lousy choice for self-defense in the AR15.

Great for prarie-dogs or rabbits, but sucks for use on larger beasts.

The Hornady 68grn match HPBT beats this choice all to heck, (should your twist rate not allow the heavier 75grn match HPBT round).

Mike

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 9:06:51 AM EDT
Black Hills 75gr. my First pick and 77gr second out of my 14.5 LMT

If I had a 20incher I would use M193 and not give it any worry
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 10:40:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Black Hills 75gr.



Period. It's all you need.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 11:51:31 AM EDT
Its not necessarily what you hit something with but WHERE. Thats why I like some ammo more than others as it shoots much more accurately in my guns. For serious business I keep plenty of 308 Soft Point around for my HK 91. Ever see what a high powered Soft Point does to a deer or other game animal?
That said I once shot a deer at less than 35 yards with us both on the ground with a 300 Weatherby Rifle straight through the heart. The deer ran for a good 50 yards before it dropped. I have shot others in the neck or backbone and they drop to the ground instantly. Like Troy
stated it all about damaging the CNS. Which gets back to accuracy(bullet placement).....which means the weapon and ammo is accurate and the shooter true.
JRandyH
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:14:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Black Hills 75gr.


Period. It's all you need.



Is the BH 75gr. accurate out of a 1/9 16" barrel out to 200 yards?

Has there been any known problems with cycling out of any AR configuration?

S214
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:31:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 12:33:28 PM EDT by markm]


There's an M855 thread in the ammo forum right now that contradicts this Dozen hits to knock down CRAP!

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 12:39:34 PM EDT
My bushy shorty A1 15HBAR 1/9 twist shoots 77 Black hills @ 200 plus yards hit tin can all the time
used ML2
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 1:01:46 PM EDT
Right now I have Win Q3131A on hand for this. It's the same 55 grain FMJ load as the M193. But I'm getting ready to load 1000 rounds with the Win 64 grain Power Point.

I understand the idea behind yawing and fragmenting. I just think it's asking too much to of a bullet to do this reliably in something as complex a human body. A soft point bullet just has to expand. It's simple and should occur 99.9% of the time.

The only 'downside' is having to run enough ammo through the gun to be sure it's as reliable as the M193.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 1:43:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:
hornady TAP FPD 60gn BT



This round won't make the 12" minimum and is a lousy choice for self-defense in the AR15.

Great for prarie-dogs or rabbits, but sucks for use on larger beasts.

The Hornady 68grn match HPBT beats this choice all to heck, (should your twist rate not allow the heavier 75grn match HPBT round).

Mike




This is crap. It may not make the 12" FBI minimum, but that doesn't mean it's a lousy choice. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. It will also wreak havoc all along it's path, just like frgamenting 55 FMJ BT. It won't perform well against heavier barriers (auto glass, sheetmetal), but neither will OTM.

You really need to consider what scenarios you might find yourself in and what's most likely. In some cases, something like Corbon 53 DPX might be the best choice, or Win 64 PP. In others a heavyish OTM might be a better all around load. 60 grain FPD is heavy enough to be effective (don't lump this into the same category as 40-50 grain varmint bullets). To discount it as a "lousy choice" is just ridiculous.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 2:00:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rekced:
I'm asking because my brother in law is in Iraq and told him I got a Bushmaster on the phone. He was saying they'd see guys there were all amped up on stuff and it was like they were getting hit with a BB gun or pee shooter when they hit w/ the 5.56. He said there were many cases where they'd get nearly a dozen solid shots before the guy would go down. But when guys get hit with the .308, they DROP. This not the kind of guy who would ever lie.

This conversation made me look at my AR differently. I kind of assumed the .223 ball would perform pretty well when hitting soft tissue like that so it could flip and fragment. Apparently that's not always the case.

Another thing that surprises me is how people on this forum and in love with heavy bullets for personal protection or carry. Wouldn't the heavier bullet be too slow for the 5.56 to perform the way it's supposed to?

Thanks for helping me understand.




