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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/23/2005 11:16:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 12:04:06 PM EDT by HELOBRAVO]
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?
pic
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:17:38 AM EDT
Short answer......No
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:18:19 AM EDT
I've heard that these are VERY illegal...I'm not totally sure but just the same, I would stay away...
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:18:37 AM EDT
I read it's the ATF placing these ads...
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:21:39 AM EDT
So long as a licensed machine gun manufacturer is making them they are perfectly legal to make as I recall. The ones made now can only go to other dealers and such, or LE or .gov agencies, but still.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:38:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Punani:
I read it's the ATF placing these ads...




+1



Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:47:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?



Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:53:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?



img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/forrest.jpg


Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:55:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By Punani:
I read it's the ATF placing these ads...




+1






That's pretty low if it's true.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:02:05 PM EDT
I guess it would be legal if you didn't have an AR in the house?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:11:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
I guess it would be legal if you didn't have an AR in the house?



I believe you couldn't even have an AR15 PART in the house!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:34:39 PM EDT
I saw that same ad in the SGN and the first thing I thought of was that it was placed by our friendly gub'mint JBTs.

I wonder how many fools ordered one expecting to see the Big Brown Truck and instead have a big black sedan show up? "We're from the Government and we're here to help."
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:55:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?
pic



The ATF has changed the ruling on thes several times. when they first came out it was legal to own one as long as it was not installed in a AR. Then they changed the rules and said as long as the AR did not have M16 parts installed and it was not installed it was OK. Then in 1986 they made classed "IT" alone as a machine IF it was post 1986 manufacture. PRE 86 are legal to own. These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock. When they first were offered for sale they sold for 49.99. MANY years ago.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:03:34 PM EDT
Are these things literally "drop in" meaning you don't have to have the select fire hole in your receiver? I wouldn't "drop in" any fire control parts in my rifle; it seems like parts just sitting in there is asking for mechanical trouble as well as legal trouble.

Maybe I'm biased cause there's no way in hell I could afford to feed a full auto gun even if I wanted one.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:06:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tankdriver:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?
pic



The ATF has changed the ruling on thes several times. when they first came out it was legal to own one as long as it was not installed in a AR. Then they changed the rules and said as long as the AR did not have M16 parts installed and it was not installed it was OK. Then in 1986 they made classed "IT" alone as a machine IF it was post 1986 manufacture. PRE 86 are legal to own. These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock. When they first were offered for sale they sold for 49.99. MANY years ago.



I find this very hard to believe.

Seydou
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 1:14:48 PM EDT by HarrySacz]
They would still have to have a serial number and be registered.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:18:44 PM EDT
Here is what I learned when investigating this topic once before:

It is completely legal to own a PRE-81 DIAS without registering it. You can carry it in your pocket, wear it around your neck on a chain or make a pair of cuff links out of it. BUT BE WARNED! You are not allowed
to own or purchase a AR-15.

It is a crime to own a unregistered PRE-81 DIAS & a AR-15...

To be legal you have to buy a registered DIAS or RDIAS as it is often referred to. These are
worth alot more than $275 because they CAN be owned in conjunction with a AR15...

I have heard that J.A.M. Enterprises is a ATF sting operation but that is just people's opinions.

LB
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:20:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?



img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/forrest.jpg



Fucking Hilarious!!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:29:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
Here is what I learned when investigating this topic once before:

It is completely legal to own a PRE-81 DIAS without registering it. You can carry it in your pocket, wear it around your neck on a chain or make a pair of cuff links out of it. BUT BE WARNED! You are not allowed
to own or purchase a AR-15.

It is a crime to own a unregistered PRE-81 DIAS & a AR-15...

To be legal you have to buy a registered DIAS or RDIAS as it is often referred to. These are
worth alot more than $275 because they CAN be owned in conjunction with a AR15...

I have heard that J.A.M. Enterprises is a ATF sting operation but that is just people's opinions.

LB



+1
In the latest shotgun news (has build your own AK, and a RPG article as well, I believe Oct. edition) there's another company selling Drop in auto sear for $125. Ad states: no ffl required, send money order. Says nothing about NFA rules applying.

Unfortunately if it's too good to be true it probably is.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:32:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock. When they first were offered for sale they sold for 49.99. MANY years ago.



If that was true then he could sell them for 10x that price and ALL of his inventory would be
gone within days...

REAL REGISTERED Drop In Auto Sears are currently listed on other boards for $12,500 and $10,500.

I dont know if they are selling though... I know several that have sold for $6500 - $8500 range...



LB
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:39:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 1:43:19 PM EDT by M4Madness]

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Then in 1986 they made classed "IT" alone as a machine IF it was post 1986 manufacture. PRE 86 are legal to own. These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock.



Please don't spread misinformation that could send gullible people to federal prison.

