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Posted: 10/27/2006 5:00:48 AM EST
Up to now, pretty much all my AR15 work has been at what we typically consider as pistol distances...50 yards and closer...with an Aimpoint or iron sights, and at speed. I am thinking about seeing what my rifle can do at longer distances if I set it up differently and slow down a little bit.

We all know that a well put together SPR can be a very accurate rifle, but what about a box stock M4. If you put a quality magnified scope (such as a Leupold MK4 MR/T) on a rifle with a 14.5 - 16" chrome lined 1/7 twist M4 contour barrel and fired 77 gr. Black Hills or equivalent quality ammo through it, and fired it off a bipod or sandbag, and of course did your part, what kind of groups could you expect and at what ranges?

I am sure some of you have experimented with this. What were the results.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:05:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 5:06:04 AM EST by bigbore]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:11:34 AM EST
a friend of mine who serve in the US Army (173rd ABN) used to engage, quite esily) human targets a 300m in A-Stan. He was issued a Colt M4 w/ 4x32 ACOG.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:22:44 AM EST
Standard M4, Mark 262. Both iron sights (detachable handle) and plain Leupold Vari-X III 1.5 - 5 power scope, 500 yard E-type silhouette both prone without and with sandbag is easy. With even low magnification and mild winds headshots are do-able.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:25:45 AM EST
i would get out of the "what kind of groups" mentality and practice on the COM shooting.
try engaging 14x14 steel at different distance's. that's approximate human torso area.
in a real world scenario you may not or have time to "sight in" it will be snap shooting. i have been doing snap shooting off the f/sight with mixed results at different yardages. of course my 4x32 acog helps practice, practice, practice
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:32:10 AM EST
I have the same question on M4 accuracy at various distances - what does COM shooting mean?
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:40:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:41:26 AM EST
I assume (C)enter (O)f (M)ass.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:00:14 AM EST
There was a GySGT that outshot the entire Corps on annual quals with an M4, and that was going against the A2 at distances out to 500.
The M4 is quite capable of making the shot; the question becomes is the shooter.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:11:44 AM EST
It's the Singer not the Song. <-- Fav arfcom line I've heard in a long time.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:49:11 AM EST
Just try it. It's always something I try with new rifles(if scopeable) just to see what they'll do. Try different ammo. Probably your biggest issue will be finding somewhere to shoot out to 3-600 yds. I've got a place for 300. Then once I've found out what the rifle/ammo will do, I pull the scope. I only keep one dedicated centerfire rifle that is scoped.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 11:21:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 11:22:34 AM EST by DakotaFAL]
In the old days (80') engaging torso sized targets at ranges to 350m (380 yards) with an M-16A1 and open sights was par for the course. And the as issued and subsequently abused M-16A1 with it's lightweight barrel was not what I would have called horribly accurate (maybe 3 MOA) but was par for the course in terms of battle rifle accuracy.

Hitting people sized targets at 400 yards requires neither stellar accuracy nor specialized optics, it just requires a little practice.

A scope is nice in that it allows you to magnify the target and potentially see it better (the real challenge on a range with freshly placed targets was to see the green targets amid the green foliage background). However a scope also limits your field of view and the field of view restriction is directly proportional to the magnification. So more magnification means better ability to see a target that is in the field of view, but at the same time it greatly increases the time it takes to acquire the target in the field of view.

If you use anything over 3 or 4X you better have a really good reason and you better have really good cover and concealment to prevent the other guy from zapping you first with his rifle equipped with open sights or low powered optics. In terms of pure speed, a ghost ring rear aperture is hard to beat when you consider all the factors such as simplicity, durability, speed of acquisition and precision.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 1:02:25 PM EST
i'm gonna go with the flow on this one. if you want to move out a little further and challenge yourself more, there's no reason to buy new equipment. you should be able to engage human silhoutte targets with the setup you have now out to 300m with ease using standard m855 ball after a little practice. a little more practice and 400-500m should be doable, though the 4 m.o.a. dot on the aimpoint may start obscuring the target quite a bit at that range. you should still be able to use the irons at that range, according to the manuals. i, myself have not shot at that range yet. last weekend, though i shot a perfect forty out of forty on the army qualification course for my unit. this included 20 out of 20 shots at 300m on an E type silhouette target using a plain jane m4 (brand spanking new, though) and m855 ball.

sure you can use a magnified optic, but there really isn't much need for it inside of 300m.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 1:19:25 PM EST
With my box-stock Oly K3B Mil-4 16" CAR, and my handloads......I'm getting 5/8" groups at 100yds if I use my bypod and a bench. I can hit a pop can at 200yds without any problems at all.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:58:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
A man sized target can be hit easily by a skilled shooter at 600yds.