This is BS. I'm not saying that your brother in law is a lier but that's not my experience over there. 5.56 works fine. Sure there are instances where 5.56 didn't work as intended but they are fairly rare. My guys over there shot a number of people and in EACH case they dropped like a rock and must have died quickly because when we got up to them they were dead as can be.

Firefights are chaotic. You tend to just shoot at muzzle flashes. You rarely know exactly where your bullets are hitting. So it's very dificult to say that someone took solid hits and kept coming.

The 5.56 will work fine.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:10:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 4:19:36 PM EDT by DHB]

Originally Posted By Rekced:
I'm asking because my brother in law is in Iraq and told him I got a Bushmaster on the phone. He was saying they'd see guys there were all amped up on stuff and it was like they were getting hit with a BB gun or pee shooter when they hit w/ the 5.56. He said there were many cases where they'd get nearly a dozen solid shots before the guy would go down. But when guys get hit with the .308, they DROP. This not the kind of guy who would ever lie.

This conversation made me look at my AR differently. I kind of assumed the .223 ball would perform pretty well when hitting soft tissue like that so it could flip and fragment. Apparently that's not always the case.

Another thing that surprises me is how people on this forum and in love with heavy bullets for personal protection or carry. Wouldn't the heavier bullet be too slow for the 5.56 to perform the way it's supposed to?

Thanks for helping me understand.



Sorry but in response to an unsubstantiated claim that basically asserts 5.56 is totally innefective while 7.62 is totally the opposite, I have to do it.....


There are a lot of really good posts above that do a good job explaining the benefits, drawbacks, stengths, and weaknesses of this round. Even moreso if you go to http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ and read about the round there.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:54:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:
hornady TAP FPD 60gn BT



This round won't make the 12" minimum and is a lousy choice for self-defense in the AR15.

Great for prarie-dogs or rabbits, but sucks for use on larger beasts.

The Hornady 68grn match HPBT beats this choice all to heck, (should your twist rate not allow the heavier 75grn match HPBT round).

Mike




This is crap. It may not make the 12" FBI minimum, but that doesn't mean it's a lousy choice. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. It will also wreak havoc all along it's path, just like frgamenting 55 FMJ BT. It won't perform well against heavier barriers (auto glass, sheetmetal), but neither will OTM.

You really need to consider what scenarios you might find yourself in and what's most likely. In some cases, something like Corbon 53 DPX might be the best choice, or Win 64 PP. In others a heavyish OTM might be a better all around load. 60 grain FPD is heavy enough to be effective (don't lump this into the same category as 40-50 grain varmint bullets). To discount it as a "lousy choice" is just ridiculous.



My thoughts exactly. BT rounds might not be the best choice for combat situations, but I'd take the 60 grain TAP loading for bedside protection any day of the week. Also shoots well in 1:9", not that MOA accuracy is important up close.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:59:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 5:00:29 PM EDT by KwaiChangCaine]
+1
ETA:
The above post...
Forgot the "Quote"
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:51:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Silence214:
Is the BH 75gr. accurate out of a 1/9 16" barrel out to 200 yards?

Has there been any known problems with cycling out of any AR configuration?

S214



It's accurate enough out of my 1:9 carbines. No cycling issues I've run it 14.5" up to 20" barrels, including a 16" with a PRI Fatboy.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:54:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
.. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. ...




Lots of hits are in the hands/arm as the threat is most likely going to be pointing a weapon at you. People tend to focus on the weapon and the rounds end up going in that direction. Shallow penetrating rounds won't make it to the heart if they have to pass through an arm first.

Don't bet on the fact the bad guy's hands will be at his sides while he gives you a full frontal shot. Nobody is that that lucky.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:16:26 PM EDT
Let me start by saying I respect the opinions of the regulars around here. I've learned a lot from many of you. I've also read the ammo FAQ. Having expressed that, I am still confident in the 60 grain TAP load for bedside defense. Having seen what these rounds do to varmints, I have a hard time believing the hands, arms, or shoulders of any potential attacker would be very useful after being on the receiving end.

That said, my two defensive guns in ready condition as I type are loaded with Q3131A (Colt 6721) and 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dots (Sig P228).
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By jmart:
.. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. ...