The BATF classified drop-in auto sears as machineguns way before May 1986. In order to use them legally, people had to register them with the BATF and stamp a serial number on them. If their serial number isn't listed in the NFA registry (and these $275 ones are NOT), then you cannot legally use them in an AR-15, even if they are "pre-81".

Why do you think that legal ones are currently selling for well over $10,000?

The ONLY legal use for these $275 sears would be for someone who has a registered M16 that uses a drop-in auto sear instead of a mil-spec auto sear. These unmarked sears were "married" to the registered lower. If one of the original drop-in auto sears in this specific example were to break, these newer sears could legally be used to replace the defective one. But you sure as hell can't build a new M16 today with these.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 1:44:03 PM EDT by tankdriver]

Originally Posted By Seydou:

Originally Posted By tankdriver:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?
pic



The ATF has changed the ruling on thes several times. when they first came out it was legal to own one as long as it was not installed in a AR. Then they changed the rules and said as long as the AR did not have M16 parts installed and it was not installed it was OK. Then in 1986 they made classed "IT" alone as a machine IF it was post 1986 manufacture. PRE 86 are legal to own. These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock. When they first were offered for sale they sold for 49.99. MANY years ago.



I find this very hard to believe.

Seydou


Actually I was wrong on date. it is Nov 1981. Here's the info off the ATF page.

Held: The auto sear known by various trade names including "AR15 Auto
Sear," "Drop In Auto Sear," and "Auto Sear II," is a combination of parts
designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically
more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the
trigger. Consequently, the auto sear is a machine gun as defined by 26 U.S.C.
5845(b).
With respect to the machine gun classification of the auto sear under
the National Firearms Act, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 7805(b), this ruling will not
be appliedo t auto sears manufactured before November 1, 1981. Accordingly,
auto sears manufactured on or after November 1, 1981, will be subject to all
the provisions of the National Firearms Act and 27 C.F.R. Part 179.
[ATFQB 1981 -3 78]

Then they add a editors note that states as I said "Any date with all parts count as a Machinegun." So even if you hsvr a pre nov 1 1981 unit if you have M16 parts you can go to the pen.

Editor's Note
Regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession
of such a sear and certain M-16 fire control parts is possession of a machine
gun as defined by the NFA. Specifically, these parts are a combination of
parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun
and are a machine gun as defined in the NFA. (See "Important Information
Concerning AR15-Type Rifles” under “Items of Interest” in this publication.)
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:45:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
Here is what I learned when investigating this topic once before:

It is completely legal to own a PRE-81 DIAS without registering it. You can carry it in your pocket, wear it around your neck on a chain or make a pair of cuff links out of it. BUT BE WARNED! You are not allowed
to own or purchase a AR-15.

It is a crime to own a unregistered PRE-81 DIAS & a AR-15...

To be legal you have to buy a registered DIAS or RDIAS as it is often referred to. These are
worth alot more than $275 because they CAN be owned in conjunction with a AR15...

I have heard that J.A.M. Enterprises is a ATF sting operation but that is just people's opinions.

LB



100% correct
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:45:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 1:49:17 PM EDT by tankdriver]

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Then in 1986 they made classed "IT" alone as a machine IF it was post 1986 manufacture. PRE 86 are legal to own. These that the guy in Shotgun News is selling are pre 86 manf. He made a bunch up and is still selling them out of built up stock.



Please don't spread misinformation that could send gullible people to federal prison.

The BATF classified drop-in auto sears as machineguns way before May 1986. In order to use them legally, people had to register them with the BATF and stamp a serial number on them. If their serial number isn't listed in the NFA registry (and these $275 ones are NOT), then you cannot legally use them in an AR-15, even if they are "pre-81".

Why do you think that legal ones are currently selling for well over $10,000?


The ONLY legal use for these $275 sears would be for someone who has a registered M16 that uses a drop-in auto sear instead of a mil-spec auto sear. These unmarked sears were "married" to the registered lower. If one of the original drop-in auto sears in this specific example were to break, these newer sears could legally be used to replace the defective one. But you sure as hell can't build a new M16 today with these.




That is why I went to the ATF page and copied it as a warning, not the other way around.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:52:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
First I have no desire for a FA.
I do know about the sears, dates (and lack of proof of dates), and such.
I came across an ad in SGN stating:"AR-15 to M16 drop in auto sear" $275 each, NFA rules apply, COD,ect.
Are they still being made legally?
pic



It's F-troop trying to snag an un-knowing gun owner.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 2:02:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:56:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 3:57:46 AM EDT by osprey21]
I find it curious that as long as that ad had been in SGN (how many years now?), and as many times as I've heard "It's the ATF"... I've never once heard tale of an arrest being made.