+1

That's with irons, BTW.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:51:16 PM EST
I watched the squadron commander of the 3-7th Cav knock down a pop-up at 800 meters using a M4 with an ACOG. Ammo was issue M855 and he was shooting off sandbags. Hit it on his 3rd shot.....
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 9:58:14 PM EST

I watched the squadron commander


Should have watched one of the NCO's... he would of hit it in 1 shot...
Apologies to all the officers... I couldn't resist...

Irons on an M4... out to 600... if you have the ability, the M4 does...
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 3:42:51 AM EST
While I appreciate all the anecdotes, some of you have misunderstood me. I know the M4 can hit a man sized target at distance. I just want to know how accurate it is. Has anybody actually grouped it with magnified optics?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 4:39:29 AM EST
RRA gives an accuracy guarentee of 1 MOA for their Entry Tactical M4gery.

I have no idea what the military aceptance standards are for the M4.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 4:43:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 4:44:50 AM EST by Dave_A]
The M4's official MER is 600-something, vs the A2's 800-something...

I'd know if we had M4s...

We don't - A2s, 249s, and heavy crew-serveds

That said, it's still a very accurate weapon - a good shooter with a 4 will beat a decent shot behind a 16...

The other way around, and the good shooter still wins - but by more...
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 5:02:38 AM EST
The MILSPEC acceptance standard for the M16 and M4 is 6 MOA or better using M855 Ball. When I was at the USAMU, Mr. Phil Crider's job was to machine rest all custom-tuned weapons, and standard weapons used in tests.

Machine-rested M16s and M4s will typically do between 1.5 to 2.5 MOA at 300 Meters, electronically measured using an Oehler chronograph and Sius-Ascor digital electronic targetry.

My Sergeant Major's Carbine grouped just at 1 MOA (3.28 inches) shooting Winchester 64 grain Powerpoints, which he has killed 4 deer with.

My M4gery does about 1.5 with 77-grain Match king reloads, and just a little better with 73-grain Bergers. It is NOT free-floated.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 5:58:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sinister:
The MILSPEC acceptance standard for the M16 and M4 is 6 MOA or better using M855 Ball. When I was at the USAMU, Mr. Phil Crider's job was to machine rest all custom-tuned weapons, and standard weapons used in tests.

Machine-rested M16s and M4s will typically do between 1.5 to 2.5 MOA at 300 Meters, electronically measured using an Oehler chronograph and Sius-Ascor digital electronic targetry.

My Sergeant Major's Carbine grouped just at 1 MOA (3.28 inches) shooting Winchester 64 grain Powerpoints, which he has killed 4 deer with.

My M4gery does about 1.5 with 77-grain Match king reloads, and just a little better with 73-grain Bergers. It is NOT free-floated.


That is exactly the info I needed. Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 6:43:16 AM EST
The RIFLE should have no problem engaging human size targets at 500yard with iron sights.

The question is........are you?

Don't worry about what groups are possible. When you get beyond 100 yards reading wind and knowing how to fire during the pause will have a HUGE effect on group size and sometimes if you even hit the target at all.

There is a lot more to long range than the basics. Its easy to learn, but takes a lifetime to master.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 9:02:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 9:12:14 AM EST by FMJ]
Useing my M4 14.5 LMT Defender w/ ML2 and Blue Box BH 77gr I shoot ragged holes @ 50 yards TIN CANS at the Berm 220yards or so

I also have a LMT M4 14.5 sitting on a Bushy/VLTOR lower and a 551 Eotech

wich I shoot about the same

LMT M4 14.5 Barrels are outstanding


For protection
I Dont think you will ever shoot past 200 yards anyway

maybe if you are in the military

Must gun fight are super close a FEW YARDs
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 9:03:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
There was a GySGT that outshot the entire Corps on annual quals with an M4, and that was going against the A2 at distances out to 500.
The M4 is quite capable of making the shot; the question becomes is the shooter.



+1
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 9:31:40 AM EST
US Army Marksmanship Unit does it all day past 600. That being said there is a difference between punching paper and killing something.

Rich
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 11:26:06 AM EST
The question should be, "What is the maximum reasonable distance that you should try to engage a target with an M-4 variant?". Yes, there are people who can make long shots with a carbine, but what is a reasonable shot to be taken with one? Why try to engage a target at a long distance, especially if you're not sure to take the target out? If you want the combination of MOUT and counter-sniper capability, then you should perhaps consider a mid-length carbine instead!
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