Lots of hits are in the hands/arm as the threat is most likely going to be pointing a weapon at you. People tend to focus on the weapon and the rounds end up going in that direction. Shallow penetrating rounds won't make it to the heart if they have to pass through an arm first.

Don't bet on the fact the bad guy's hands will be at his sides while he gives you a full frontal shot. Nobody is that that lucky.



And if travelling lengthwise through an outstretched arm for 4-5-6" and then exiting and then re-entering the torso, do you really think whatever ends up re-entering the torso has deep penetrating capabilities? An OTM would likely yaw and begin fragmentation while in the arm. You aren't going to get textbook, gel performance out of remnants that exit and re-enter the torso. You may change the channel sufficiently to stop any further hostilities, or you may just have to shoot a 2nd shot.

Alternatively, we could have avoided these shortfalls with OTM and just gone with 53 grain DPX from the get go. There you would have had residual penetration capabilities after traversing a length of arm. Of course, in the absence of any arm to deal with, a center torso hit will easily penetrate the depth of a torso and exit in all likelihood. So now you have to have situational awareness of what lies beyond before pulling the trigger.

Nothing's perfect. But I'll say it again, don't equate 60 grain TAP with more typical 40-50 grain varmint bullets. Those just aren't relevant comparisons. And at the same time I'm not saying 60 grain TAP is the obvious, best choice. I'm just saying it's not the "lousy" choice as was suggested several posts above.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:25:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 2:28:29 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By jmart:
This is crap. It may not make the 12" FBI minimum, but that doesn't mean it's a lousy choice. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. It will also wreak havoc all along it's path, just like frgamenting 55 FMJ BT. It won't perform well against heavier barriers (auto glass, sheetmetal), but neither will OTM.

You really need to consider what scenarios you might find yourself in and what's most likely. In some cases, something like Corbon 53 DPX might be the best choice, or Win 64 PP. In others a heavyish OTM might be a better all around load. 60 grain FPD is heavy enough to be effective (don't lump this into the same category as 40-50 grain varmint bullets). To discount it as a "lousy choice" is just ridiculous.

And here: Nothing's perfect. But I'll say it again, don't equate 60 grain TAP with more typical 40-50 grain varmint bullets. Those just aren't relevant comparisons. And at the same time I'm not saying 60 grain TAP is the obvious, best choice. I'm just saying it's not the "lousy" choice as was suggested several posts above.




Originally Posted By matt33:
My thoughts exactly. BT rounds might not be the best choice for combat situations, but I'd take the 60 grain TAP loading for bedside protection any day of the week. Also shoots well in 1:9", not that MOA accuracy is important up close.

And here: I've also read the ammo FAQ. Having expressed that, I am still confident in the 60 grain TAP load for bedside defense. Having seen what these rounds do to varmints, I have a hard time believing the hands, arms, or shoulders of any potential attacker would be very useful after being on the receiving end.




No offense intended fellas, but I believe you both need Ammo Faq and tacked thread refresher courses:

Q. But what about specialty commercial rounds, like TAP, hollowpoints, and softpoints? Aren't they better than Mil-Spec ammo for defensive use?

It really depends what you are looking for. In general Soft Point, Jacketed Soft Point and Jacketed HollowPoint rounds use controlled expansion as a wounding mechanism, rather than fragmentation. The yawing effect of FMJ bullets is frustrated by JSP and JHP rounds because the nose flattens down on impact (like a mushroom) and moves the center of gravity forward on the bullet. As a result, the bullet doesn't yaw, but instead gets its stability from the transfer of the center of gravity. Generally these rounds continue forward in tissue nose-first instead of trying to turn tail-first.

Some very light JSP or JHP rounds will still fragment because their jackets are so thin and their velocity is much higher (up to 3800 fps in 40gr rounds), but this does not necessarily make their wounding capacity more dramatic than M193 or M855 primarily because their penetration depth is much lower.