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:49:27 AM EDT
What's the difference between a RDIAS and an M16 sear? I assume the RDIAS works with AR FCG parts, and the M16 sear would need to be used in conjunction with ALL M16 specific parts. Is this correct?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:54:03 AM EDT
quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html


ALL NFA RULES APPLY.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:57:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 6:57:30 AM EDT by 223semiauto]

Originally Posted By jwise:
What's the difference between a RDIAS and an M16 sear? I assume the RDIAS works with AR FCG parts, and the M16 sear would need to be used in conjunction with ALL M16 specific parts. Is this correct?




RDIAS are drop in and do not require the GI M16 Auto sear.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:13:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Punani:
I read it's the ATF placing these ads...



Isn't that the text book definition of entrapment?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:40:10 AM EDT
If you want something close to full auto get the Gattaling gun trigger add on.

Has you turn it the AR fires I think Six Times in one revolution.

I am sure someone can find the site or the guy selling it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:51:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 10:03:03 AM EDT by _DR]
oops, already been covered earlier in thread.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:59:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 9:59:40 AM EDT by Stryker]
The RDIAS is pretty much plug in play, M-16 parts are required...mine just needed a little tweaking on the upper lug to work...

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:29:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:04:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By Punani:
I read it's the ATF placing these ads...



Isn't that the text book definition of entrapment?



Correct - there is no way this is a BATF ad and if it is, they are wasting a bunch of our money because they could never get a conviction off of such a BS scheme.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:45:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 7:47:15 AM EDT by akethan]
There are 2 ads in SG News for DIAS, SU-PRESS-ON has them for $105.

I have know a couple of people who have ordered them and they are still with us.



They are considered an illegal machine gun in IN and IL. Is it really worth it?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:52:27 AM EDT
First off let me say that I don't understand any NFA laws except that you can't own a FA unless you pay a lot of money...

That being said, you guys talk alot about getting locked up if you buy and install an unregistered FA SEAR. How often do your rifles get "searched" by the ATF? Do agents hang out at the range or something and wait for someone to show up with something illegal? I know that when you have a Class 4 or 3 license that they can show up at your house and inspect your arsenal.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:45:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 8:46:37 AM EDT by Stryker]

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
I know that when you have a Class 4 or 3 license that they can show up at your house and inspect your arsenal.



Incorrect

There is no such thing as a class 3 or 4 license

And no, the ATF can not show up at your house to search. They dont even have to know where in the state the firearms are...just which state they are in

And you can get into the NFA game for less then 3 grand
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:49:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 8:51:49 AM EDT by Gregory_A]
So what you guys are saying is that I should cancel my order ?

I also*think* that if you are registered with the ATF to legally own machine guns the ATF CAN come over to your house and make sure your machine guns are properly secured in a safe.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:29:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
First off let me say that I don't understand any NFA laws except that you can't own a FA unless you pay a lot of money...

That being said, you guys talk alot about getting locked up if you buy and install an unregistered FA SEAR. How often do your rifles get "searched" by the ATF? Do agents hang out at the range or something and wait for someone to show up with something illegal? I know that when you have a Class 4 or 3 license that they can show up at your house and inspect your arsenal.



So it's OK to sell meth to little kids, right? DEA doesn't hang around your house, or by grade schools.

As for the entrapment issue, that ad would NOT be entrapment. If you were going to buy the sear from the ad, you were most likely going to buy one anyway. As long as they don't pressure you into doing something you normally wouldn't have done, it's a legal bust. If a guy keeps bothering you at a gunshow, and pestering you to buy one after you've said no, and the conversation pretty much ends in "I'll buy the damned thing if you'll leave me alone", then that'd be entrapment.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:40:15 AM EDT
The Court instructs the jury that where a person has no previous intent or purpose to violate the law, but is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime, he is a victim of entrapment and the law as a matter of policy forbids his conviction in such a case. On the other hand, where a person already has the readiness and willingness to break the law, the mere fact that the state law enforcement agents provided what appears to be a favorable opportunity is not entrapment. (For example, when the state law enforcement agents suspect that a person is engaged in the illicit sale of narcotics, it is not entrapment for a state law enforcement agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to purchase narcotics from the suspected person). If, then, the jury should find beyond a reasonable doubt from the evidence in the case that: before anything at all occurred respecting the alleged offense involved in this case, that the defendant was ready and willing to commit [a] crime such as are charged in the indictment, whenever an opportunity to commit such [a] crime were afforded, and that state law enforcement or their agents did no more than offer the opportunity to commit such [a] crime, then the jury should find that the defendant is not a victim of entrapment. On the other hand, if the evidence in the case should leave you with a reasonable doubt whether the defendant had the previous intent or purpose to commit an offense of the character charged, apart from the inducement or persuasion of some officer or agent of the state, then it is your duty to find him not guilty.

Lesson here. Buying one of those auto sears, is not entrapment.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:34:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 10:34:16 AM EDT by KevinB]
Done Deal - and nicely wrapped up by Spooge. Take it to Legal for more...
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