Hollow-point and ballistic-tip bullets are designed as varmint rounds, to expand quickly, making large, shallow wounds with relatively little penetration. These types of wounds aren't likely to take an attacker out of the fight immediately, especially if you have to shoot through an arm or from the side. Most experts agree that at least 12 inches of penetration is required to reliably reach the vital organs, and most varmint bullets won't penetrate more than 5 to 6 inches. Although some police departments use the Hornady TAP ("Tactical Application Police") round, which is merely a hotter-loaded V-Max varmint round, the primary motivation for adopting this ammo is preventing over-penetration of both bad guys and of interior walls. It should be noted that many of these concerns are proving unfounded as testing on interior penetration is increasingly showing that 5.56 rounds are less of a overpenetration risk than even the 9mm handgun ammo that many departments deploy in submachineguns for interior raids.


And here: After a great deal of study, and the conclusion that their then-current 9mm duty loads were a failure for their purposes, the FBI set up a comprehensive set of ballistics testing protocols. These represent a very good model to judge a rounds performance by. The FBI protocols use 12 inches as a penetration minimum in calibrated ballistic gelatin and looked for consistent 12"-18" penetration as an ideal. As a general matter, major vessels and organs can be reliably damaged with 6 inches of penetration. Ideally, then, you want a wound profile that penetrates at least 12" and does most of its damage between 4" and 12" of penetration.

There is plenty on supporting data in the same thread where this Ammo-Faq information lies, suggest you guys take a hard at it and listen to Forest above,

It don't get much better than the 75grn Hornady match hollow-point boat-tail bullet, I like them, shoot them and have them loading along with my fav the Sierra 77grn. MatchKing bullet, same round loaded into the current Mk 262 Mod 1 load.

Ballistic tips have their uses, but making minimum penetration depth ain't what their good at, nuff said.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 3:02:43 AM EDT
I also shoot the 75 Grain Hornady TAP. Quick Question though. I know that the 55 and 60 Grain TAP don't offer much penetration. How about the Winchester 64 Grain SoftPoint or Power Point (Whatever it is called)? Is that a good self defense round or is it the same as the 55/60 Gr TAP? Thanks
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 3:39:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 3:40:04 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By paulosantos:
I also shoot the 75 Grain Hornady TAP. Quick Question though. I know that the 55 and 60 Grain TAP don't offer much penetration. How about the Winchester 64 Grain SoftPoint or Power Point (Whatever it is called)? Is that a good self defense round or is it the same as the 55/60 Gr TAP? Thanks




As well noted in the Ammo-Faq tacked to the top of this forum, the Power Point is my all time favorite hunting round for 223 caliber rifles. Although I consider the 223 too small for deer I have killed several over the years with this round abeit my own loads (which are abit more accurate at further ranges than the factory fodder).

The Power Point Plus is also mentioned in the Ammo-Faq and it too is an excellent choice.

You'll have NO problem whatsoever getting and surpassing the 12" minimum penetration depth using this round/bullet as it works on an entirely different principle than "ballistic-tips".

Mike

ps - fwiw, I'm highly prejudiced in a positive manner towards this round, as if ya could not tell, it's my dedicated "hog" round....
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By jmart:
This is crap. It may not make the 12" FBI minimum, but that doesn't mean it's a lousy choice. For the vast majority of hits, it will penetrate deeply enough to get to vital organs. It will also wreak havoc all along it's path, just like frgamenting 55 FMJ BT. It won't perform well against heavier barriers (auto glass, sheetmetal), but neither will OTM.

You really need to consider what scenarios you might find yourself in and what's most likely. In some cases, something like Corbon 53 DPX might be the best choice, or Win 64 PP. In others a heavyish OTM might be a better all around load. 60 grain FPD is heavy enough to be effective (don't lump this into the same category as 40-50 grain varmint bullets). To discount it as a "lousy choice" is just ridiculous.

And here: Nothing's perfect. But I'll say it again, don't equate 60 grain TAP with more typical 40-50 grain varmint bullets. Those just aren't relevant comparisons. And at the same time I'm not saying 60 grain TAP is the obvious, best choice. I'm just saying it's not the "lousy" choice as was suggested several posts above.




Originally Posted By matt33:
My thoughts exactly. BT rounds might not be the best choice for combat situations, but I'd take the 60 grain TAP loading for bedside protection any day of the week. Also shoots well in 1:9", not that MOA accuracy is important up close.

And here: I've also read the ammo FAQ. Having expressed that, I am still confident in the 60 grain TAP load for bedside defense. Having seen what these rounds do to varmints, I have a hard time believing the hands, arms, or shoulders of any potential attacker would be very useful after being on the receiving end.




No offense intended fellas, but I believe you both need Ammo Faq and tacked thread refresher courses:

Q. But what about specialty commercial rounds, like TAP, hollowpoints, and softpoints? Aren't they better than Mil-Spec ammo for defensive use?

It really depends what you are looking for. In general Soft Point, Jacketed Soft Point and Jacketed HollowPoint rounds use controlled expansion as a wounding mechanism, rather than fragmentation. The yawing effect of FMJ bullets is frustrated by JSP and JHP rounds because the nose flattens down on impact (like a mushroom) and moves the center of gravity forward on the bullet. As a result, the bullet doesn't yaw, but instead gets its stability from the transfer of the center of gravity. Generally these rounds continue forward in tissue nose-first instead of trying to turn tail-first.

Some very light JSP or JHP rounds will still fragment because their jackets are so thin and their velocity is much higher (up to 3800 fps in 40gr rounds), but this does not necessarily make their wounding capacity more dramatic than M193 or M855 primarily because their penetration depth is much lower.

Hollow-point and ballistic-tip bullets are designed as varmint rounds, to expand quickly, making large, shallow wounds with relatively little penetration. These types of wounds aren't likely to take an attacker out of the fight immediately, especially if you have to shoot through an arm or from the side. Most experts agree that at least 12 inches of penetration is required to reliably reach the vital organs, and most varmint bullets won't penetrate more than 5 to 6 inches. Although some police departments use the Hornady TAP ("Tactical Application Police") round, which is merely a hotter-loaded V-Max varmint round, the primary motivation for adopting this ammo is preventing over-penetration of both bad guys and of interior walls. It should be noted that many of these concerns are proving unfounded as testing on interior penetration is increasingly showing that 5.56 rounds are less of a overpenetration risk than even the 9mm handgun ammo that many departments deploy in submachineguns for interior raids.


And here: After a great deal of study, and the conclusion that their then-current 9mm duty loads were a failure for their purposes, the FBI set up a comprehensive set of ballistics testing protocols. These represent a very good model to judge a rounds performance by. The FBI protocols use 12 inches as a penetration minimum in calibrated ballistic gelatin and looked for consistent 12"-18" penetration as an ideal. As a general matter, major vessels and organs can be reliably damaged with 6 inches of penetration. Ideally, then, you want a wound profile that penetrates at least 12" and does most of its damage between 4" and 12" of penetration.

There is plenty on supporting data in the same thread where this Ammo-Faq information lies, suggest you guys take a hard at it and listen to Forest above,

It don't get much better than the 75grn Hornady match hollow-point boat-tail bullet, I like them, shoot them and have them loading along with my fav the Sierra 77grn. MatchKing bullet, same round loaded into the current Mk 262 Mod 1 load.

Ballistic tips have their uses, but making minimum penetration depth ain't what their good at, nuff said.

Mike



Gel Results

Again, it ain't the ideal, but it's pretty damn good. Nuff said.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 9:22:22 AM EDT
Mr_Wilson. Thanks for the info. I just wanted some information from someone that uses it and I'm thankful for your reply. I have read the Ammo-Oracle and every other article written on ammunition, so I hope I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here. I just want some actual feedback on this round because I am considering it for work. Like I previously wrote, I use the Hornady 5.56 75 Grain TAP and I just purchased the HSM version of the 75 Grain TAP in .223 but have not shot it yet. Since you use the Winchester 64 Grain, can you tell me if you think it is a good round for LE and how accurate is it compared to the 75 Grain TAP? Thanks again.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 10:58:29 AM EDT
The reliable one-shot instant stop is a myth. Sometimes a single torso hit will drop a man like a sack of potatoes, sometimes after multiple hits a guy can run five miles.

Every person and every round acts differently. Get a well performing round, practice your accuracy, and keep shooting until the BG goes down....that's about all you can do.

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